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[DBS88]

I am on a journey to build my own twin engined steam powered WW2 Black Swan Sloop, my Grandfathers ship, HMS Wren U28. On the journey I have made some diversions and this is another one, the restoration of a Torpedo Boat Destroyer. The reason for the diversion was having seen photos of this model I believed there was a lot I could learn from it, lessons that would improve the build of HMS Wren. Any way by chance I came across the seller and ask him questions about the boat, he is a dealer in fine model boats, and he honestly confessed his knowledge of this model, its specification and its history was a bit thin. So after waiting weeks for him to bring the model down south from where it was stored I finally got the chance to see it. Now to be truthful, I thought that I could learn all that I needed to from viewing this boat, so had no intention of buying it. I was fascinated by the engineering, by the mechanical set up, so wanted to see it first hand. From the photos I had been sent  I knew it had a large boiler with twin engines and the plumbing looked great so an ideal set up to learn from. Again from the photos I could see the boat was not finished and was not that struck by the looks of the model. So when I saw it i was taken aback by just how good the model is, the quality of the hull and fittings matched the amazing quality of the engineering so that was me a lost cause, and I duly parted with the money and became the proud owner of this Torpedo Boat Destroyer - it was un named and had an uncertain history, so here is the story of the restoration that has begun but is not yet complete. This is the photo of how i first saw this model in the flesh.

[KNO3]

Interesting story. More photos please!

[Colin Bishop]

Is that a TBD or a torpedo boat? It appears to have a bow tube.

Colin

[DBS88]

Here is what I knew about the boat when I bought it.  It has a large boiler, 12 inches long by 5 inches in dia, the boiler was unusual in that it had two chimneys, unknown manufacturer. The steam was used to drive twin Stuart Turner engines, the seller believed they were Sirius Engines. The engines drive twin 3 1/2 inch props. The boat is 8 feet long, so just as well I have an estate car!!! The boat had suffered some minor damage in storage and transport. So no paper work, no idea who made it, no idea of when it was made, no idea what it was a model of and a concern that more than person had had a go at getting this to run.


On closer inspection, when I had got the model home and into the basement, I began to believe that this model may never have been run on a lake or possibly ever been fired up. So plenty of red flags or warning signs that should have put me off buying this.


Here are some more photos as I first saw the model and a photo that possibly explains some of the damage, but also, they begin to show the true majesty of this epic model.

[KNO3]

What exactly is damaged?

I didn't realise the boat was 8 feet long. That's going till be a challenge to move and store.

[KBIO]

Hello!
This is a hell of a boat and we are curious to know everything on it.
Is the boiler a return flue? I don't understand why there is two chimneys.
I agree with you that the boat is too clean to have been fired up once. Even with enclosed engines's crankshafts..
Mine are oily after the first sailing and the oil goes everywhere I can't clean!.    But I am the bad example!!
Yes, More photos will be greatly appreciated.
Congratulation for the purchase.
And no doubt that the way you behave when you go step by step , through your steam plants, we shall enjoy the happy smoke soon!
(Mayhem does not provide the flagrance of the hot oil , yet! Pity!!)
Have fun!
Regards.

[Geoff]

From looking at it, whilst it has two funnels it looks like only one on the actual boiler. Its an early type, possibly Daring or Boxer as both had bow torpedo tubes and and an open gun platform and twin funnels. There were very many different types of that vintage as the navy gave specifications but no general designs and the builders just built what they wanted so some had two funnels and other four or even six!


I'll do a bt more research.


Interesting model though and thanks for posting.


Cheers


Geoff

[Geoff]

In hindsight it may be a composite as the bow torpedo tubes were a feature of the very early destroyers but the midships mounted twin (pointing in different directions) was a much later feature and that it is mounted on a deckhouse seems incongruous due to weight considerations.


Early destroyers were not very stable and whilst typically carried a number of tubes the aft tubes were more typically single deck mounted. Nevertheless its a very fine model of a typical destroyer from the 1895 period which deserves restoration and sailing.


Cheers


Geoff

[derekwarner]

I believe images of this steam plant may have been posted in MB in.....1989?....our Colin Bishop may be able to throw a closer light ....[I subscribed to that Publication in that era, however I think the magazines came out by Convict Sea Freight ...or 3 Months behind the UK]


The Sirius engines engines being without a reversing function were connected in this build via a 3 shaft 1:1 reversing transmission to one engine, so both engines provided counter outboard rotating propeller shafts


The images you post confirm a similar layout with the transmission box athwart ships


I do not  remember the engines being bed mount offset with the Stdb engine being Fwd by say 1/2".....but assume this was to minimise the overall engines footprint necessary courtesy of the headcap banjo fittings


Again, I have no memory in the magazine of the boiler in the steam plant


So suffice to say, you appear to have some quality 'near vintage' steam components .....& in one boat


Would be interesting to understand the vessels displacement/weight.......and more so, if the 8' long vessel could suspend the steam plant...and float?


I do not say this in any critical sense.......as you have questioned if the boiler had ever been fired up?


