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Author Topic: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman  (Read 45907 times)

DaveM

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #200 on: December 09, 2020, 02:06:51 pm »

From original Fairey Marine GA drawing of the full-size. You guys can do the maths for whichever scale you have used, but this is Alan Burnard's own drawing.
Dave M
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #201 on: December 09, 2020, 02:34:32 pm »

Thanks Dave,

That is a very helpful drawing.

It is a shame that just dividing full size measurements down to the scale required does not always produce a convincing looking model - and I will try to explain what I mean.

Many years ago I was working with a German manufacturer who made the best large scale petrol powered off-road model racing cars who wanted to develop a circuit racing car to develop a new model sport.

Based in Stuttgart and having very strong ties with Mercedes the first model chosen to replicate was a Mercedes Evo that was currently racing in the DTM series.

All the supplied measurements were perfect and access to the full size racing car was also available and used - but the perfectly reproduced 1/5 scale replica just looked too thin!

After lots of head scratching a well known die cast model car manufacturer was consulted and they explained that they were well aware of this problem and had used a formula to correct this "fault" for many years and that the model industry in general used this same formulae.

When applied to our prototype Evo car it showed that it should be widened by a certain factor - (lets say "20mm" for arguments sake).

The complete new mould was sliced in half length ways (!) and a "20mm" plate was laminated in-between the two halves and then blended-in.

Once completed the model was vastly improved and looked absolutely perfect and was officially "approved" and put into production.

Subsequent models that followed soon afterwards of all the other DTM cars used this same formulae with complete success and the model sport became world-wide and is still very popular to this day (not too much in the UK these days - sadly).

There was never a problem with the mathematics or the measurements, we just failed to understand how the human brain works and how it "sees" down-scaled models of full size originals that they are familiar with.

This may or may not have anything to do with the "look" of his particular 34" long model of the Huntsman 31, but it is worth being aware that even the best and biggest resources have fallen into the trap of not checking to make sure something "looks right" - no matter what the measurements may suggest!

Bob.
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DaveM

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #202 on: December 09, 2020, 05:36:59 pm »

You're most welcome, Bob, but that's going to spoil the favourite sport of the rivet-counters!

DM
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ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #203 on: December 10, 2020, 10:07:44 am »

I checked my drawing against those dimensions and found that I was spot on at the front window which is the most important one as it impacts on the front window and within a mm or so elsewhere so I can live with that.

Interesting what you say about model cars Bob. I think part of it is about viewpoint. We are used to looking at full-sized cars from a 5 to 6 foot eye level whereas with a model you're looking down on it and get a completely different perspective.

Whenever I look down on my cars from an upstairs window they can look a bit long and narrow.

Funnily enough I've looked at my Huntsman 28 a few times and thought it too long, but the length is right. It will look better once the screen and air intakes are on which will give it more height and break up the length of the coamings.

Chris
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #204 on: December 10, 2020, 11:55:14 am »

You're most welcome, Bob, but that's going to spoil the favourite sport of the rivet-counters!

DM


Hi Dave,

There has never been anything to deter the rivet counters (from counting rivets) but we should always remember that everyone has their own hobbies and rivet counting can become an all absorbing interest in its own right.

As I get older, measurements become less important than enjoying what I make and more importantly enjoying the pleasure of sailing the finished item - but it is nice if it "looks right" too  :-))

Stay safe,

Bob.
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #205 on: December 12, 2020, 04:10:39 pm »

I checked my drawing against those dimensions and found that I was spot on at the front window which is the most important one as it impacts on the front window and within a mm or so elsewhere so I can live with that.

Interesting what you say about model cars Bob. I think part of it is about viewpoint. We are used to looking at full-sized cars from a 5 to 6 foot eye level whereas with a model you're looking down on it and get a completely different perspective.

Whenever I look down on my cars from an upstairs window they can look a bit long and narrow.

Funnily enough I've looked at my Huntsman 28 a few times and thought it too long, but the length is right. It will look better once the screen and air intakes are on which will give it more height and break up the length of the coamings.

Chris

Hi Chris,

I don't think the eye sees different types of scaled down models in different ways, although it may be relevant that many of the boats that we model we don't get to see "first hand" or on a daily basis so we are less familiar with the full sized prototype and so the eye does not recognise or see any difference.

That is also OK as it is only what "looks right" to the builder/owner that matters - but recently as we have been able to see more photographs of Fairey models we have noticed some that just don't look as realistic as they should.

The 1/11 scale 34" Huntsman 31 is a model that is drawing some criticism at the moment, whereas the 1/12 scale Swordsman (a model from the 1960's) still looks good enough not to attract such criticism.

