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Author Topic: Little leaks in my steam lines  (Read 2366 times)

morfa

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Little leaks in my steam lines
« on: August 16, 2020, 11:15:31 pm »
I am new to steam and just got my steam plant from MSM Australia.
Thrilled with the workmanship/precision but as I ready it for action I have tightened all the connections as much as I dare.
There is still some water/steam coming out of a few of connections during my shakedown.


What is the best "sealant" or "tape" to use to hopefully stop this action?
Someone told me not to use teflon tape but plumbers pipe sealant or SEAL-ALL.


Any suggestions?


http://www.morfa.ca/MSMClyde
Derek
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carlfmiller

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2020, 11:34:33 pm »
Never heard don't use tape but I know you have to be careful to not let it cover over the fitting opening. I use both the tape and the yellow teflon sealant on threaded fittings.   (belt and suspenders?) The pipe connections made with a nut and cone should not get anything, same with the filler nut where you put the water in; these are metal-to-metal connections, and need to be tightened pretty well. (get an 8mm nut driver for the latter)


I'll be interested to know how your Clyde works. I have the MSM horizontal Avon plant on order. I was trying to run an Avon  off the MSM Econo boiler  (2" vertical) but that boiler doesn't have the capacity to run the Avon as far as I could do. (MSM disagrees, I think, but I tried a lot) The price on the steam plant with Avon was like getting second Avon almost for free.I sure hope it works!


I hope you will lag the  boiler, it looks terrific when accomplished


Good luck and keep posting your success!


-Carl
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derekwarner

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2020, 11:41:29 pm »
Welcome Derek......this MSA plant is very tidy and attractive in the open launch  :-))


You have  1 x o-ring in the whistle body, 2 x soldered cones between the boiler & the engine lubricator & a gland seal adjustment in the lubricator, then onto the control valve ...[I am not sure of the sealing around the steam control valve to engine interface]


The 2 x soldered cones are designed as a metal to metal face if nipped up correctly and should not leak, the gland seal in valve can be gently nipped up to compress the assumed twist of Graphited yarn


I agree Teflon tape is not a good idea in model steam, liquid Loctite Teflon is preferable, however you shouldn't really need it


Next time you fire up your plant, photograph or nominate where this steam leakage is 


Derek
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morfa

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2020, 11:50:28 pm »
Carl,
Thanks for the advice, especially the nut cone - did not know that.
Will lag the boiler, just forgot to bring the pieces up to my cottage where I have my little shop and doing the dry runs.

Derek,
Great idea, will take a video of it and post it for more comments.
Used loctite on my propeller. Going to do a complete de-assemble redo this week and hope fewer leaks.


Thanks guys
Derek


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morfa

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2020, 06:04:04 pm »
Carl/Derek
Had a lot of fun playing with my steam plant.
Back home to do the refit with stronger connections as per your advice.


Question - even with all the little leaks it preformed well beyond my expectation. Great sounds.
I have attached a link with a 15 second clip of it in action. Near the end the second cylinder stopped.
When I check it it turns all is good - what might I look for. Do I need to open it up and look inside?


http://www.morfa.ca/Cariad.mp4


thanks
Derek
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carlfmiller

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2020, 07:15:15 pm »
Send your video to John Godfrey at MSM


john@miniaturesteammodels.com

He will know the problem. I cannot understand why the stopped cylinder is no longer moving. If that flywheel were loose the other cylinder can still operate, but the stopped cylinder is really not moving, as if jammed or the steam is blocked.  Maybe the stopped cylinder won't reciprocate without the weight of all 3 flywheels, so it may be just loose setscrew on that flywheel; find the flat on the shaft there and retighten the set screw. Make sure you check all the other set screws while you are at it. Probably 1mm allen wrench. 


Suggest do not disassemble anything it until you hear from John.

Good job catching that on video! It is useful information for everyone.

-Carl
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ooyah/2

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2020, 11:32:32 pm »
Derek,
Carl has nearly given the answer.
What has happened is that the grub screw on the drive disc has become loose and the shaft is rotating inside the disc, as the piston has stopped at B.D.C. the 2- holes in the piston to let in steam to the top of the cylinder and the bottom of the cylinder has stopped in between the 4-holes in the standard and the piston will never fire in this position.
By the looks of your short Video looking on the shaft out put the engine is running anti- clock wise, make sure that the grub screw is slack to let the shaft run thro" un- hinderred.
Turn the end that is firing anti clock wise and set the piston pin at 90 deg ( horizontal ) make sure that the offending piston is at T.D.C. and then tighten the grub screw,


You should then be able to turn the shaft and both pistons should go up and down freely, inject some steam and the engine should run, this should reset the timing, if the engine is still locked before injecting steam contact the manufacturer as suggested.


One of the most common mistakes that newcomers make is to inject steam at the W.P. ( working pressure ) with the throttle fully open and the engine revs go ballistic, this causes undue torque to the drive discs on the shaft and they then slip, so keep the revs down with an occasional burst to see that all is well.  It's best to keep full revs when in the water with the engine under load


George.


