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Author Topic: Rivetts  (Read 2511 times)

Stavros

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Rivetts
« on: October 11, 2007, 05:29:37 PM »

Now me being the tight fisted so and so me is needed to simulate rivet heads on my Tid Tug so having found some plastic ones and nearly had heatr attack on the price a cheaper alternative was sought.
In comes the humble dressmakers pin after drilling in excess of 150 holes and cutting and gluing pins in place job done,it goes to show if you use the brain for thinking sometimes it pays off

Stavros
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gribeauval

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Re: Rivetts
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2007, 07:36:39 PM »

Being a Yorkshireman and therefore very careful with money I found these in the 'pound shop' that were the correct size and shape for the bolts on my 1/12th Tyne Lifeboat.A quick spray with metallic paint and there we have self adhesive bolts!!  ;) I also use pins for rivet heads and if you look carefully they have several sizes of heads depending upon the use of the pin.

Mike

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Voyager

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Re: Rivetts
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2007, 11:02:57 PM »

Being a Yorkshireman and therefore very careful with money I found these in the 'pound shop' that were the correct size and shape for the bolts on my 1/12th Tyne Lifeboat.A quick spray with metallic paint and there we have self adhesive bolts!!  ;) I also use pins for rivet heads and if you look carefully they have several sizes of heads depending upon the use of the pin.

Mike



I'm pleased you said that and not me!!!
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Rivetts
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2007, 06:54:31 PM »

 The Butt strap rivets are a kit part in white metal but the forward bulkhead rivets are actually pin heads, which I wanted to match.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Rivetts
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2007, 08:14:10 PM »

The Butt strap rivets are a kit part in white metal but the forward bulkhead rivets are actually pin heads, which I wanted to match.
Honestly, I do NOT want to open old wounds or start another bout of in-fighting. Rivets are small. The heads are not much more than 1" in diameter. Oversize rivets degrade a model no matter how well they have been placed (as yours are). Using pin-heads and so on may seem to be a good idea, but their use is really a no-no. A bit of 1/32" wire head will be more than adequate, especially when painted. With modelling understatement is much more important than overstatement....as previously mentioned about painting. To the "observer" of a model I feel that an instinctive "feel" is important. Even a disinterested observer will unwittingly know that things like steps are too high (or low) and little things like that can colour a viewers perception of a model. Please do not think of me as a "rivet-counter", far from it! I am a crude builder who just likes to get the scale "about right"....but scale makes the difference.BY
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Rivetts
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2007, 09:56:40 PM »

How about a rivet measurer then!! {-)

Seriously though as with so many things compromise is the name of the game.  I am aware of the fact that the rivets are a bit on the big side however as I started with a kit (Say nothing Bryan) and the hull was partly riveted I had only two alternatives, namely strip off all the original ones and start again or continue in a manner that matches the original kit. 

Obviously I chose the latter.  Not perfect but lets also put this into context, this is the first time I have ever made a working model boat such as this so everything I do is a learning experience.  Yes the rivets are a bit on the big side but there are very few who will notice.  Also when I compare my finishes with a number of examples of the same kit completed without the added detail do I think it looks better for having them or not?  Of course I do.

There is no doubt in my mind it was worth doing and the overall effect is far better for it.

As for understatement vs overstatement, I have to disagree I'm afraid.  Most of the effects applied to plastic models are to enhance the situation to make things stand out.  We apply washes to enhance shadow, we apply dry brush techniques to enhance highlights, we use slightly differrent shades of paint to enhance surface textures, all of which are designed to emphasise the differrences of shade and texture.  It depends on what you are doing and the way you want it to appear when finished.  Talk to anyone who paints figures about enhancement, that is the very essence of how they achieve thier realism.

At the end of the day it is horses for courses.  My model is going to be quite significantly weathered and I want all the detail I can get on the surface to allow the paint techniques to bring them out.