I rather suspect that the skill and the "practiced eye" of the kit designer is the real difference between the two models as one looks "right" and the other most definitely does not!  Les Rowell and P. Connolly both achieved convincing looking Swordsman models.

At this moment I am trying to shape the rear cabin variant onto my current Swordsman project and like all models this will be a compromise where detailed measurements would be unlikely to help - but some good photographs (and drawings) have been a great help.

You summed it up very well some time back when you compared our model making with building "prototypes".  None of them will be built to the ruler when they can look better with a little tweak,  and the disparity of materials and thicknesses will alway demand a compromise.

Capturing the look and the character of a prototype is what we try to achieve  - and sometimes this is not helped when we have never seen the full sized craft ..............and we may all see the same thing a little differently too!

Enjoy your weekend!

Bob.
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ChrisF

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #206 on: December 12, 2020, 06:42:30 pm »

Bob

Trust me, the designer of the Precedent kits is every bit as skilled as the designers of the Swordsman you mention and don't forget that Fairey made their drawings available to them including even going as far as producing hull lines for models, how good is that! So they should all be pretty accurate.

Trouble with the Huntsman is that the superstructure is very narrow, particularly at the front and so any errors in building that cause the front window to be too high or wrongly shaped will have a disproportional affect on how the model looks. The Swordsman on the other hand is much wider with wide front and rear windows and so more tolerant of any inaccuracies.

With the Precedent Huntsman the errors come from the building and or the poor cutting out of the kit parts due, as has been stated before, by the poor quality of ply and worn out tooling, particularly with the later kits, over which the kit designer has no control. Worthwhile pointing out again this has nothing to do with the current SLEC kits which are completely different and use accurately cut parts and quality materials.

If mine doesn't look right I will have no-one to blame but myself as it's scratch built and have modified/produced my own drawings! 

Chris
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #207 on: December 12, 2020, 08:26:06 pm »

Bob

Trust me, the designer of the Precedent kits is every bit as skilled as the designers of the Swordsman you mention and don't forget that Fairey made their drawings available to them including even going as far as producing hull lines for models, how good is that! So they should all be pretty accurate.

Trouble with the Huntsman is that the superstructure is very narrow, particularly at the front and so any errors in building that cause the front window to be too high or wrongly shaped will have a disproportional affect on how the model looks. The Swordsman on the other hand is much wider with wide front and rear windows and so more tolerant of any inaccuracies.

With the Precedent Huntsman the errors come from the building and or the poor cutting out of the kit parts due, as has been stated before, by the poor quality of ply and worn out tooling, particularly with the later kits, over which the kit designer has no control. Worthwhile pointing out again this has nothing to do with the current SLEC kits which are completely different and use accurately cut parts and quality materials.

If mine doesn't look right I will have no-one to blame but myself as it's scratch built and have modified/produced my own drawings! 

Chris


Hi Chris,

At risk of drifting too far off subject on the Swordsman thread I would just like to answer your comments to clarify anything I have said that may have been misunderstood.

The one model that most criticise for looking poor and unconvincing is the 34" version of the Precedent Huntsman 31 and the superstructure in particular.

I have not heard any bad comments about the hull shape.

I hope to improve my own 34" Precedent Huntsman 31 model by making a fresh superstructure starting with re-shaping the front cabin window so it looks a lot more like the pictures of the real thing that you have been kind enough to share with us.

You directed me toward the 1/12 scale Huntsman 31 plans (that I subsequently bought from Nexus) and I can see that the front cabin window on those plans look a lot more convincing so I will refer to this shape and the photographs as a good base to work from.

Some of the smaller size (34" long) Precedent Huntsman 31 models that I have seen have been beautifully assembled by the kit builder, but the front cabin window shape and the overall height of the superstructure look just as tall as the badly put together examples (like my own!) so I doubt the kit builder has much influence on this superstructure shape if it is put together using the kit parts.

The kit parts in my 34" Precedent 31 kit look like they have been die cut (and fit the original plans quite well) so I don't think the kit maker has done a bad job in cutting the shapes out - but in many cases they could have used better quality wood.

Worn out tooling crushes the wood rather than slicing cleanly through it (I worked with cutting dies for many years) but they cannot change the shape that much.  The kit parts actually fit together really well so I would suggest that the tooling for the kit was really good.

I have made no mention of any other kit apart from the Aerokits Swordsman that I believe can be assembled to look very convincing and just as good as models built from the excellent plans drawn by P.Connolly. 