P.S. welcome to the forum.

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derekwarner

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2020, 11:35:59 pm »
Derek...just a few points


1. All scale oscillating steam engines will displace steam from the valve faces....even full sized engines exhibited the same
2. Any steam from the engine is masked by the steam discharge from the de-oiler....this discharge needs to be elevated to near the chimney top
3. I am not a fan of silicone tube for the exhaust line...it is just open to questionable integrity
4. Clearly the outboard [propeller end] Crankshaft Web is not adequately secured to the Crankshaft Pin as the Web during the engines rotation is seen floating aft, then back in
5. I certainly agree with Carl......check the security of HPGS etc, but do not open up the engine....send the video back to MSM displaying this apparent looseness, and follow the advice offered


Derek
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Derek Warner

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derekwarner

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2020, 11:50:46 pm »
Derek.......I think George [ooyah/2] has hit the nail on the head ...[I was not sure of the MSM method of construction].....


Following image is the potential loose HPGS...


Still would be good to send that same Video to MSM and await their response.......this should also include the checking of the additional HPGS in the crankshaft, and their recommended timing check procedure before closure


Derek
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morfa

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2020, 02:18:09 am »
Thank god for a great forum. I did some tightening and it felt like the second cylinder was loose.[/size]I am going to lag my boiler this week and hope to read carefully through the forum advice and try to start her up again.Thanks for being there - very helpful and reassuring.Cheers,No longer lost in Canada.Derek
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ooyah/2

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2020, 09:56:46 am »
MORFA.
Derek,
The picture that Derek has posted is exactly as I have described, however he has circled No 1 piston when the problem is in No 2 piston.
If you look at the picture you can see that No 1 cylinder is set at 90 deg ( parallel to the horizontal ) and No 2 cylinder is at T.D.C, if you set them like that and as explained the engine will work again.


However you will need some method of turning the engine over, usually when a flywheel is fitted this allows you to turn the engine over.


To explain further , when steam hits the cold cylinders it condensates and turn to water, this creates a hydraulic lock and you need to turn the engine over by hand while the steam is still turned on, this then clears the condensate thro' the cylinder and standard faces.
An other way is to move the control valve by switching back and forth until the engine runs and spits out any condensate formed.


Now before turning on the steam ensure that the engine can be turned over by hand and turns freely, if it still locks there may be some condensate trapped in the No 2 piston , make sure that the control valve is fully open to either left or right and turn the engine over which should clear any condensate.


Here are some pics of a Stuart Turner "V" twin engine that I refurbished for an old mate who had made a complete mess of the drillings, I post this as you will see what I was on about the engine stopping at T.D.C. or B.D.C.


The steam holes in the standard are similarly positioned as in your engine and if the 2- holes in the piston stop between these holes the piston will not get any steam to start the engine,


The second pic shows the plugged holes in the standard machined ready to receive the piston.


The last pic shows how I turn the engine over without a flywheel, I use my tap wrench.


I hope this helps to get your engine running,
George.
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carlfmiller

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2020, 09:57:19 pm »
Derek-- I built an MSM Avon, which I think is exactly like the Clyde shown here except a little smaller. I noted when I built it that the output crankshaft "floated" in the outrigger bearing, and this seemed odd so I added a collar on the output shaft to stop the float. The drive pin that engages that flywheel  (I assume what you are calling a web) is a loose fit, and MSM intends for the float to occur (which I suppose goes away once the engine is connected to the propeller shaft). I complained that the 2" boiler would not feed sufficient steam to the Avon to make it run for more than a few seconds, and MSM's first comment was for me to remove the collar. So there is designer's preference that the float you see in Morfa's movie is intentional.


I confess maybe I was injecting too much steam too soon to the engine at startup, but when it ran it was wonderful except that below 20psi it would stop. I gave up on the 2" boiler and bought a 3" boiler, and meanwhile MSM is supposed to send me a new set of cylinder springs as the possibility exists that the present springs are too strong.


With regard to the timing between the two cylinders, if I again assume the similarity between Avon and Clyde (I have no experience with Clyde) I will suggest that the crankshaft has a flat machined on it at each end, and they are at different angles on the shaft in such a way to dictate the timing. So when the loose flywheel is to be tightened onto the crankshaft, the set screw has to be tightened down to the flat on the crankshaft. Doing this means there is no operator control over the timing.


-Carl
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derekwarner

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2020, 12:03:10 am »
I could only suggest that [/size]morfa[/size] should consider contacting MSM prior to any self modification work


[having said this, something is a little cloudy here...... if the engine output shaft end crank web has a hollow pointed grub screw, [as indicated on the WEB image} surely the HPGS should be engaged so I fail to grasp that the Web should float in the visually evident manner shown]


Naturally I would hope morfa comes back with the comments & resolution provided by MSM


Derek
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morfa

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2020, 03:03:34 am »
Thanks for all the advice. Got a busy few days but will get back to the great threads and follow your advice.
No word back from John Godfrey/MSM yet.


