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[derekwarner]

Question for ooyah/2........hope you are keeping well & social distancing on the cycle George......


My first issue with Gasmate Refils was blocking of the jets in small butane flame soldering torches, however the latest issue is the Ronson valve in my  refillable gas tank.....as per the following
----------------------------


Unable to get more than 2gm [weight] into the Forrest Classics UK refillable gas tank [from multiple new unopened Gasmate 200gm NW cans]
Have the appropriate valve removal forked tool
Standard Ronson gas valve in my refillable tank appears blocked
Unable to blow air [via mouth 4 PSI max] into the valve
Assuming a ball+ seat sealing without any internal soft sealing?
Is it best to soak the valve in neat Acetone?......time period?
[after removing the external sealing O-ring – common Nitrile, nor Viton is not compatible with Acetone]
Diggers Acetone from Bunnings appears highest value 100%
Is HP air blast then required?
Are those low cost Ultrasonic baths beneficial......[apart from for my dentures?]
Any comment greatly appreciated

Derek

[frazer heslop]

Hi Derek, just my two bobs worth
A lot of the small loco guys have been complaining about the same problem of late so think there may have been a problem with valves
I have not had any problems using the guys valves in the link and some are over 10 years old now
I have a small ultrasonic cleaner for jewellery cleaning and would recommend one but do check it is what it says it is as there are a lot from the land of who flung dung that are cheap rubbish and not actually ultrasonic
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/eversholt/m.html?item=174049082776&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562
keep well
cheers

[ooyah/2]

Question for ooyah/2........hope you are keeping well & social distancing on the cycle George......


My first issue with Gasmate Refils was blocking of the jets in small butane flame soldering torches, however the latest issue is the Ronson valve in my  refillable gas tank.....as per the following
----------------------------


Unable to get more than 2gm [weight] into the Forrest Classics UK refillable gas tank [from multiple new unopened Gasmate 200gm NW cans]
Have the appropriate valve removal forked tool
Standard Ronson gas valve in my refillable tank appears blocked
Unable to blow air [via mouth 4 PSI max] into the valve
Assuming a ball+ seat sealing without any internal soft sealing?
Is it best to soak the valve in neat Acetone?......time period?
[after removing the external sealing O-ring – common Nitrile, nor Viton is not compatible with Acetone]
Diggers Acetone from Bunnings appears highest value 100%
Is HP air blast then required?
Are those low cost Ultrasonic baths beneficial......[apart from for my dentures?]
Any comment greatly appreciated

Derek

Hi Derek,
Yes I am doing fine and look behind me before I blow my nose.!!!


I would advise you to buy a new valve from Clevendon steam and throw the old one away, you will spend more than the cost of a new valve by footering about with cleaners E.C.T.
and air pressure .
I note that the valves that Frazer has sent you the e-bay link to seam to have 2- different threads, the one at Clevendon has only the one thread   M4.5 x 0.5 which is The Ronson thread.
Speaking of threads I don't think it's fair to clog Jerry's thread with other things rather than his new boat, to discuss gas valves start a new thread.


George.

[derekwarner]

Thank you both................ Derek

[Jerry C]

Thanks for sticking up for my thread George but it’s done me a favour and brought it to the top. It takes me ages to find it when I want to refer to a photo for inspiration. Weather warming up now so I’m getting out on the bike more. Still nothing firm on when we can return to our boat.
Somewhere in this thread I remember having to replace my gas valve for similar reasons, also problems with cack in jet which we decided was caused by remnants of lubricant in pipe making process. The clue was that pipe used in medical kit was cleaned after forming when ordinary stuff wasn’t. Never had a problem since.
Jerry.

[derekwarner]

Thanks Moderator Peter.......for the creation of the new thread    & clean up on Jerrys' postings [error on my part]


Speaking with a some of our Live Steamers people, and yes contaminant in Gas cans appears to be Brand/batch related


Soaking the Ronson valve in White/Methylated Spirit, for 24 hours...then blow out with air was the recommendation


Will see the result this Saturday


Derek

[KNO3]

Has anyone tried installing a filter on the gas pipe to prevent jet clogging?
In the past I inserted a little cotton wool in the valve to act as a filter and didn't have any blocked jets, but also didn't use the system much.