The mention of Les Rowell was because he made a good job of making the Aerokits Swordsman kit look as convincing as it does, and it has stood the test of time with very few (if any) criticisms about how convincing it looks as a finished model - and these kits were made in the 60's and never had the benefit of being die cut.

My unmade Swordsman kit (like all saw cut kits of the time) has parts in it that are not that well cut (and none of them are symmetric) but "never  the less" the finished model looks good - and they used much better quality plywood (in the Swordsman kits that I have seen).

The quality of the tooling and the fit of the parts in the smaller 34" Precedent Huntsman 31 kits is much better than can be found in the Aerokits Swordsman as they have been engineered to fit each other very well.


You mention SLEC.  Now imagine how nice it would be to have them make a 1/12 scale Swordsman kit ? 

There are no 1/12 scale Swordsman kits available at moment, but if they were to fill the gap in the market by making one , I bet it would fit together as well as the Precedent Huntsman kits - and they are unlikely to change the already well accepted size and shape of the Aerokits or P.Connolly plans so it could be a winner  :-)) 


Bob.
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #208 on: December 14, 2020, 10:46:38 am »

I am beginning to regret trying to convert the Swordsman I am building from the Aerokits plans to a "rear cabin" variant.

This rear cabin variant has the cabin roof that follows the lines of the extended cabin sides (combings), but the combing shapes on the Aerokits plans look like they are a little too low towards the back.

It turns-out that Fairey may have changed the profile of the rear cabin variants slightly to make a better roof line - but sadly I was unaware of this when started this modification.

If I can get a good side profile drawing of this revised combing shape I can cut off the combings and graft the revised profile shapes onto my model .
..........just as I thought things were progressing nicely......................

Bob.
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madwelshman

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #209 on: December 14, 2020, 11:08:02 am »

Bob, have sent you an email.


Will
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49" Precedent Perkasa
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42" Veron Fairey Huntsman 28 x2
34" Lesro Sportsman mk1
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #210 on: December 14, 2020, 10:17:45 pm »

Some time back when I was unable to find another Turnigy 3648-1450 out-runner, Harry suggested that I should try an in-runner for a change and reckoned that the Surpass 3674-2250KV would be a good substitute - and maybe even more powerful.


I have never had an in-runner in a power-boat before and noticed that most to those that seemed to be in the sort of power range that I was looking for were primarily aimed at model cars (and claimed to be water-proof) so I was happy to give Harrys recommendation a try and sent away for one.


Whilst peering through the Bangood site I noticed some water-cooling jackets to fit the 3674 series motors that were anodised in a nice orange/red colour and for less than a fiver each I just had try one.


The motors arrived weeks ago - but the water-cooling jacket to fit it only arrived today! The water jacket was not too keen to "slide" onto the motor body so I wiped some Vaseline (petroleum jelly) around the "O" rings and found the jacket was then possible to fit it and rotate the water nipple to a position that would best suite the installation in my hulls.


The motor will fit on my standard alloy water-cooled motor mounts so it is another motor that I can swap and change - water-cool - or run dry without any water cooling.


With the water-cooling fully connected up I can run the water through the ESC, on to the front motor bearing, and finally around the moor casing before being pumped out through the hull side.


With the motor fitted onto the alloy water-cooled motor mount I soldered my favourite 6mm gold plugs onto the leads so the motor is now ready to go!


I may give it a run in my Rapier so I have a direct comparison with the performance I have seen from the Turnigy 3648-1450 in the same hull.  I hope it will be at least as powerful - or better  :-))

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DaveM

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #211 on: December 14, 2020, 11:12:32 pm »

(Posted on the wrong thread - sorry!)DM
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #212 on: December 15, 2020, 03:35:48 pm »

The Inrunners...
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #213 on: December 15, 2020, 04:23:09 pm »

I don't know how to compare the power of an in-runner brushless motor with that of an out-runner brushless motor.


My Turnigy 3648-1450 performs far better than I would have thought possible in my restored Rapier, and gave me a very unexpected and pleasant surprise.


The motor was an "unknown" to me when I fitted it and I just hoped it would have enough power to push my overweight "restoration" model along at a decent sort of speed - but it has "power to spare" so I am trying to work out what size of in-runner would give a similar amount of power.


When I started my Swordsman build I intended fitting another Turnigy 3648-1450 out-runner motor in it, but sadly this motor is no longer available, and Harry suggested that I should try a Surpass 3674-2250KV in-runner.


On the face of it the "numbers" suggest that it should be an even more powerful motor than my Turnigy 3648-1450, but I have heard that in-runners may not have quite so much "sparkle" as an equivalent spec out-runner?


