Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?  (Read 2434 times)

Geoff

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 759
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2020, 04:51:29 PM »

If you run out of water before gas the boiler will get hot enough to charcoal and wood lagging which may eventually cause a fire. I speak from experience! If you can get to the model quick enough then no problems but otherwise the model can be destroyed which may then cause a problem with a half filled gas tank - not sure though because as the tempo rises the gas pressure rises so the flame gets bigger and exhausts the gas tank. Not something I care to put into practice.


Obvious solution is to use a gas valve to shut off the supply or some way to put the flame out remotely but in the old days when radio was more expensive that meant another channel!


Its all good fun and every time I sail a steam model it reminds me parts get hot!!  :-)
Logged

rhavrane

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 569
  • Steam passionate collector
  • Location: Saint-Mandť, Val-de-Marne, France
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2020, 06:38:39 PM »

Bonjour Geoff,
Thanks to you message, I note that I forgot to mention another accessory for gas safety which doesn't need a channel, the automatic safety gas valve based on the lack of pressure at the end of the water in the boiler, see at 2'30" (combined to a double daphragm gas regulator) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msoE4gl1qtw&ab
 
Logged
RaphaŽl
RaphaŽlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
Membre du Modele Yacht Club de Paris http://mycparis.fr/
Ma chaÓne YouTube:  http://www.youtube.com/user/rhavrane
Mes albums : https://picasaweb.google.com/104408627118165995713/

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 93
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2020, 07:19:17 PM »

Rhaphael have watched the video with great interest please would you let us know where to get these valves from since they certainly look very good
Logged

rhavrane

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 569
  • Steam passionate collector
  • Location: Saint-Mandť, Val-de-Marne, France
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2020, 09:26:58 PM »

Bonjour Dave,
This specific safety valve and the handset are made by Fabrice ANTON Bretagne, french manufacturer whose site is : http://www.anton-vapeur.fr/
He makes the accessories on demand, even if his site is not updated with all his products.


 
Logged
RaphaŽl
RaphaŽlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
Membre du Modele Yacht Club de Paris http://mycparis.fr/
Ma chaÓne YouTube:  http://www.youtube.com/user/rhavrane
Mes albums : https://picasaweb.google.com/104408627118165995713/

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,455
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2020, 10:34:27 PM »

Raphael........the Swiss Company Kramer [ANTON distributor] has always had a far better WEB detail listing for the ANTON product which appears to be near complete with the more common products


Currently Kramer lists 
ANTON Elegance Gas regulator = in production CHF 288 [Swiss Franc] = $433.66 AUD
ANTON Elegance Stop valve = no longer in production [ similar price to the Regulator ....12 months? ago]
ANTON Elco Gas regulator = no longer in production

I have an ANTON V71, which is the same as the Elco Gas regulator.......works well $270.00 AUD many years ago.......not as sophisticated in adjustment as the Elegance or the version from Microcosm   

I do not find any of them on the ANTON WEB site  :o


Derek
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

morfa

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great ó and great advice!
  • Location: Kanata Ontario Canada
    • Morfa
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2020, 11:45:16 PM »

RaphaŽl, et al,

I am not sure I fully understand the differences in the gas regulators other than the price. Are they apples to apples or mixed fruit.
Some people liked the BIX029 from Forest Classics in the UK for 60 pounds with nut assemble or just over $100 CDN for me
Then there was talk of the P5 Automatic Boiler Pressure regulator from Microcosm at $70 I assume US so just under $100 CDN for me.
Now we have a suggestion for the Anton Gas regulator for 288 Swiss francs or $420 CDN for me.

Which version is best for my "little" Clyde MSM steam plant?

Derek
Logged

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,455
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2020, 12:31:08 AM »

Morning Derek.......


This is certainly a little disconcerting from a monetary perspective. >>:-( ........ Raphael himself has told us that the Microcosm P5 twin diaphragm gas controller/regulator for $70 US function correctly


When I purchased my ANTON V71 single diaphragm regulator  for ~~$270 AUD, manufacturers had not yet marketed a twin controller/regulator


So the French were the first to manufacture the twin diaphragm controller/regulator, then some years later the generic P5 twin diaphragm controller/regulator appears on the market for approx 1/4 of the cost of the French original...the functionality of the of twin diaphragm unit is technically far superior in over the single diaphragm unit


In 1972 I purchased as French made Renault 12 motor vehicle.........now this Brand has teamed up with Nissan and cross manufacture in many Countries around the World including China


