Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 12   Go Down

Author Topic: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman  (Read 9214 times)

zooma

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Never too old to learn !
  • Location: Rossendale and Formby Lancashire
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #125 on: October 27, 2020, 10:51:15 am »

See your e-mails Bob,
This may be useful if you can deal with 12" lengths. See 332/333 etc.


I have checked them out already thank you Tony (since you gave me the link this morning), and they are certainly a valuable source of supply.


https://www.wood-supplies.com/downloads/catalogue2017/Wood-Supplies-2017-Price-List.pdf

Their range of miniature wood mouldings are primarily aimed at the dolls houses makers and can be bought in 1/12 scale (!)  but their range of triangular section hardwoods is very impressive starting as small as 1/32" x 1/32".  Some of the slightly larger sizes of 1/16" x 1/16",  3/32" x 3/32" and 1/8" x 1/8" could be really helpful and they go up in small size increments right the way up to 3/4" x 3/4" - so plenty to work with!


As Tony says, the triangular sections are only made in 12" lengths, but given our limited alternatives this could be a very acceptable option for us to consider.


Some of the other wooden mouldings could also be of interest for use on our model boats - and some of them come in slightly longer 18" lengths too.


Thanks Tony - very helpful  :-))
Logged

ChrisF

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 787
  • What's my favourite cake!
  • Location: Warwick
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #126 on: October 27, 2020, 11:17:06 am »

Being as they produce it themselves it would be worth asking if they can do longer lengths. We don't really want joints in strakes. Thinking about it, the reason they probably don't do long lengths as standard is the postage. I bought some 1.0m lengths of styrene and the postage was about 17! I did make it a bit more palatable by adding some brass rod for the pulpit rails.

Interesting what they say about obechi. Certainly a good supplier for some mouldings.

Chris
Logged
Concentrating in the main, on the fine Fairey Marine boats, which is plenty for me to be getting on with!

zooma

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Never too old to learn !
  • Location: Rossendale and Formby Lancashire
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #127 on: October 27, 2020, 11:44:33 am »

Obechie:-   Pale cream in colour with a slightly coarse open grain. This is the wood commonly found in the model shops.  Jelutong can be judged to be a far superior alternative in every respect.

The above description of obechi when compared to Jelutong is interesting.

I have never used Jelutong or know if it would be superior for our intended model boat building use as we know that Obechi conforms well and suites our purpose very well, but they have identified the slightly course open grain nature of the wood correctly and on some poor examples it can even be described as being quite hairy!
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,590
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #128 on: October 27, 2020, 05:33:25 pm »

NO GO to longer than 12" because that's how they get their core stock in. I had a long chat with them this a.m. including asking the question, but they are in the dolls house business, for which 12" is ideal and to set up and do specials, allowing for the potential reject rate and the various stocks required, could be prohibitively expensive for the customer.
Sorry
Tony


Logged

zooma

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Never too old to learn !
  • Location: Rossendale and Formby Lancashire
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #129 on: October 27, 2020, 06:35:44 pm »

I want to get my motor mount inline with the prop shaft and fitted into the hull before I add the plywood side skins, but my order for a solid coupling is taking some time to arrive as I understand that all of the prop shafts and couplings from modelboatbits are "made to order" by Steve.


As I was cleaning up in the garage this afternoon (only slightly - I can hardly move in my garage until I get rid of my milling machine!) I stumbled across a piece of alloy bar that was almost the same diameter as a Powerflex coupling, so I chopped it to length, faced the ends and drilled a 5mm hole in each end (to the same depth as the Powerflex coupling) to make a quick "alignment shaft".


I was going to cross drill the holes and tap them to take a couple of 3mm grub screws - but I couldn't find any grubs screws laying around (of any usable size), so I will just use this alignment shaft as a "push-fit" so I can get on and make a plywood bed on which to fix a water-cooled motor mount.


At this stage, I am not sure if I will try to run this Swordsman with water-cooling (for the speed controller and motor mount) or not, but the motor mounts that I use are quite inexpensive and I fit them into all of my hulls as it makes it so easy to remove, share,  or change the motors  - so the "water-cooled" motor mount will be fitted whether the boat ends up running "dry" or water-cooled.