Recently (and before the water jacket arrived), I saw the same motor with a lower KV on offer (Surpass 3674-1850KV) for just over £20, so I thought I would buy it (and another water jacket) just incase the 2250KV turned out to have more power than I needed - and I still have my 34" Wavemaster to power sometime in the near future so I know that the 1850KA motor will get used if it fails to have enough "oomph" for my Swordsman.


Anyone who has any experience of running both in-runners and out-runners of similar KV ratings who would like to share their experience would be more than welcome to post their findings on this thread as I know I am not the only one who has heard good and bad,  both in favour and against each type!


My guess is that an out-runner should have the edge, and that my Surpass 3674-1580KV in-runner will not be as powerful as my (slightly lower numbers) Turnigy 3648-1450 out-runner?.........but the Surpass 3674-2250KV could have more power?


Bob.







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JimG

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #214 on: December 15, 2020, 07:20:02 pm »

When comparing the power output of the motors  what you should be comparing is the wattage not the kV rating. An inrunner with the same watt rating as an outrunner will be both putting out the same power. What will differ is the rpm at which they put out the power. Outrunners tend to run at lower revs than the equivalent inrunner and will give a higher torque as well. So outrunners generally run larger props than inrunners or the inrunner will need a gearbox to drive the same prop. One of the best bit of equipment to have to compare brushless motors is a wattmeter, this connects between the battery and esc and will allow you to measure the current while the motor is under load and also the wattage. It is also very useful to check that you are not overloading the motor with too large a prop as this can burn out the esc or the motor.
Jim
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zooma

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #215 on: December 15, 2020, 07:38:32 pm »

When comparing the power output of the motors  what you should be comparing is the wattage not the kV rating. An inrunner with the same watt rating as an outrunner will be both putting out the same power. What will differ is the rpm at which they put out the power. Outrunners tend to run at lower revs than the equivalent inrunner and will give a higher torque as well. So outrunners generally run larger props than inrunners or the inrunner will need a gearbox to drive the same prop. One of the best bit of equipment to have to compare brushless motors is a wattmeter, this connects between the battery and esc and will allow you to measure the current while the motor is under load and also the wattage. It is also very useful to check that you are not overloading the motor with too large a prop as this can burn out the esc or the motor.
Jim


Thanks Jim,

So I now know that in-runners will rev harder but deliver less torque - hence the need for a smaller prop if both motors watt ratings are similar.

I will try to find the wattage of the Turnigy 3648-1450 out-runner and the Surpass 3674-2250KV in-runner motors (and the Surpass 3674-1850KV motor too!).

A wattmeter would be handy - if I place one on the wires between the LiPo and the ESC, does it matter if it is the positive or negative wire that I interrupt to put the wattmeter on?

Also, is it possible to record this measurement when the boat is underway and working under load - or is the static (unloaded) comparison good enough to understand the power difference between the motors being compared?

Bob.
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #216 on: December 16, 2020, 12:39:12 pm »


Thanks Jim,

A wattmeter would be handy - if I place one on the wires between the LiPo and the ESC, does it matter if it is the positive or negative wire that I interrupt to put the wattmeter on?

Also, is it possible to record this measurement when the boat is underway and working under load - or is the static (unloaded) comparison good enough to understand the power difference between the motors being compared?

Bob.
The wattmeter is connected to both wires from the battery and outputs to both wires to the esc. This allows it to measure both voltage and current so can then calculate the watts. I think some of the more modern wattmeters have a recording function so will store the highest values during the run allowing you to give a better comparison. Unloaded values will show some differences but won't show the maximum values when running under load. You need to run under load to check the maximum current so that you don't overload the motor with too large a prop. At the least you can check the wattage by holding the boat at the side of the pond while giving the model full throttle.(Put the bow against the pondside for extra security) As the prop is basically stalled under this condition the value measured is likely to be higher than when free running but will give a useful idea of the current and wattage.
Jim
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #217 on: December 16, 2020, 12:45:17 pm »

The wattmeter is connected to both wires from the battery and outputs to both wires to the esc. This allows it to measure both voltage and current so can then calculate the watts. I think some of the more modern wattmeters have a recording function so will store the highest values during the run allowing you to give a better comparison. Unloaded values will show some differences but won't show the maximum values when running under load. You need to run under load to check the maximum current so that you don't overload the motor with too large a prop. At the least you can check the wattage by holding the boat at the side of the pond while giving the model full throttle.(Put the bow against the pondside for extra security) As the prop is basically stalled under this condition the value measured is likely to be higher than when free running but will give a useful idea of the current and wattage.
Jim


Thanks Jim,


I will take a look to see who sells suitable wattmeters at a decent price.


