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Author Topic: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .  (Read 2966 times)

KBIO

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Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« on: August 30, 2020, 08:19:45 am »

Hello Gentlemen!
I am coming begging your expertise again. I have a nice Marten - Hows - Bayliss which is working fine but with a reverse which is not reliable at all.You can see the principle on the picture. The (kind of) cam shaft deplacing the tiny distribution sleeves for reverse is rotated by friction on an O’ring (which is out on the pic) , as I do not know which size to set. All that I've tried do not stick properly.Moving the lever forward and backward for rotating the distribution shaft rotates the O’ring but not the shaft. The oily environment is the problem…. but not only. Too much pressure on it ar not enough.I know that M.H.B were not too happy with this reverse as they changed for a Maudslay one. I intend to do so but prior to go for a mess, I’d like to find out if anyone has such a problem and above all, how it has been sorted out.It’s a pitty to leave this engine on the shelf as it runs very well …. in one direction ….. or the other , but no way to change it with RC.Thanks for help .
Hope that the weather is fine on your side and the beer is cool enough.
Regards.

rhavrane

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2020, 10:12:01 am »

Bonjour Yves,
I would kindly suggest you to contact Martin Baylis here : info @ model-steam-engines.co.uk (remove blanks)
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mikew

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2020, 03:01:38 pm »

Hi
Some years ago I sent one back to MHB and they replaced it with a gear set-up, very much like the Cheddar Gemini
Cheers
Mike
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JimG

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2020, 07:21:01 pm »

Can you coat the pulley the o-ring runs on with something to increase the friction? Paint with fine sand added to act as anti slip? I have seen a large model aircraft powered by a large petrol engine using a belt drive gearbox to reduce the rpm at the prop. This was slipping so its pilot used spray carpet adhesive on the pulleys to increase the grip successfuly flying the model.
Jim
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KBIO

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2020, 04:51:29 pm »

Hello!
Thank you for the ideas.
I may contact Martin Bayliss to install Maudslay reverse gears, but I am afraid that the postage plus the work will cost me more than the price I paid for the engine. %)
In any case thanks for your answers, I let you know what I'll decide.
Regards.

KBIO

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2020, 06:40:01 pm »

Good evening.
Part of the mail received from M.Bayliss:
-"it is not possible to fit the Maudsley reversing system to an engine of this age however I can  tell you where to source a replacement O ring"[/size].[/i]
[/size][/i]
[/size]Too bad but , I may consider to 'print' an [/size]O'ring glued with some grooves in & out to help the rotation! In any case I'll go for a cheap and reliable solution.


[/size]Attached a quick view of work going on of the launch in which the engine should go.
[/size]Best regards.

KNO3

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2020, 08:09:44 pm »

Hello, I think it is possible to fit the Maudslay system to your PB2 old style engine. The gears can be bought ready made, but the gear supports, which enable them to move in forward and reverse positions, need to be specially made.


Until then, you could try with some replacement o-rings, made from different materials. Until you find one that has enough grip.


I have just looked at my PB2 engine, which has the same reversing system as yours, and tested it manually. It worked fine. I think the o-ring must be chosen very carefully and should also not be too thick, or it will slip. Oil contamination can also increase the slippage.
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KBIO

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2020, 07:37:26 am »

Hello KNO3 !
I would appreciate that you send me detailed pictures of the mechanism .
Also, if you know what gears to buy and where ? I guess that they have to be of the same size.


Finally, for my catalogue , what means  PB2 ?


Thanks for your help.
Have a good day.

KNO3

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2020, 05:41:37 pm »

Hi Yves,
You will need to buy 4 identical gears, of a smaller size than the ones currently installed (so that the 2 gears which get installed to the shafts do not touch each other). If you look on ebay, I am sure you will find many.
I will email you some pictures I have of the original Maudslay mechanism.

I think PB stands for Peter Baylis, the maker of the engines and 2 for the number of cylinders. There were also PB1, PB3 and PB4 engines.
Besides, there was also an even earlier version of the PB2 than yours, which had the steam chest arranged longitudinally, at the opposite ends of the engine. It had a similar slip eccentric with o-ring reversing mechanism, but arranged differently.
And, as you know, there was the later version of the PB2 with Maudslay gear.
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KBIO

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2020, 06:53:24 pm »

Hello Calin!
Thanks a lot for all those informations that you sent me.
Very useful.
I just have to work on it now.
No doubt that I shall ask some more silly questions.
Best regards.

ooyah/2

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2020, 09:16:35 pm »

Yves,
I discovered these pics of a Cheddar engine that I did some repairs for an old friend some time ago,I can't recall the sequence of the arc of travel nor if any of the gears were fixed but I hope that this will give you some idea of the principle to reverse the engine.
is this engine the same as yours or an updated version.


George.
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KBIO

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2020, 07:33:24 am »

Good morning.
Clear & Useful !
Thanks George.
Below , the Maudslay , I have on an old engine.
I must find the number of teeth I need and order the proper stuff.
Thanks a lot for your help.
Have a good day ! :-)

KBIO

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2020, 03:35:51 pm »

Hello !
Ordered some gears and looking for some more but to kill the time , I decided to find out how the reverse behaves if I increase the profil of the teeth with my mini-grinder;
I just can say that it works fine , despite the oil that I flooded the O'ring with.
Still, the O'ring is not the right size but glued with cyano , it sticks in place.
Just to follow up!
When I get my gears I'll workout  a proper Maudlays reverse but never know :  I keep my O'ring for back up, just in case .... :embarrassed: https://youtu.be/Z51RJXsMTzo       https://youtu.be/Z51RJXsMTzo


Regards.