Now I need to have a "dig" in my workshop (shed) to see if I can find a suitable plywood off-cut to make a suitable bed to fix the motor mount onto.



Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 10,949
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #130 on: October 27, 2020, 06:39:30 pm »

Water cooling equals inefficient power train in my view. You need the amps going into propelling the boat rather than providing central heating.

Colin
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,590
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #131 on: October 27, 2020, 07:08:56 pm »

Waste not....Yorkshire templates!
Logged

grasshopper

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 764
  • Location: Lincolnshire!
    • A1 Hobbies Ltd.
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #132 on: October 27, 2020, 07:28:07 pm »

Regarding the long lengths of triangular section.....


Was it on Mayhem where someone created a jig to hold a dremel type tool to mill square section into triangular?
It was along the lines of a mini-planing machine.....



Logged

zooma

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Never too old to learn !
  • Location: Rossendale and Formby Lancashire
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #133 on: October 27, 2020, 08:43:54 pm »

Water cooling equals inefficient power train in my view. You need the amps going into propelling the boat rather than providing central heating.

Colin


That's an interesting thought Colin - and something I want to put to the test for my own reference .


There seems to be quite a divided opinion as to what works best regarding water-cooling (or not) and since it is not possible to compare "eggs with eggs" under "normal" circumstances my standard method of mounting all of my out-runners (and in-runners) on the same alloy mounts makes it possible for me to rapidly swap motors and ESC to get a direct comparison between running any motor with and without water cooling in any of my hulls.


I also fit 6.0mm gold connectors between all of the motors and speed controllers so again everything is quickly and easily swapped.


Personally I use water cooling mainly because I previously run .40 -.90 nitro engines and 26cc -50cc two stroke motors that needed water cooling to give heir best performance without over-heating, so to me it looks "right" but I have no fixed opinion about what actually works the best with electric motors - because I don't know enough about it and I have never taken the time to put it to the test.


I have several motors that are suitable for powering a 1/12 scale Swordsman at a brisk pace and I also have fan cooled car ESC that I can run dry too.  If I can get the various motors to run without water-cooling then I would also gain a reverse function that none of my water-cooled ESC can offer.


The test is only for my own piece of mind.  If the motors run at their best efficiency using either dry or water-cooled running I will be happy.
Logged

zooma

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Never too old to learn !
  • Location: Rossendale and Formby Lancashire
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #134 on: October 27, 2020, 08:51:22 pm »

Regarding the long lengths of triangular section.....


Was it on Mayhem where someone created a jig to hold a dremel type tool to mill square section into triangular?
It was along the lines of a mini-planing machine.....


It would be good to see some pictures of a set-up like that as it could be very interesting.


I have also thought about setting my bandsaw up to slice triangular section off of a suitable thickness plank.


My guess is that it will be quite fiddly to cut your own triangular section wood to such a small scale, whereas the machinery used to slice the small section square and oblong sections they already make would make mincemeat of the job!
Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 10,949
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #135 on: October 27, 2020, 08:56:45 pm »

There is the option to stick the mouldings on in square section and then sand the corners off afterwards. A bit of a crude solution but it does work and can be quite neat.

Colin
Logged

ChrisF

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 787
  • What's my favourite cake!
  • Location: Warwick
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #136 on: October 27, 2020, 09:21:06 pm »


It would be good to see some pictures of a set-up like that as it could be very interesting.


I have also thought about setting my bandsaw up to slice triangular section off of a suitable thickness plank.


My guess is that it will be quite fiddly to cut your own triangular section wood to such a small scale, whereas the machinery used to slice the small section square and oblong sections they already make would make mincemeat of the job!


Bob


See UKMike's Fairey Huntsman Aft Cabin Becomes a Sports Fisherman in this section.


Chris
Logged
Concentrating in the main, on the fine Fairey Marine boats, which is plenty for me to be getting on with!