Derek

[Geoff]

Me again - on looking at the model in more detail I think the purpose of the raised aft superstructure, on the model, it to provide clearance for the engines. - maybe?


Cheers


Geoff

[Colin Bishop]

Geoff is right, it could indeed be a very early TBD. The tubes aft on some of these were 14 inch as opposed to the much bigger bow one. There are some illustrations in David Lyon's book 'The First Destroyers'.

Derek, I will see if I can find anything in MB in 1989.

Colin

[Geoff]

The more I look at this model the more interesting it becomes, the bridge deck gun bulwarks are probably a little low when compared to the deck railings forward - also on the real ships these were invariably canvas covered and not solid. From a modelling perspective, and from experience, I think you will suffer from oxygen starvation as I can't really see how air will reach the boiler. Again I think the model is in an unfinished state and the real purpose of the construction, and size, was to see if it could be made steam powered hence the large boiler for the engines.


However for whatever reason the project was not finished, maybe the original builder became unwell. I would suggest you try to work out a scale from the size of the guns and how tall a crew member would need to be as this can guide you as to the rest of the fittings.


A really fascinating find!!


Cheers


Geoff

[DBS88]

Thank you for the feedback. The damage to the model is fairly minor scuffs and knocks to the paint, bent railings etc. Have included a photo of the props, since the photo clearly shows the sort of damage, but more interestingly gives a second clue to the identity of the model, the first clue being the bow torpedo tube. From the photo of the props you will notice the second clue is the beautiful sculpted hull over the props. These two clues lead me to believe this to be a model based on HMS Daring/Decoy built by Thornycroft in 1894. At the time HMS Daring was reported in newspapers as being the fastest boat ever!! So your thoughts and initial research appear to suggest that Torpedo Boat Destroyer HMS Daring is a strong contender for this model. The front torpedo tube was dropped on later boats because the boats were faster than the torpedos so risked overtaking there own torpedo!!!!
Have also included a photo of the boiler sat on the bench so that both funnels can be clearly seen. The boiler is a return flue boiler, will post photos of the internals at a later time.
The engines are not Sirius engines, they are the smaller Sun engines, which provides another clue to the age of this model. Sirius engines have cast on there side Stuart, Sun engines have cast on there side ST. Stuart Turner ceased production of the Sun Engines about 30 years ago - so now believe the model to be at least thirty years old. I have next to no information on Sun Engines so any help greatly received.
With respect to the displacement I will work it out along with the scale speed etc. Save to say I have put in the grandkids paddling pool to check for leaks. Yes it rolled alarmingly so anyone putting on the water would have feared for its survival. That said its a solid wood, carved out, construction so naturally buoyant, so I put a few kilos of lead in down low and this improved matter no end so I am hopeful all will be well. From the photo you will see that the water is above the painted water line.
I agree with Geoff and believe there has been some modellers licence used to raise deck heights to cover the engines and boiler so it will never be a true to scale model. Talking of scale if we assume the model to be HMS Daring/Decoy they were 185 feet in length so at 8 feet this model is approx 1:24 so allows for good detail to be added.
Lastly here is a photo I found on the internet of HMS Daring moored on the Thames in 1894.

[KBIO]

Hello!
I am still intrigued by the boiler and :
- What the second  chimney for?.
- The steam path (overheating) toward the engines.
- The 2 clack valves seems upside down ! But are they ?
And at he end, I wonder if , with such an available power, the boat won't turn around the propellers !
Very interesting indeed! Clean and promising!
Must be a flying dragon on the water. 
Regards.

[Colin Bishop]

Yes, I would agree, the model is based on Daring/Decoy. Material in David Lyon's book seems to support this and the semi tunnel stern is a Thornycroft givaway. Daring had her funnels raised around 1900 and Decoy's funnels were also higher by then from the drawings.

There is a model in the the Science Museum collection (now no longer on display) which looks very much like Daring. It is in the bottom left corner in the photo below. It shows the typical original all black colour scheme including the underwater hull. Lyon's book devotes over two pages to various alternative colour schemes that were tried out both for wartime and something a bit smarter for peacetime i.e. red inside cowl vents and grey turtlebacks so there are probably plenty of otpions there. The current paint scheme on the model seems to be very unlikely! Decks appear to have been a mixture of bare steel and corticene.

I'm no steam expert but this You Tube video says the Sun engine was introduced in 1927. The fact that the model is carved from solid wood suggests it might even be pre war as by the 1950s bread and butter construction was the usual favoured method. (Is it possible that the model is in fact B&B and carved inside as well?).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSZrDMEQxFc

I have looked at the 1988/89/90 issues of model boats and cannot obviously see anything relevant. There was an article covering an exhibition by Stuart Turner which may be what Derek is thinking of but there are no photos of this installation in it.

Colin

[KBIO]

Good evening.
Maybe the following is of interest !
I was doubting that the boat has 2 Sirius = 2 monsters.

The SUN are good enough.
The STAR a bit weak.
Regards.