As for a 1" rivet head, at 1/35th scale that is nearly 30 thou or 0.75 mm.  That just wasn't enough of a differrence to strip all the existing rivets off the kit and start again.
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Stavros

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Re: Rivetts
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2007, 10:10:15 PM »

A pin Head is actually 25though too small for 20th scale so as you Brian it is as near to scale apperance as possible O0


Stavros
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Shipmate60

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Re: Rivetts
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2007, 10:36:09 PM »

Just one point,
What is the actual size of a rivet head with about 20 coats of paint as on an older working ship.
Sorry I cant get very worked up about exact sizes of rivets on water tanks.
This is one area that was rarely chipped as the inner coating was a concrete wash that would crack if chipped too hard.

Bob
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Bryan Young

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Re: Rivetts
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2007, 01:14:10 AM »

How about a rivet measurer then!! {-)

Seriously though as with so many things compromise is the name of the game.  I am aware of the fact that the rivets are a bit on the big side however as I started with a kit (Say nothing Bryan) and the hull was partly riveted I had only two alternatives, namely strip off all the original ones and start again or continue in a manner that matches the original kit. 

Obviously I chose the latter.  Not perfect but lets also put this into context, this is the first time I have ever made a working model boat such as this so everything I do is a learning experience.  Yes the rivets are a bit on the big side but there are very few who will notice.  Also when I compare my finishes with a number of examples of the same kit completed without the added detail do I think it looks better for having them or not?  Of course I do.

There is no doubt in my mind it was worth doing and the overall effect is far better for it.

As for understatement vs overstatement, I have to disagree I'm afraid.  Most of the effects applied to plastic models are to enhance the situation to make things stand out.  We apply washes to enhance shadow, we apply dry brush techniques to enhance highlights, we use slightly differrent shades of paint to enhance surface textures, all of which are designed to emphasise the differrences of shade and texture.  It depends on what you are doing and the way you want it to appear when finished.  Talk to anyone who paints figures about enhancement, that is the very essence of how they achieve thier realism.

At the end of the day it is horses for courses.  My model is going to be quite significantly weathered and I want all the detail I can get on the surface to allow the paint techniques to bring them out.

As for a 1" rivet head, at 1/35th scale that is nearly 30 thou or 0.75 mm.  That just wasn't enough of a differrence to strip all the existing rivets off the kit and start again.
Nice reply. Was'nt knocking you as a person or builder, but my point remains valid. Quite a number of postings recently have suggested the use of sewing pins to simulate rivets. OK if you are building at 1/12 I suppose, but at 1/96.97th etc. they are pretty ugly. Any more thoughts on gratings?
I read with interest your item on "keeping the lads interested" (or something)...can you get them to design and make a grating jig? My only idea was to find a blade as wide as the thickness of the wood and cut the wood in alternative widths...if that makes any sense! Cheers. BY.
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Re: Rivetts
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2007, 09:36:17 AM »

Bob
If the painter was appying the paint thickly after 20 coats then the rivets would look like bumps  and what scale would they be .
daz
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Shipmate60

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Re: Rivetts
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2007, 09:53:51 AM »

One minor point though, water tanks are usually lagged, so wouldn't see any.
Just a point about sizes.
Guardrails "grow" with the amount of paint applied, so do lots of other parts.
Lots of rivets are also countersunk too.
Just a few points to think about, thats all.

Bob
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Rivetts
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2007, 01:09:12 PM »

If you look very closely at the picture above you will see I have added sunken rivets to the deck plating.  These won't even be visible until the deck is painted and the paint given a brown wash to fill the shadow.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Rivetts
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2007, 07:15:20 PM »

Not quite on "rivets", but more to do with paint thickness. One of the last re-fits I did included taking all the paint off to bare metal. The estimation of the weight of the paint was nearly 100 tons! On the Bridge wings we had a wonderful brass plate stating that the "front" of the ship was "X" feet and so many sixteenths of an inch from the mark. Pretty stupid after a couple of coats of paint!
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