ChrisF

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 787
  • What's my favourite cake!
  • Location: Warwick
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #137 on: October 27, 2020, 09:50:56 pm »

Here's the 4mm 60 deg triangular styrene that I'm going to use subject to a gluing test onto Eze-Kote. I've also got some 3mm for my smaller hulls. Benefits are it's accuracy and flexibility.

Chris
Logged
Concentrating in the main, on the fine Fairey Marine boats, which is plenty for me to be getting on with!

zooma

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Never too old to learn !
  • Location: Rossendale and Formby Lancashire
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #138 on: October 28, 2020, 10:03:49 am »


Bob


See UKMike's Fairey Huntsman Aft Cabin Becomes a Sports Fisherman in this section.


Chris


Thanks Chris,


I have checked UKMikes thread now and various methods of producing triangular section strakes has been quite well covered.


It is interesting that Mike used his bandsaw to produce his triangular section wood - but he made his by cutting down the 5mm square section that came in his kit.


I have a super little Axminster bandsaw that I am going to sell (I had a larger one for my 70th birthday last year and I need the space), but just before I received my new saw I had bought some new 24tpi blades for the Axminster (and these are still in their packets) so I will get it back on the bench and fit a new 24tpi blade and have a go at producing some strakes from 5mm square.


This will be good to try as I really like using my smaller bandsaw and this will be a great excuse to give it anther run before selling it.


Bob.
Logged

ChrisF

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 787
  • What's my favourite cake!
  • Location: Warwick
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #139 on: October 28, 2020, 12:36:09 pm »

Hi Bob

Don't forget that Mikes is 1:8 though so 5mm might look a bit big? Also the problem for me is that those on the Swordsman reduce in size and shape as they approach the bow and so the size at the stern on a model will look too big near the bow. Hence why I've gone for what I have as the smaller section will look better where it is more visible. Photo attached showing front, it's difficult to find a decent shot of the stern showing the strakes (usually one each side due to staggered pattern with shorter ones) but they are basically a right-angle triangle. Just my take on it!

Chris

Logged
Concentrating in the main, on the fine Fairey Marine boats, which is plenty for me to be getting on with!

zooma

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Never too old to learn !
  • Location: Rossendale and Formby Lancashire
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #140 on: October 28, 2020, 03:12:16 pm »

Thanks Chris,


I lifted my little 10" Axminster Hobby bandsaw back up onto a bench this afternoon and fitted a new 3/8" 24tpi blade.


The table will crank over to 50 degrees so I set it at 45 to start my experiment with and fitted the guide on the opposite side to normal so the 5mm square wood that I was going to cut was able to rest on the underside.


I pushed a short 12" length through the saw using my fingers to keep the wood against the guide and the blade, and the result was perfect - I was surprised at just how good it was, however, I would not be so keen to keep my fingers so close to the blade as I try to control a full 36" length.


I did test this and spoilt one length of wood as I didn't have enough control to stop the wood wiggling about before it entered the machine as my fingers needed to be close to the blade to keep the wood in place  against the blade and the guide.


Now I know that the machine is capable of making such a perfect job of making triangular strip hardwood I will see what I can come up with to control the longer 36"  lengths of wood.


Regarding the size of triangular strip.  I moved the guide slightly and it was just as easy to cut smaller triangular strip from the 5mm doner strip, but I wouldn't want to start with smaller square section wood as the size of the square section wood is supportive enough to hold it square against the guide.


Regarding taper cutting. Once I can find a way of feeding the doner section wood into the bandsaw successfully under control, it should be possible to adopt a feed guide to give a taper cut that could be adjusted to start at the widest width that you need and to make a progressive taper down to the narrowest size that you need at the bows within a given length.


It would take quite a few attempts to get the right set-up, so quite a bit of wood could be wasted, but it would not be impossible if it was really thought necessary to produce a tapered section.


I never really used this little bandsaw much as I always used a bigger one (the one that my new saw has replaced) as I never had enough bench space for them both -  so I just used the bigger one for everything.


