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Author Topic: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop  (Read 4306 times)

ivorthediver

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CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« on: November 07, 2020, 04:21:33 pm »

I wonder if I might seek your advice please .


I have recently acquired a part built sailing model of a kit purchased by the original owner in 1999 but never completed .
The hull is built but there he lost interest it seems , and it is a well built planked hull in to which he has fitted as recommended a 6v motor , and although the instructions are in French [of which I know none] it appears straight forward and with the sloop chest duly raided I have fitted a sail winch and completed the rudder installation and I am now approaching the deck fitting out .


I see that I can fit a 6v SLA battery  with room  in the bow area and I am now faced with what electrics to fit that would complement this kit


Being a modeller brought up on ACTion gear I am fitting a standard distribution board , along with a speed controller of some type to control the motor but not sure which one to fit that will fit in as space is a tad tight .


I use Spektrum gear which along with my collection of ACTion equipment has served me well so far .


Could any of you sailer modellers offer me some advice please on the best choice to make in this respect . :}
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tonyH

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2020, 06:12:23 pm »

You may mean Cap Sizun? If so have a look at this one. https://forum-naval.forumactif.com/t5186-cap-sizun-le-langoustier

Good Luck. :-))
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ivorthediver

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2020, 08:11:41 pm »

Hi Tony , thanks for that  but have seen that site and gained many photos from it very helpful detail on it but thanks for trying to help .


I am happy to complete the model but not so sure about the correct ESC to use at present .
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tonyH

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2020, 10:22:13 am »

HI Ivor,
It was just to get the idea of what you actually have to start with so, for example a rough size and weight would be useful, as would an idea of what 6v motor is there (Diameter and length would be a start - photo's would be better)What size or propellor will it be driving?
Tony
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ivorthediver

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2020, 12:41:19 pm »

Hi Tony , the hull is 29"x 10", and the prop is 1 1/4" 4 blade brass but was a three blade plastic , and the battery will be a 6v  2 1/2 x 1 3/4" x 4" and is a 5 AH size  and weighs under a kilogram can't remember the exact thou ..., the motor supplied with the kit I think is approx a 300 ish size with a 2mm shaft and was fitted at the time of purchase .


I have no way of being certain but most of  the kit appears to be there but many of the sealed bags may have been opened but to early to tell and it apparently requires 43 working blocks and has a main sail on a boom  two in front and a triangle one on top and I have a rigging plan which looks a nightmare to a modeller who's years have been spent making military scale models and Tugs [ all with fibreglass hulls only and the rest scratch built ...i.e. Manxman / Troubridge / Victorious/ Chaser and a batch 3 OPV , apart from flower class corvettes and the normal run of the mill plastic conversions , and a very large Damian ASD 2810 which has been the clubs rescue boat ...... but have always liked sailing boats [ provided it had an auxiliary motor and along came this just as I was thinking of hanging up my tools  :}






I have plenty of club members who do sail [that I have recovered over the past 11 years including recovering from the bottom of our club lake lake 5+m deep [ when I still had my Scuba Diving kit ] so vowed I would never sail by wind alone .


I have had the offer of a ESC from a fellow member which I will take up but as I said before I'm in" uncharted waters " here and perhaps being over cautious in getting it right .


I will obviously have to adapt the decking to accept the installation / removal of the battery [ which I suspect the builder had in mind as although the hull it built he omitted a couple of deck beams to allow for insertion behind the bowsprit ] , and been thinking of installing a box type structure to slip the battery into [ without a lid obviously ] which should  "contain "  any movement whilst sailing  as velcro is fine but in the proposed position would be neigh impossible to remove when the occasion arose , and don't want to risk damaging the hull during the exercise . and I note that the French plans nominate 2.5 kilo's of lead shot as ballast , [ but not knowing any French that could be repeated do not know if that is.    or is not.    including the battery weight...  :embarrassed: .

I still have enough lead shot from old weight belts so thats no issue


Very keen to make a start but naturally very nervous as wood is less forgiving than plasticard ever was and if materials are missing then where to purchase similar type replacement materials from ?..........still  life is full of trials and tribulations but my pockets are not bottomless and my skills are from  down a parallel course ..........
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SailorGreg

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2020, 02:15:59 pm »

If you plan to do any regular sailing (as opposed to motoring), I suggest you try and place your battery as low as possible in the hull and ideally somewhere towards the middle of the hull, not in the bows.  If it was me, I would leave the SLA ashore and go for a smaller, lighter alternative.  Some of the pictures on the French website show a false keel with a ballast bulb.  Do you plan to use one of those?  You will get much improved sailing performance if you do.  Light in the hull, heavy in the keel is the way to go.

Lovely boat, by the way! I envy you picking up a find like this.  I guess the kit is no longer available.  Shame.