[DBS88]

The 2nd Chimney is interesting in that it obviously takes heat out of the boiler so reduces the heat available for the return flue, so at face value not ideal. I think the idea may have been to achieve smoke from both chimneys, but as we know, the exhaust from the boiler alone is not going to do that. I will experiment with the boiler, but my gut reaction is to use the smaller chimney to light the boiler, then cap it while its running to make full use of the heat. To achieve steam from both funnels I aim to direct the exhaust steam out through them both to achieve the steam smoke from both funnels. I will post more pictures of the boiler  another time.
Re the clack valves, in the photo they are upside down, the photo was taken the first time I filled the boiler to check for leaks, they are normally round the other way.
I have not seen this boat run, in fact to date I have not even used the boiler to turn the engines, although I hope it won't be too much longer.
The video of the Sun Engine was both interesting and informative so thank you for the link Colin, it is appreciated.
Re the construction of the hull, I am not up to speed with the terminology for construction of model boats, I am still learning, so have attached a photo taken of the inside looking from just below the front gun towards the bow and torpedo tube. Please feel free to describe what you see in terms of the construction - its definitely not plank on frame!!! and looks to be very sturdy.

[KNO3]

Looks like the hull is carved out of at least 2 pieces of wood which were glued together.

I think your plan to cap off the second boiler exhaust is a good one. Routing the engine exhausts to both ship funnels should give you a nice display of "smoke".

[Colin Bishop]

At 8 feet long you are almost talking about hollowing out a tree! Imagine the effort involved.

There are no obvious bread and butter steps but they could have been carved away. But then there are no obvious signs of any joints either. If the hull is old then one might expect to see some evidence either inside or outside. It's certainly a puzzle.

Colin

[derekwarner]

One point not mentioned with the boiler, is it Char or coal fired?... I don't seem to remember gas firing in portable plants such as this [40 years ago]


No need to calculate the displacement, just put it on a set of bathroom scales......I am guessing about 12kg..including the 1kg of boiler water



Thanks Colin.....I do remember a few Stuart engine discussions with photographs from that period, but the article I remembered was a stand alone on the vessel [I read & re-read the magazine's on the 60 to 80 minute train trip each evening after playing with big guns & missile launchers]


The more I think about this, it is the reversing gearbox to one engine that stands out...[as the means to attain the counter rotating propellers]


Derek

[DBS88]

Re the Boilers fuel source, it is a centre flue return boiler and it came with an LPG torch burner, not sure when model steam plants started using LPG, may be that helps with the dating.


I have just removed one of the deck covers to give it a clean and found another possible clue to the age of the boat - an old rc receiver, its a Futaba FP-R122JE AM 2 channel receiver. Please see photos.


One of the reasons I believe more than one person has worked on this boat is because it came with a modern 2.4Ghz Futaba Receiver - thank you most useful.


Have also attached a photo that better shows the knocks and scuffs to the paintwork that will mean a respray is required. Thanks to Colin I now have some colour options with Turtle Back Grey looking favourite.

[DBS88]

Most important to this restoration is a working boiler, if the boiler is not right (size, capacity) or is faulty then this boat would be going no where. The boiler came supplied with a burner although it was laying loose near the boiler, see photo, its installation was obviously incomplete. So whilst the boiler looked in good condition I removed it from the boat to begin checking it over. The boiler usefully has the working pressure stamped on it at 80psi. The boiler contained some water so drained it off and then began to fill the boiler to find its capacity, a healthy 1.4 litres. With the boiler out of the boat I carried out a more detailed visual inspection, the main fire tube, 2 inches in dia, looked clean and most important was dry. I removed the end cover to check the steam dryer and cross tubes, then reassembled. It looked to me as though this boiler has never been fired, it looked very clean inside. To move on further I needed to pressurise the boiler to check for leaks, I did not have a pump to hand, so with it being full to the brim of water I thought about apply some gentle heat to bring up the pressure very slowly. I then turned my attention to the burner, it has type 40 stamped on it, I have no idea what that means? Anyway I needed to know a few things about the burner, whether worked and where in relation to the fire tube to place it (inside, level with, or outside) so a great chance to do some practical experimentation. With this in mind I set up the boiler on a bench in the garden. First I lit the burner!!!! Wow was not expecting that, as friend said, the flame would not look out of place beneath a NASA Rocket.

[SteamboatPhil]

Not sure what that burner is Dave but by god its very impressive     

[KNO3]

Regarding your burner: usually this kind of torch burner is placed a few mm outside the flue. Your flue seems to have ample space before the water tubes start, which means it is meant to use a burner with a longer flame, such as you have.
Make a suitable ring to fasten the burner in such a way that you can push it inside the flue and outside, to have room for adjustment.

[rhavrane]

Bonjour,
To complete Calin's message, I have learnt that the hotest point of the flame of a torch burner is the the end of its light blue interior triangle. This point should be 4-5 mm before the first transvesal pipe to avoid any possible fusion of it.
I am not able to measure the boiler pipe on the picture but if its length respects this assumption, and if the torch has enough air (as mentioned by Calin), the air at the chemney should smell nothing (proving all gas is burnt) and everything should be all right.