Some people swear by crisp & crunchy Granny Smith apples...others would never go past the slightly sweeter new season rosy red Delicious  {-)


In 2021, if I needed, or were to purchase a new gas accessory for a model boat, it would be without question the P5 from Microcosm

Now with your vessel, any additional component in the existing gas line will require some modification, including rotating the gas inlet tube for the burner I think to the vertically down orientation O0

Derek 


PS...you will need a boiler water or steam pressure source for a gas regulator [irrespective of Brand or type selected]....I see your boiler has a plugged tapping in line with the burner axis, however on the opposite side of the boiler
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

morfa

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great ó and great advice!
  • Location: Kanata Ontario Canada
    • Morfa
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2020, 02:26:01 AM »

Thanks, some things to sleep on.
Need to put serious thought on how I might do those modifications.


Again thanks
Derek
Logged

southsteyne2

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 299
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2020, 03:11:16 AM »

i all I don't want to sound negative but I have been building and sailing steam boats and engines for years now and really can't see the need for for all these very expensive add-ons as all I have ever needed were a boiler feed pump with bypass and full burner also sailing in short runs 20 min or so to check should not run out of water  keep it simple.
Cheers
John
Logged

morfa

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 55
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great ó and great advice!
  • Location: Kanata Ontario Canada
    • Morfa
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2020, 03:48:48 AM »

Good points, open to all options, do nothing to modify.
Thanks
Derek
Logged

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,455
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2020, 04:57:41 AM »

I know that John..... southsteyene2 would never offer a negative comment.....and his point is certainly correct  O0 .......saying this, I am not aware of a marketed option for an engine driven boiler feed pump for his MSM Clyde setup


Derek ...morfa was simply asking for information on a gas valve setup in Raphaels posting........



I was going to add to my earlier post ...buy a $10.00 stop watch with an alarm, but thought that sounded a little tongue in cheek


Derek ..[in OZ]
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

rhavrane

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 569
  • Steam passionate collector
  • Location: Saint-Mandť, Val-de-Marne, France
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2020, 07:31:55 AM »

Bonjour,
I woudn'nt have imagined so many reactions to my post. As French collector, I have always built my steam plants with metric measures and bought my accessories to Anton or JMC (https://www.jmc-vapeur.fr/) Especially, the first one offers a 2mm piped gas line and JMC a 3 mm one.

Based on the prices I know, as I guess resellers take their margin, when I recently discovered Microcosm, Jin's products were almost half the price of my Frebch manufacturers so I tested him. Objectively, the quality is not equal but is worth its prices.   

Examples : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDF7jQmvvRo or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnNkqDPZnWw

Besides this, I fully understand and agree with John, all these accesories are not mandatry at all... but to my opinion, as they exist, they are reassuring.

One of my first boats had not a RC safety gas valve, a leaf blocked it in the middle of the basin, I went to get it barefoot and ended up in the hospital after stepping on a shard of a bottle  :((

I do not know if Anton goes on building or not these accessories, if you would be interested in one pg them, you would contact him, I am not at all in his business !
Logged
RaphaŽl
RaphaŽlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
Membre du Modele Yacht Club de Paris http://mycparis.fr/
Ma chaÓne YouTube:  http://www.youtube.com/user/rhavrane
Mes albums : https://picasaweb.google.com/104408627118165995713/

roycv

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,736
  • Location: S.W. Herts
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2020, 08:00:14 AM »

Hi all, well myself and Malcolm Beak started the ball rolling in November 1988 by publishing the automatic water level controller in Radio Control Boat Modeller magazine, and that was quickly followed by Malcolm's gas pressure regulator. valve. This was intended to allow a steam boat to sit out on the water with full pressure and the gas supply turned down until called upon and so not wasting gas or losing steam through the pressure release system.

The original gas pressure valve was constructed and quite cheap in parts.  The original open launch 'Cyril' has the same working parts from 1988 and is still working and comes out regularly for running.  The electronics were robust in choice of components and have also performed over the years.

I could ask Malcolm to put up his gas valve construction drawings if wanted?
 I had the same system in my Streamlinia which was on the St. Albans club stand in the Model Engineering exhibition the following year.  That worked very well.  I did go electric but that was a quest for speed rather than anything else.

To Southsteyne2 I can only say that is what Cheddar Models said to us when we demonstrated the system to them.  However they were quick to start looking at a similar water level control system and although using a different sensing method, within the year were selling their own kit to do the same job!