I am really surprised at just how smooth and quiet this little saw runs.  Short of building a small extension to my workshop (shed) I don't think I can find a home for it - but I will be really sad to see it go as the fine blade also makes cutting curves easy too!
Logged

zooma

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Never too old to learn !
  • Location: Rossendale and Formby Lancashire
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #141 on: October 28, 2020, 10:26:42 pm »

My third attempt at developing a working jig to clamp onto the bandsaw to produce accurate triangular stripping worked!  My first two efforts only had limited success that did work,  but not with 100% repeatability.


I had wasted 3 lengths of 5mm square obechi before I realised that it was just as important to hold the wood after the blade as it was to hold it as it was being presented to the blade for cutting.


Without holding the wood in place immediately after the blade had cut it,  the cut would run out of control and good well shaped cuts were impossible to repeat.


Once I realise what was happening and made a jig to hold the wood both before and after the blade it worked a treat and I was able to cut 10 strips of 5mm square obechi with a 45 degree cut to give two equal halves with no failures.


With an accurate working jig I was able to make a 45 agree cut that divided the square strip exactly in half, so there was no waste wood as both halves could be used for strakes.


I am pleased that I have found a way of making accurate triangular stripping, and think the method could be adapted to make any size - but I would not want to do it too often as it takes time that could be used working on my Swordsman !


If I could buy triangular  stripping "ready made" I wouldn't bother making it.
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,590
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #142 on: October 29, 2020, 12:06:28 pm »

Practice makes perfect!
Logged

zooma

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Never too old to learn !
  • Location: Rossendale and Formby Lancashire
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #143 on: October 29, 2020, 12:41:46 pm »

Thanks Tony,


The first picture shows a very simple feed guide that allowed me to push the wood through towards the blade, but I still needed to use my fingers between this basic guide and the blade to hold the wood against the blade to stop it wandering - and the method of clamping it was not too clever either so I made a revised version that I could clamp more easily against the saw guide. (picture 2).


Both clamps still needed the fingers on my left hand to be between the cutting edge of the blade and the inside edge of the basic guide (in what is quite a small space) to guide the wood into the blade, and as I discovered subsequently, I also needed to use the fingers on my right hand to stop the wood straying away from the saw guide after it had been cut, as when this happened the blade would "dig-in" and cut away from the saw guide.


I added a second guide to the "jig" (picture 3) to work after the blade so I had a feed before the blade and after the blade.


This was much better and no longer needed me to place my fingers close to the blade, but making the jigs too "accurately" did not work either as the accuracy of the 5mm square wood that I was cutting (whilst perfectly good enough for its intended purpose) varied in its size, not only between different lengths but also along its own length.


By "easing" the size of the guide cut-outs slightly and using my left hand fingers before the guide and my right hand fingers after the guide to "feel" what was going on it magically proved to work and accommodate any of the variances that passed through the "jig".


My "Heath Robinson" lash-up "jig" was roughly knocked-up by trial and error and made from scrap and super-glue (!) but it works a treat and it would be easy to make a another that was better made and looked better - but this "jig" works, and if I ever need to make any more triangular strip I make a new jig that was put together "properly"!
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,590
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #144 on: October 30, 2020, 01:26:04 pm »

Fettled feed guide.
Logged

zooma

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Never too old to learn !
  • Location: Rossendale and Formby Lancashire
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #145 on: October 30, 2020, 01:35:05 pm »

This jig only needs to placed centrally onto the saw table (to straddle the machine head) after the guide has been placed on the reverse side (to normal use), and  after the table has been tilted to 45 degrees.

It would be easy to make a jig like this to accommodate almost any sizes of timber that we are likely to use on our model boats , and to tilt the table to a different angle as required.

I found it easiest to use with a small clamp to hold the jig against the table guide leaving my fingers free to "feel" for the small imperfections in size of the wood being fed into it.  Maintaining this slight "feel" pressure on the wood both before it enters the entry guide (left hand fingers) and after it leaves the exit guide (right hand fingers) to be the secret to success and to avoid spoiling any wood.


Once I got the "feel" for it and the table and jig were correctly set-up, I was able to strip 10 consecutive 36" lengths into equal sized triangular strips making it possible to use both sides of the square section wood, so the only waste was the wood lost by the blade thickness during the cutting.