KNO3

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2020, 06:29:36 pm »

Hi Yves. Your engine runs very well. However, the instructions from Marten, Howes & Baylis say not to reverse the engine while running, but always to stop the steam first, until the lever gets in the position where it vents the steam chest pressure through the small pipe directly to the exhaust. This relieves the valves from steam pressure and makes them easier to move by the reversing lever.

After watching your video, reversing obviously works without stopping the engine, but could it cause premature wear? What do you think?
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KBIO

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2020, 08:13:23 pm »

Hello.
You are absolutely right KN03 . What I am showing is a NO-NO !
Always stop the steam inlet before changing the rotation. Some marine mechanics of this forum will probably confirm what I say.
One old marine mechanic explained to me that the only time that a straight reverse is allowed on a steam ship is when they do the final test.
From full ahead to full reverse the ship has to stop on a distance equal to the length of the boat. Apparently some engineer were sh.. there pants on the bridge watch at this time.
According to what I've read, it is exceptionally "allowed" on trains as it can slides on the rails, but for a boat the opposite forces are totally different.


I was testing the O'ring behavior in the worst conditions : I was pouring oil on it and I even diverted the steam on it for a while. The temp at its level , running @ 1500 rpm is 50/60 °C.
But for sure that I do how you say.  Even with a Stephenson.
Best regards.


Buy the way , thanks a lot for all the informations, you supply me ; that will help me in my project. No sure to succeed though , but I have to try.









KNO3

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2020, 09:57:49 pm »


Please explain if you did anything to the o-ring and what size it is.
I am very interested to see how you build the Maudslay gear, so please continue to report here.
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KBIO

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2020, 07:55:31 am »

hello!
I will ! This way, I can benefit from recommandations and avoid some mistakes. ok2 


The O'ring I used is : mm 10 x 6 X 2 but a thicker one is required to get a better grip.

Have a good day!!

derekwarner

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2020, 08:17:54 am »

Evening KBIO.........just for interest...... %)


O-ring Standard Number 6-001 = 6.0 ID x 2.0 section........
O-ring Standard Number 2-108 = 6.02 ID x 2.62 section......


Both are commonly available sizes
Nitrile or Buna-N [same=same] is the best option


It is great that you have achieved the engine drive and reversal without major surgery.... O0 


Derek
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KBIO

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2020, 05:04:52 pm »

Hello!
Thank you Derek.
Below, what I received from Martin Bayliss :


I think it is an imperial O Ring with a ¼” internal diameter and a 3/32” section, this was twenty odd years ago so quite likely, you can buy a suitable o ring from Polymax with an id of 6.3mm and section of 2.39mm, the material you need is Viton, it is quite hard and resistant to oil, heat etc. The main issue I think you are going to have is installation as removing the o ring and installing a new one may involve some dismantling which would lose the timing of the engine so be warned,  you would have to find a method of getting the components back in exactly the same place. The link to the relevant page on the Polymax website is https://www.polymax.co.uk/o-rings/o-ring-selector/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwwOz6BRCgARIsAKEG4FX5XVN-PJsJHmgmxfHIgr8PP7vXeO_WPObTuC5hgxtPvvotzjkRjokaAv_HEALw_wcB Good luck!
 


Just for information , it is possible to slide back the new O'ring in the groove without dismantling anything.
The timing of the gears , in the case you dismantle the front engine is the same as for a Stephenson.
Regards.



KNO3

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2020, 05:13:22 pm »

I can confirm, changing the o-ring is very easy and doesn't involve any removing of other parts. The timing is not affected.
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southsteyne2

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2020, 12:40:17 am »

Hi all is this a type of slip eccentric? I would like to understand how it works perhaps a schematic or closeup image would be great.
CheersJohn
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derekwarner

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2020, 01:30:55 pm »


KBIO...my memory tells me you asked this same question [15 December 2012] or 7 years ago?  :-X

https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,62535.msg659960.html#msg659960


What happened to the French Typhoon TM1, the TM2 V twin and the TM3 inline engine range? ...[all with unique reversing function] %)


Derek
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KBIO

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2020, 02:44:04 pm »

Hello !
Sorry Derek but I was not involved in this post.
My Typhoon mono cylinder reverse system works very well on the table  but is  a bit capricious when away from the shore!!
I am trying to work out a clear explanation for the PB2 reverse....
So long ...!

derekwarner

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2020, 04:25:19 pm »

So Inspector Clouseau  :police:  asks .......is 22KBIO [French speaking model steam person] someone different to KBIO [French speaking model steam person]  %)  who talks many times about the Typhoon Engines?..............Derek


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LG8fiJMXzhg
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Derek Warner

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KBIO

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Re: Reverse problem on a M-H-B .
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2020, 04:55:18 pm »

Hello Derek!

 {-) [size=78%] [/size] {-) [/size][size=78%]I apologize![/size] :embarrassed:



My problem is that I talk too much ! In French and in English , "pero alguna veces en portignol tamben!"
So my old shrivelled brain becomes confused sometime  %% .
To answer to your question, I am not sure that Typhoon still goes on.
Rhavrane knows probably more than I on this matter.
A long time since I talked to Fabrice (Anton).
Regards!
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