More recently I have bought a very neat filter unit from Regner that can be used with gas, air and water, but haven't installed it yet. It uses replaceable cigarette filters!
https://www.regner-dampftechnik.com/product-page/wgl-filter-m5x0-5

[derekwarner]

That Regner filter housing looks interesting Calan..........even tho those cheap disposable cigarette cellulose filters [$0.06cents each?] have a low mechanical strength, having pressure on both sides [diminishing equally] means that the element would not collapse......the M5 plastic thread is sus for a gas  application

Interestingly, my Ronson valve was locked frozen [assumed a scontaminate & I could not get air [from my lungs] to open the internal valve & I could not depress the poppet into the valve body so soaked the valve in spirit for a few days


The 3D CAD Drawing from Google confirmed what I didn't realise is that when the refill spout enters the valve housing, it pushes the poppet valve spool off it's soft seal and allows gas thru a 90 degree side port and to enter the tank


When the tank emits liquid [75% tank volume?] the process is complete & the refill spout removed......the gas pressure + spring compression seals the poppet against internal leakage


Valve re-installed in the tank & all OK...able to put ~~120 something gms into the tank 

Derek

[derekwarner]

Apologies, I may have misunderstood the filter top housing material ....is it blackened brass? which would be totally suitable 


High pressure hydraulic filters has the flow onto the outer surface of the filter element, so the pressure is compressing the media which is supported by a metal cage........these cellulose cigarette filters are able to withstand 1 atmosphere [14.7 PSI] however this is both externally and internally imposed


The blackened housing shows a directional arrow thus  --->


Commercially produced gas tanks are tested to 375 PSI, & I have seen my gas tank pressure >80 PSI on a hot OZ sunny day.....so this could provide a differential pressure of 50 or 60 PSI?


I am not sure what would happen to the cellulose element?


Derek 

[KNO3]

Yes the filter housing is completely brass. Part of it is blackened chemically.
The arrow shows you the way to install the unit for correct flow.
I don't think anything would happen to the filter element since the flow is relatively low and it is well supported by the housing. I am sure they tested the unit before bringing it out on the market.

[derekwarner]

Would be very interested to hear the results after a tank or 2 in use......@ $0.06 each......certainly cheap enough to open up the housing to see any trapped material


Some time back, I drained/exhausted my refillable tank upside down........the butane in liquid form was the colour light Beer or mid strength urine

Derek

[Geoff]

I don't use the ronseal gas valve on one of my models as the venting looses a lot of gas and again sometimes its difficult to get the tank full enough. I adapted a gas blow lamp and soft soldered on a tube and union nut such that it screws onto the outlet from the refillable gas tank. Open the outlet with the filler tank upside down and  open its valve and liquid gas just flows in. The only gas you lose is whats in the short pipe.


You can't fill the tank completely as there will always be a bubble of gas at the top so no concerns over liquid gas at the burner. This works every time and saves quite a lot of gas.


Hope this may assist.


Cheers


Geoff

[derekwarner]

Hi Geoff....interestingly, quite a few French model steamers are using butane in the liquid form at the same burners most use


The commercial manufacturers of refillable gas tanks provide explanatory detail as to the ~~75% fill, then vent process etc.....


We read of UK or European steam modelers being concerned with low ambient temperatures, in OZ we can see a 30 degree C rise from dawn to mean lunchtime temperatures of gas tanks in open boats 


Australia has an established set of Standards [copy below] which include the construction and use of Model Gas Tanks........


So quote the extract......


"4.4 This Code of Practice applies to a Butane Gas only firing system supplied from a separate gas container at the vapour pressure normally between 140 to 180 KPa at 25°C.
4.5 The pressures contained within the butane container are directly related to temperature. This Code uses 50°C as the container temperature to determine the pressure and thus structural requirements of the container'


----------------


I hold an Authorised reporting capacity role within our AALS - AMBSC [Australian Model Boiler Steam Safety Committee]


Derek