Greg

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2020, 02:39:09 pm »

On that basis you're probably only running at <5amps so as long as you use a slow start ESC anything around the 15amp would be ample.
ONLY my guestimate of course and there are plenty on here who know loads more.Greg advice re. SLA is definitely the best, simply because it gives you the chance of placing the ballast where it's needed and not where the battery demands..
 
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ivorthediver

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2020, 02:50:24 pm »

Thanks Greg for your advice , I had considered a Lipo as I use them elsewhere, [11.3] but then I would require a voltage reducer to drive the installed motor.     more kit offset against greater duration    ?


Not a techie so science and formulas are wasted on me as being dyslexic limits some of my abilities or at least frustrates my abilities regrettably   :embarrassed:

[/size][size=78%]In answer to the "Bulb" suggestion , I saw the one discussed on the French website mentioned earlier and whilst I would be confidant in [/size]constructing one and clamping it to the keel the lakes in which we sail as a club are cursed with weed and flotsam which from witnessing others frustration I preferred the design of this vessels keel incorporating the rudder with minimum projections liable to foul the keel line , and whilst I admire others who are not only very adept at sailing get very anul about coefficients, line , and the technical niceties of sailing , I would be content just swanning around on the ripples of others wakes , but thats just me sadly ......[size=78%]
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ivorthediver

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2020, 02:55:35 pm »

High Tony , yes Gregs advice on the Lipo is sound advice I accept but , unless I rip out the motor installed  and refit a 12v motor I can't see an answer to the point I made earlier ............but open to alternatives within financial restraints before I proceed with the build  :embarrassed:
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tonyH

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2020, 03:30:08 pm »

Why rip out the motor? Unless its very picky it should work ok on 7.4 volts from a Lipo? Normally a 6v motor will work quite happily on the 7.2 volts of a NiMh.
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ivorthediver

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2020, 04:05:04 pm »

So the 7.4 lipo would be sound with it ..........sounds promising compromise then ......what capacity [ allowing ample safety margin as I learn how to sail the model ] always go for safety is a habit born out of my Diving days which is very hard to ignore  :embarrassed:
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JimG

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2020, 06:38:50 pm »

Look for a 2S LiFe pack, this has a nominal voltage of 6.6V and full charge of 7.2V so will be nearer the voltage of the SLA battery.
Jim
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tonyH

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2020, 06:45:08 pm »

 I'm only a learner at them since I mostly don't need the lightness so have almost always used NiCads or NiMh.It really depends on the motor spec. as to a red line If it hasn't been fitted yet, or it's easily accessible, then it wouldn't take much to replace it, either cost-wise or otherwise with one of known spec. from someone like Component Shop. As you'll know from the military stuff, most motors are versions of the Mabuchis and the diameters etc. stay pretty constant.
As far as battery capacity is concerned, look at Component Shop again and see what the sizes/weights/prices are and decide from there. https://www.componentshop.co.uk/
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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2020, 10:33:25 pm »

As Jim says, a 2s LiFe would run your motor just fine.  A battery like this would probably serve you well unless you expect to motor around for hours at a time.  Regarding ballast, I understand the weed/foreign object issue having suffered myself from a similar problem.  Have you considered a lead shoe fixed to the bottom of the keel that mimics the original keel line at a lower level without weed-catching angles or edges?  That could still be removable for display purposes but would allow you to get your ballast as low as possible and lessen the chance of you needing your scuba gear for a rescue.

Whatever you choose (and it's your model after all), do let us know how you get on.

Happy building

Greg

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2020, 07:06:13 pm »

Thanks Greg ,
 I must admit I am itching to get started on this my first sailing model [ always assuming that an auxiliary motor does not place my model which will be renamed "PELLEW" in another category] as I must admit I had trouble finding this post since viewing yesterday as I was not sure where I would find it  :embarrassed:


Now with the benefit of advice from the membership I feel a little more confident in proceeding ......not with the actual construction , more in doing it in the right order and without doing it twice and correctly , so many thanks to you all who helped me straighten out some issues that were causing me to be worried and confused


My first step will be to go through the kit and make sure I have what I need to start ,and that if not ....I know where to source replacements..... as  the company  that supplied it may not be around to give that information ? since 1999 or worst still where to get it


Most  of the packs within the kit have been opened so I  dont know if they may have been used elsewhere  :o .


Deciphering bits of the drawing and viewing the items alerts me to things I know are not there so I have been sourcing some items in readiness [ as a modeller I know only to well when more than one model is on the go you use a bit and forget to replace it later .]......some items may be easy to replace or in your sloop chest .....but as I said this is my first wooden sailing model so it will be a challenge


Some bits may Not be up to scratch and need to be remade to of a more durable material [ never been a fan of white metal ] so better check my brass stocks and sharpen my tools .....God its like a  " re run"  of the Youtube series on the pilot cutter being rebuilt in America bit by bit ...........a great Fan but not really keen on such a challenging epic of a task .