The cost of parts for our system was less than a fiver, I think the CM version was double that plus a nought.
Regards
Roy
Logged

frazer heslop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 258
  • Location: Durham
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2020, 11:26:56 AM »

Although Malcoms design is excellent you have to be in a position to be able to make it for yourself. Also from memory if using the original magazine build there is/was a problem with some pics shown back to front.
I made a couple of them in bronze not alloy as it furs up as does one of the French ? designs
I now run only basic set ups keeping it as simple as possible and would simply fit a hand pump bringing her along side to check the water level on a regular basis.
Another option not mentioned would be to fit a Goodall valve in the boiler and use a simple spray bottle as a pump as per the small loco guys use. This is what is fitted to my ongoing build as the boat is a bit small to get a hand pump fitted
Im surprised the plants makers dont offer an engine driven pump although it would be a simple job to make one again you have to be able to do so
cheers
frazer


 
Logged

roycv

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,736
  • Location: S.W. Herts
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2020, 12:00:35 PM »

Hi Fraser H, I know there was a publishers error with one wire not right but that was corrected.  I did not know there were any transposed photos though.  But over the years things move on and experience is gained so thanks for your information. 

The only thing that annoys is, as did happen, someone announced to me they had a better one!  Intrigued, I checked the circuit but it was very basic and did not take into account any failsafe which the original circuit had.  I think what was meant that there were less components! 

These days if anyone would take the trouble my circuit could be reduced to half a postage stamp size but with all the things needed to run a steam boat there is not much point.
I was with Malcolm yesterday and he was showing me his latest ideas in steam engines for model boats, I was impressed.
Best regards
Roy
Logged

frazer heslop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 258
  • Location: Durham
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2020, 09:22:47 PM »

Hi Roy, I built the circuit as published cannot remember a wiring problem. The system worked very well although I think I had to substitute the transistors not a mayor problem to overcome
I've seen a few circuits that have no  on/off delay so tend to end up with the inevitable problems
The transposed pics are for the gas regulator not the electronics

Guess now an op amp would be the way to go although my electronic knowledge is about 30 years out of date
I enjoyed building Malcolms MB22 engine a cracking little thing that punches above its weight.
I can understand the need for a gas safety cut off valve and also a regulator but have found in the small boats I now play with KISS rules OK
At the moment playing with a simple no tube flue boiler with a radiant burner coupled to a simple self starting single double acting wobbler just for the fun of it
Genuinely pleased to hear that Malcolm is still actively building and designing a true gentleman who has been kind enough to help when needed.
Keep well
kindest regards
frazer 
Logged

belli

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 42
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: New York (the other one)
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2020, 09:52:03 PM »

Hi Roy,
I would very much like to see the electronics, please post if you have the info.  Are the gas regulators the same as mentioned in Stan Bray's book?  I'll need to pull the book out to check.  Were these updated in anyway?
One issue is, I think MB was a jeweler and I guess could make these really small little gems as that was his skill, regrettably my fat fingers would never allow that.  I wanted to build the MB22 (?) engine as a lock-down project but it's just too tiny for me......
Logged

roycv

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,736
  • Location: S.W. Herts
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2020, 10:03:16 PM »

Hi Frazer don't get too effusive he reads this stuff and we don't want it going to his head!
I agree that MB 22 is a lovely engine, that is what was in my Streamlinia, and as long as we could keep the steam pressure up to 30 lbs. the engine would make her plane, just like in the adverts. 

Having seen an original with the original engine the performance is pathetic!   It just pootles along.  I had designed a rev counter I made 2 and Malcolm has the other ( a 2 off 555 circuit) and we found that a brass 2 inch prop running at 2000 revs was what was needed to plane a Streamlinia.  We used to have great fun testing etc,
As an aside I was always concerned about setting up the rev counter for accuracy and by chance I pointed it at a neon light and that registered as 3000 rpm.  Obvious when you think about it.
With that data I built a dummy plastic boiler and the gearbox I was using looked just like a turbine so I put plastic feed tubes in and it fooled quite a lot of steam enthusiasts.  The 9v 5 pole HFM motor slightly geared down but running on 12 volts gave 2000 rpm and the 2 X 6 volt SLA's hidden under the boiler weighed the same as a steam plant and she planes for 40 minutes.

My electronics stopped just before surface mounted stuff, and probably like yourself it started on valves!  What ever happened to suppressor triggered phantastrons?  I learnt mine as a techie in the RAF on a/c radar.
Regarding that w/l control circuit I had an odd experience.  The club puts on an annual model show, must have been in 1989 and I went out to the lads selling tickets to relieve them for lunch a few minutes later a chap arrived and bought a ticket.  Then he got out that issue of the magazine and turned to the circuit and told me he was having trouble with it could anyone help?