This is for Carl - I took your advice and lagged the boiler.
http://www.morfa.ca/lagging.png
http://www.morfa.ca/steamplantinboat.png


Does this look like the right alignment for the cylinders?
http://www.morfa.ca/viewofcylinders.png
http://www.morfa.ca/viewofcylindersv1.png


Talk soon - again thanks
Derek
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derekwarner

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2020, 05:29:15 am »

morfa ......following link is for an extremely well detailed assembly of your exact same Clyde MSM engine including a 14:10 minute assembly video

https://www.argobuilder.com/assembling-miniature-steam-model-clyde-oscillating-steam-engine.html


It confirms the piston timing is 90 degrees [as on a clock face].....it may be some parallax error, but your latest image appears to have the pistons axes as 180 degrees

At 6:42 minutes into the video, clearly shows that the [propeller end] cylinder with the 2 x crank shaft webs, each of these 2 webs has a HPGS which is tightened onto the crank shaft pin


Derek
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morfa

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2020, 02:14:35 pm »
Derek,
Going into a conference call but just caught your message. I think you are right and I have set them at 180 degrees.
I have a steam friend coming over today and will go through the advice from you, Carl and George and reset the timing as per the flat of the crankshaft and the proper degree.

Also will follow advice to remove any condensate by your method.

I removed the grub nuts on one side of the coupler and put it on the shaft and used a hex driver through the nut holes to turn the crack to check it - works.

Thanks, be in touch - I will get this back in action soon with all your help.

Derek/morfa
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morfa

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2020, 08:47:11 pm »
Guys,
Thank you for all your great advice.
I believe the first mistake I made was not tightening all the screws/nuts etc.
The 2nd cylinder must have got loose.

When I went to tighten it, I did not take into account the need to make sure it was 900

In my haste, I tightened it to 1800.

Reading through the thread I found your advice re: the flat of the crankshaft and the 900 was the solution.
Success - thanks for everything. As I continue my "steam" journey I hope I can ask you more questions and grow with this hobby and group.

http://www.morfa.ca/success.mp4

Love my steam whistle but a few toots and my pressure (35 psi) drops like a stone. Will learn to use it sparingly and close to shore.

Derek
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derekwarner

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2020, 11:08:50 pm »
All good morfa ...........and as George suggests, keep your RPM down during the run-in period, and you will find the operation of the steam regulator to be far more gentle and progressive with far lower opening RPM


May I ask, what is the model/brand/kit of the open boat?......and is that the Pennant from [the current] HMS Dragon on the hull bulwark?


....when you get a chance, please post a video of the vessel under steam on the water


Derek
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morfa

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2020, 05:10:27 am »
Derek,
It was built in homage to my father and his home town Pwllheli North Wales.
Green and Red welsh colours and the country's symbol - the Dragon.


These boats were North Sea travellers between small offshore islands bringing supplies and people back and forth.


Also will watch my speed (RPM), there is little play between fast and slow.


Derek
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Jerry C

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2020, 09:34:29 am »
Anyone we might know Morfa  (Bychan)?
Jerry, Ex Pwllheli, Ex Aberdaron and now Ex Bethel. Ex Welsh Navy.
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morfa

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2020, 02:53:17 pm »
Jerry C.
My father was a WWII vet with the 47 Commando. D-Day liberation of Germany etc. Born on a farm "Morfa" by Abererch Beach.
We emigrated  in the 50's to Canada but I still believe I have welsh blood in my veins - so much so I got married in Cymru.


Part of my joining the model boat hobby is the love of the sea and its integral part of my welsh family, living past and present on the [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]Llŷn Peninsula[/color].


Thanks for asking.
Derek
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PJM

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2020, 09:09:47 pm »
Only just spotted this thread. I was in the RN when steam was all the vogue. If we had trouble sealing minor leaks we would use Heldite jointing compound. It worked for both low pressure (120 psi) and high pressure (up to 650 psi).  Available on ebay and others just stick it into google. Comes in a small tin with a brush in the lid and dries like varnish so easily removed with a brass or small steel wire brush.
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morfa

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2020, 09:58:03 pm »
PJM,
Thanks for the heads up - can't seem to find it in Canada - not in stock.
Will continue to look for it.
Cheers,
Derek
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Jerry C

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2020, 10:23:24 pm »
My dad a Gunner Royal Artillery, The Parachute Regiment, served in Palestine post war. He and mum retired to live in Abererch. I joined Blue Funnel line (Alfred Holt’s,Liverpool). Known as the Welsh Navy because of all the people from the Llyn who served. I brought my kids up in Aberdaron (a favourite childhood place). Check out my YouTube channel captainpaxo1. I sail my steam launch Wear on Llyn Padarn Llanberis.
Jerry.
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morfa

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Re: Little leaks in my steam lines
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2020, 11:07:40 pm »
I used to visit Abererch from 1961, many times — took my family back last May to celebrate our 30th wedding anniversary.
My Aunt and Uncle Jenny/Jack Owen lived on Ger-y bont. Love the village.
Derek


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