Again my sincere thanks to you all and if I may I will ask for your assistance again as and when it raises , but never been able to upload photo's successfully yet and you are experienced more than I in this area of modelling [ I thought a belaying pin was used by lazy seamstress.. :embarrassed:


One point comes to mind on this Big Girl.... is how do you transport it with all that sail area .......on my other models you just removed bits of the superstructure but with a hull this big and a bowsprit and mains , and jib sails I may need to get a lorry and sell my car  :((










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SailorGreg

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2020, 02:54:29 pm »

Transport is always an issue with large sailing models.  The only reasonable way (stand fast owning a motor home or large van) is to have the rig (and bowsprit in your case) designed for straightforward removal so you can pack them away or at least store them in a rig bag or box.  If you start out knowing you will have to do this, it is not too difficult to engineer a process which allows fairly quick rigging and de-rigging.  It will never be as quick as flicking a switch and popping your boat in the water, but it's worth the extra minutes for the pleasure of watching your craft sailing around.

Quick release connections to the sheets are easy to arrange with clips like this.  Rigging connections might take a little more thought.  Perhaps you could have a single shroud each side hooked to an eye bolt in the gunwhale and the other rigging made of elastic to provide the scale effect, also just hooked in place?  The bowsprit is designed at full scale to be easily slid inboard, so you could follow that in your model - unship the inboard end and slide back along the deck, leaving its rigging in place. 

It's a lovely model, and well worth a bit of thought to see her sailing without taking all day to rig.

Cap Sizun (le langoustier) Top1212

ivorthediver

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2020, 06:53:48 pm »

I couldn't agree with you more Greg , and hopefully the wait to find her at long last .


On the point of rigging I Said that I would spend the day going through the kit in case there were some shortages ....and guess what I have no sheaves for the blocks it requires [ 43 ] so if you know where I can obtain them I would be very grateful to know of it .
the instructions that I have been able to get a translation of [ though not very good as it keeps referring back to the French instructions which makes the translation about as much use as a chocolate teapot .
I has a pack with the wood sections to glue together , and the pins but no  brass sheaves  >:-o to which it refers .


Ok so I thought having ordered the replacement motor and ESC I would see what state the prop shaft was in and the universal couplings hmmmmmm......well the shaft had no lube applied and was bowed ....so managed to get it into a reasonable state and refitted it only to find that the shaft had no flats on either the shaft or the motor journal to which it was slid inside  :((  .....so going to look past the Varnish and check it a lot more thoroughly before she has a soak test in the water


Thank you Greg , for the valuable advice but which of the pulleys / blocks should be replaced with working ones rather than decoration please and should I supplement some with turnbuckles which should be a tad quicker unless I am mistaken  :embarrassed:
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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2020, 05:42:53 pm »


On the point of rigging I Said that I would spend the day going through the kit in case there were some shortages ....and guess what I have no sheaves for the blocks it requires [ 43 ] so if you know where I can obtain them I would be very grateful to know of it .

I has a pack with the wood sections to glue together , and the pins but no  brass sheaves  >:-o to which it refers .


Thank you Greg , for the valuable advice but which of the pulleys / blocks should be replaced with working ones rather than decoration please and should I supplement some with turnbuckles which should be a tad quicker unless I am mistaken  :embarrassed:

You don't say what size sheave you require, but these might do the job. They come in a range of sizes.  A more detailed search than I have done could give you other sources.  As for which should be dummies and which actually working, that is down to your own choice.  For example, you will need to decide if you want to be able to raise and lower the mainsail or keep it fully rigged all the time.  If fully rigged, you won't need to replicate the halyards accurately (or at all if you want to keep things simple).  I would start planning your rigging from a blank sheet of paper - draw out the mast, boom, gaff and bowsprit and add the sails and connecting points.  Keep everything to the bare minimum you need to make the rig work.  Then any additions will be cosmetic and you can go to town on those if you want, or leave them out to keep everything straightforward.  Models like this owe a lot of their character to the complexity of the rigging, but don't drive yourself to distraction trying to copy the full size rigging, or even the excellent models on that French website.  Do what makes you happy.  And you can always add details later if you want to.  As for turnbuckles, they might make rigging easier in the early days, but I think you will find that once you have got everything set up, you will rarely adjust them (and they don't fit the scale appearance very well).  Perhaps try them first off and then see if you can move to a simpler but slightly more scale solution.

But most of all - enjoy your build!


Greg

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2020, 06:57:36 pm »

Thank you Greg , they are the ones I viewed earlier today but they failed to show thickness of the sheave only diameter , but I have asked Sarah to check and let me know in due course .


The ones I need seem to be 6mm in diameter and no more than 2mm thick , so will have to wait .for her reply .