 I asked him how he knew about the exhibition and he said he was on holiday from South Aftrica and saw the advert on passing the school!  I told him it was his lucky day and Malcolm and I sorted him out.  He came and said goodbye before he left and he was just slightly stunned at the chance of that happening.
regards
Roy





Logged

roycv

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,736
  • Location: S.W. Herts
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2020, 10:26:58 PM »

Hi Belli, it might take me a time to find the circuit.  It is very basic and uses Veroboard, is that what you call it as well?  The circuit uses 2  X 556 chips these are 2 555 chips in one 14 pin chip.  I am not sure that these are still available.

 There are logically 2 parts to the circuit a transistor with an input from the sensing rod in the boiler which incorporates a 2 second delay then the conversion to a digital signal.  I seem to remember a second transistor which inverts the o/p so that the default is pumping water.  The second 556 has a simple drive to a standard servo that is spread over a 1 and 2 milli second pulse 50 times a second.  That is the normal servo control signal.
That sums up the idea and nowadays I would probably do it differently, but this was 35 years ago!

You also need an engine driven water pump although I did a special for someone who wanted to pump water using an electric motor.
The boiler needs a port for the water to be pumped in and on the top an insulated hole for the sensor rod to be sealed in.
So not just some electronics it does need some engineering.

Just to correct you Malcolm used to make jewelry as a hobby he is/was a research Boffin working for a UK government Agency.
We are both past our 80th. birthdays and it was all a long while ago!
regards
Roy


Logged

frazer heslop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 258
  • Location: Durham
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2020, 10:30:17 PM »

Im sure that is not the case and any accolades he may receive are well earned.
Oh yes the good old days pre trading standards  .No way could the original plant have made her plane
She is on my build list once I get my grubby hands on one to copy
I simplified the MB22 valve design using gauge 1 practice re the valve and ports and dont think the performance has suffered to any measurable degree
Started out on miniature valves and finished with surface mount for a well known Korean company , Did a little work for Marconi  ;)
Getting back to the original post and sorry for taking it off track
Paddleducks from memory have the drawings
cheers
Logged

roycv

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,736
  • Location: S.W. Herts
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2020, 10:39:38 PM »

Hi Frazer I think I can find a spare set of plans for Streamlinia.  Mine are copied from the 1937 Hobbies Annual!.

 It does suggest that you take a 40 inch by 8 inch by 4 inch piece of pine and start carving!  I made mine with bulkheads and 1/16th. ply.  You will need a spray strip if you want a dry deck. 

There are rather a lot of different tops as well.  After WW2 there was a radio controlled version sold as well.
I hope I have put up a photo as well.  You can see my spoof turbine!

regards
Roy
Logged

frazer heslop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 258
  • Location: Durham
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2020, 10:50:20 PM »

Hi Roy, many thanks I will pm you tomorrow as sister bacteria is telling me in no uncertain way its bed time and I have to do as Im told
Keep well. Ho hum it keeps the peace
kind regards
Frazer
Logged

belli

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 42
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: New York (the other one)
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2020, 08:49:12 PM »

Here's a scan of MB's valve.  Regrettably I don't have more details than this.
Logged

belli

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 42
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: New York (the other one)
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2020, 09:03:59 PM »

Here is Roy Amsbury's electronic level gauge.  Transistors were listed as ZTX302 which I think is a fairly standard NPN part (could use BC337, 2N4401). 
I think RH has a video where the boat owner put the LEDs in a signal light at the front so that he could see the levels, I guess you could use the NAV lights too...
Logged

belli

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 42
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: New York (the other one)
Re: Gas vs water - what happens when one runs out?
« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2020, 09:10:44 PM »

This post is a little OT but I'm not sure where to put it:
My first passion is really aero modelling and those fellows outnumber the steam boat fellows by about 1000:1.   The aeromodellers have a large following of people building electronic gadgets of every description, from single channel radios to full telemetry radios with all designs and code posted freely.  To add telemetry for the steam boats would be relatively trivial by today's efforts, the TX could display boiler pressure, engine speed, gas consumption and so on without adding too much mass to the boat.  The tricky bit might be the sensors themselves as commercial units would be a bit pricey but certainly doable.  There might be forums where these exist but I haven't looked for them.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up