Bob.
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #219 on: December 16, 2020, 12:55:48 pm »

Personally Bob, I'd go for the bigger one.
It will read lower current, but the smaller ones won't read higher.


Last thing you need is to have to buy another in the future because the 1st one you bought was too small.


That's the theory I went with for my planes.


Will
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49" Precedent Perkasa
46" Aerokits Sea Queen
42" Veron Fairey Huntsman 28 x2
34" Lesro Sportsman mk1
34" Precedent Fairey Huntsman 31 x3
34" Aerokits Sea Commander x2
29" Aerokits Sea Rover
20" Aerokits Fast Patrol Boat
16" Aerokits Sea Urchin

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #220 on: December 16, 2020, 05:10:49 pm »

Knowing your driving style Bob, I'd certainly go for the higher of the 2 %)
Please also get out of the habit of mixing watts and amps. Watts = Amps x Volts.
The meter is rated at 200amps, so on 3S you could be up to 2200watts!
You have been warned <*<
Keep Safe
Tony
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #221 on: December 16, 2020, 05:38:01 pm »

Knowing your driving style Bob, I'd certainly go for the higher of the 2 %)
Please also get out of the habit of mixing watts and amps. Watts = Amps x Volts.
The meter is rated at 200amps, so on 3S you could be up to 2200watts!
You have been warned <*<
Keep Safe
Tony


Watt a cheek  >>:-(

Are you suggesting that I drive my boats too quickly....?

That's watt power boats are designed to do.........go F-A-S-T   O0

I'll bet your Ultima Dea won't be hanging about - watts the point of building a power boat and loitering about with it ?

........maybe the 200 whatvoltamp thingy is the size to go for?  :-))
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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #222 on: December 17, 2020, 03:57:15 pm »

Slow progress is being made on the Swordsman rear cabin roof assembly.

Developing the double curvature of the rear cabin top so that it "looks right" has been quite an absorbing (time consuming) activity that has needed constant reference to any views that I can find of the rear cabin variant of the Swordsman - and every different picture tends to show a slightly different series of curves when viewed from different angles.

The one thing I can see is that the cabin top cannot be nice and flat (easy to make) if it is to follow the shape of the extended cab side combings so the cabin top covering will be a double curvature and it will need a strong frame to fix it onto to avoid warping.

The Swordsman that I am building is from a copy of the original Aerokits kit plans and I am trying to blend the roof line to follow the curvature of the extended cabin side combings, so I am looking for a compromise that still "looks" right.

I really like the Aerokits construction method that has the cab sides integrated into the bulkheads as it makes for a really water resistant  finished model, but this type of construction only has removable cabin rooftops for any required access. 

This same situation will also apply to the rear cabin variant rooftop,  and having to make it removable is a lot more tricky that it would be if it were "solid" ie - if it were being built into a model that had a complete lift-off superstructure. 

I am building the rear roof top on a base that can be dropped into the space between the rear extended cabin side combings and due to the double curvature I am making it quite strong to resist any "twisting" that is more likely when the roof covering is under tension (at least when the skins are being stressed over the frames.)

To help with this I have made the base sit a little deeper into the hull at the transom end to gain some strength where the roof becomes more shallow and the formers would normally be a lot thinner and probably more likely to twist.

This deep drop-in "tray" may look a bit strange (and far too deep) when viewed "out of situ" but when it is dropped into place the rear of the roof  will (hopefully) drop into place and look OK.

No doubt a few more happy evenings "tinkering about" with this rear cabin structure is something that I have to look forward to until I "get it right"
and the framework is ready for it's final "sanding to shape" before I can cut the 1.5mm plywood skins and convince them that they really do want to be contorted into the shape that I have in mind for them!

Hopefully I will be worth it and I don't have to resort to the "fall-back" plan of abandoning the idea and making the Swordsman with the low rear cabin as per the original kit!
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DaveM

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #223 on: December 17, 2020, 05:48:49 pm »

Why not just plank the thing with 8-10mm x 3mm hard balsa, obechi or bass strips? It's a lot easier than it looks and you'll get that compound curve dead right.

DM
 
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DJW

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Re: 1/12 scale Fairey Marine Swordsman
« Reply #224 on: December 17, 2020, 05:55:59 pm »

Have to agree with DaveM that planking will create a great compound curve, this is limewood planking on the deck of my Aquarama after sanding:





Hope that helps.
David.
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