Thanks for your response  Greg,   which I greatly appreciate
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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2020, 06:54:07 pm »

Well the deeper I go into the "kit" the more seems to have been misappropriated , but nothing I cant resolve where the type is obvious .... with a few exceptions .


My biggest issue seems to be rudder movement which is slight to put it mildly , and having tried pulleys , eyes , and reconfiguring the servo schematics its still very slim at about 1/2;" total in either direction , is this normal in this type of period vessel ?.
I have remade the installed tiller three times and lengthened it but all to no avail , and just bought a new metal geared 8 kg torque servo from C Shop.and a much longer arm to fit it so perhaps that will solve this issue .


Another issue is the missing bulwark capping which was apparently cedar , tried pine cut to shape but is not flexible enough to "twist" and follow the top of the bulwark profile , so looks like its back to 6mm plywood  :((  cut to profile and pinned / glued in place which will then have to be painted rather than matt varnish which would have been my preference would have been oak stained and matt varnished not a racing yacht  was she not ?

After all is said and done thats the problem with taking over another ones project .
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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2020, 10:49:19 am »

Well the deeper I go into the "kit" the more seems to have been misappropriated , but nothing I cant resolve where the type is obvious .... with a few exceptions .


My biggest issue seems to be rudder movement which is slight to put it mildly , and having tried pulleys , eyes , and reconfiguring the servo schematics its still very slim at about 1/2;" total in either direction , is this normal in this type of period vessel ?.
I have remade the installed tiller three times and lengthened it but all to no avail , and just bought a new metal geared 8 kg torque servo from C Shop.and a much longer arm to fit it so perhaps that will solve this issue .


Rudder throw is usually described in degrees.   On most model boats, about 35-40 either side does the job, much more doesn't do any more steering, but does act as a brake.  Since most servos naturally offer 35-45 degrees each side of centre, simple geometry says that having both the tiller arm and the servo arm about the same length will have the rudder throw match that of the servo.  It also helps a lot if both arms are at right angles to the line between the two pivots when centred. 
A servo arm much longer than the tiller arm usually results in the tiller arm being toggled over and latching the rudder facing the wrong way, if it doesn't break anything while doing so.
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ivorthediver

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2020, 06:02:48 pm »

Well however it is measured there was not enough old fruit .
Sought advice and ended up removing it from where it was originally fitted and moved it nearer the stern and set it at an angle which greatly eased the throw and stripped out the entire fitting and cleaned it up and it now works fine with direct linkage via dual control rods so now working out all the mast ironwork needed which went walkabout prior to me getting the remains of the  kit .
Learning a whole new language and terminology now , and thoroughly enjoying the new realm of modelling you will be pleased to hear Greg .......very addictive it has become
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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2020, 01:48:54 pm »


Learning a whole new language and terminology now , and thoroughly enjoying the new realm of modelling you will be pleased to hear Greg

I am!   :-)) O0

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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2020, 02:10:17 pm »

Thanks dear Sir , onward and upward .....or should that be "On a different tack and coming about now "


Thanks for looking in Greg .
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Re: CAP Sizan Lobster Sloop
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2020, 08:31:40 pm »

Transport is always an issue with large sailing models.  The only reasonable way (stand fast owning a motor home or large van) is to have the rig (and bowsprit in your case) designed for straightforward removal so you can pack them away or at least store them in a rig bag or box.  If you start out knowing you will have to do this, it is not too difficult to engineer a process which allows fairly quick rigging and de-rigging.  It will never be as quick as flicking a switch and popping your boat in the water, but it's worth the extra minutes for the pleasure of watching your craft sailing around.

Quick release connections to the sheets are easy to arrange with clips like this.  Rigging connections might take a little more thought.  Perhaps you could have a single shroud each side hooked to an eye bolt in the gunwhale and the other rigging made of elastic to provide the scale effect, also just hooked in place?  The bowsprit is designed at full scale to be easily slid inboard, so you could follow that in your model - unship the inboard end and slide back along the deck, leaving its rigging in place. 

It's a lovely model, and well worth a bit of thought to see her sailing without taking all day to rig.

Cap Sizun (le langoustier) Top1212
Thanks Greg , Since starting I have found that very little of the original kit was present , so have spent an age compiling parts and or manufacturing them from scratch .
I think as I am new to sailing boats the best thing would be to get her in the water in her intended form and then look to re rig her in a quicker format having learnt the ropes if you will forgive the phrase .


Most of the mechanical issues are now resolved and its getting down to the fitting of the deck whilst ensuring she will be watertight as far as is practical .


To this end I have bought some 1.5mm ply and some slow cure epoxy resin which I will glue to the deck beams paying particular attention to the peripheral edges where the scuppers drain the deck ........ then fit the planking to that surface as the current deck runs all over the place and I wouldn't want to risk her drainage runs in her current form ....hence the precautions .
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