If the table and guide are not set up perfectly to 45 degrees then it will not be possible to bisect the square strip centrally, and if this is the case then it will not be possible to use both sides of the cut wood.  This will also be the case if any angle other than 45 degrees cut angle is chosen when using square section wood to make triangular strakes.
Logged

zooma

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Never too old to learn !
  • Location: Rossendale and Formby Lancashire
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #146 on: November 02, 2020, 03:05:03 pm »

After I had finished working out how to make some jigs to enable me to cut triangular stripping on my small band saw, I can now get back to working on my two Swordsman builds.


A new 11" long M5 prop shaft for the Aerokits Swordsman arrived from Steve at modelboatbits this morning (together with a 5mm - 5mm alignment shaft and a similar sized Powerflex coupling) so I hope to make some more progress on both Swordsman models this week.


I have cut the side skins for the one that I am making from the eBay purchased plans and in-between making the jigs I also epoxied the motor plate into place so I can now get these side skins fitted.


A copy of the motor mounting plate (and the braces to fix them in place) were cut at the same time as the first ones, so they are ready to put into the "kit made" Swordsman once the prop shaft has been fitted and the alignment can be checked so any small differences between the two hulls can be allowed for.


My target is to have both hulls fully skinned by the end of this week, and if time permits, it would be nice to have the motor mounting plate bonded into the "kit made" Swordsman as well.


Having spent so long making triangular stripping I will use some of it on my plan built hull, but as the original 1960's Aerokits kit included some "rare" (these days) small section triangular strip I will definitely fit them "as per plan" (5 lengths per side !) to the kit built hull. I will be only fitting 3 lengths of my own stripping to the plan built hull.


Looking ahead, it will be interesting so see if either of these differences in the number and size of strakes fitted on these two hulls makes any difference at all to the actual "in-water" performance!



Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,590
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #147 on: November 03, 2020, 07:41:36 pm »

Motor plates/mounts and side skin step in practice.
Logged

zooma

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 556
  • Never too old to learn !
  • Location: Rossendale and Formby Lancashire
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #148 on: November 07, 2020, 05:08:04 pm »

I have now trimmed back the side skins and made some deck templates from old cereal packets, cut the deck skins from 1.5mm ply and fitted them.


As I trim back the deck skins I am tempted to fit the chine strips and deck edge strips along with the strakes, but if I decide to cover the hull with cloth I need to wait and fit them afterwards as the cloth will not conform around these shapes.


I am a little 'torn" about this as although I would like to try cloth covering the hull (this would be my first time ever) I think about all the boats that I made and raced in the 1960s, and none of them were cloth covered (I am not sure if we had anything like this back then) and none ever failed due to not being covered with cloth - but they probably needed as much time priming and undercoating the wood to make them ready for painting as it would take to cloth cover them.


If I fit these strips and strakes to the bare wood I can glue them on now and use PVA/Aliphatic to fit them and finish the hull conventionally.


By way of contrast I have no doubts about covering the inside of the hull - something I always did with my "new build" power boats ever since I started making them in the 1960's, but back then this was done with glass fibre resin and either chopped matting or glass cloth.  This was done partly to strengthen the hulls and to fuel proof the wood as we all used either nitro or petrol powered engines back then!


Now I will try to cover the inside of the hull with cloth to strengthen it (especially around the motor mounts) and to give it a nice finish before painting it, but the outside may not get done...........


Logged

ChrisF

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 787
  • What's my favourite cake!
  • Location: Warwick
Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #149 on: November 07, 2020, 06:36:29 pm »

Hi Bob

You don't really need to use cloth on ply as it is strong enough. I tend to use it to tie the ply and balsa blocks together and provide a uniform surface, but as you have not used balsa, you don't need to do this.

Not exactly a mistake, but I fitted the decks after clothing the hull and with Eze-Kote it's very easy to sand  through and damage the cloth when sanding the edges of the deck.

Chris
Logged
Concentrating in the main, on the fine Fairey Marine boats, which is plenty for me to be getting on with!
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 12   Go Up