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[DBS88]

Hi, let me start with an apology for not updating you recently. When I started this thread in November 2020, I mentioned that the renovation of this lovely torpedo boat destroyer was a diversion from my main project, which is the building of HMS Wren, with two steam engines. I have not abandoned HMS Daring, she is currently residing on the top shelf in my busy (messy) basement work area, and I will continue and will finish it. In the photo HMS Wren is the bare hull sitting below HMS Daring, then to the right is my experimental workhorse the Lady Sarah an open steam launch with engine driven pump taking water from the lake, below that another fascinating steam boat and in the white box is the boat that started all this, a twin engined steam tug with full automatic boiler controls.
So in the background I have been working on developing HMS Wren, or things that I need to build HMS Wren. I have been learning about and experimenting with automatic boiler controls. I have been experimenting with different boilers. The engines I wish to use need two servos each (one to select forward or reverse and the other to control the throttle) so I have been looking into mixing servos so that 5 (5th servo is the rudder) servos are controlled on one tx joy stick. I have been looking at pumps to decide whether or not to use an engine driven pump or an electric pump and whether to use an onboard water tank or take water form the lake. All of these I am learning about so I can make final decisions for the build of Wren.
HMS Daring is close to being finished, I have learned a lot from the gas installation and it has an engine driven pump. The tasks left now are to reconnect the pumped water supply to the boiler, for this I am going to install a bypass valve, since original build does not have one. Then the boiler will need another safety test and certificate, then it should all be good to go. Thank you for your continued support with this project.

[ballastanksian]

We each have our own way of seeing and conducting our hobby and so if you take a break then take a break. A hobby is not a job. Try not to get bogged down by deadlines as that makes your hobby like a job. Budgets are different, as we need to eat as well as make models!


No one here would gripe at you if you were taking a break from a project, so apart from being courteous, you need not feel bad abut having slipped off the radar for a while. Your other models look great, and you are enlightening us with ideas, which is a silver lining.

[KBIO]

Hello !
I would say that ; the longer we are waiting, the better it is !
I love this workshop with several projects going on depending of the mood !
The sun is coming back soon and we all are on starting blocks !
Have a nice day !

[Geoff]

We all quite understand the distraction with other projects but glad to here its still alive and well and we will see more in due course.


Cheers


Geoff

[DBS88]

Wow, can't believe how fast the time has gone by. Its been 15 months since my last update on HMS Daring and in all that time she has sat on the same shelf patiently waiting. I am determined to finish off some projects so that my work space is clear. The club I belong to exhibited their boats at the Kempton Steam Museum recently, so knowing there would be a specially built pond there I took HMS Daring along to finalise the ballasting. I know she is sitting low in the water, this is because with less ballast the stability was fragile. The weight of the beautiful guns could not be in a worse place, so to compensate extra lead low down in the hull has been added


With the ballasting sorted the next step is to get the boiler steam tested and hopefully out on the lake for her maiden voyage, which will be a momentous day, since this model was started more than 30 years ago.

[DBS88]

I have now taken HMS Daring to our Clubs boiler testing day and am pleased to say that the boiler passed and as part of the steam test that the safety valves operated as they were designed to, operating at just below 80psi ensuring the boiler didn't get above 80psi.


Next step is to put the radio gear back into HMS Daring, to check it all works, check all the oil and water levels and get her ready for that first run on the lake. It needs to be soon since the weed is growing fast, and I don't wish to get caught out, so will arrange a day and time asap with fellow club members.


Here is a photo of HMS Daring on the bench raising steam as part of her steam test.

[Geoff]

Lovely to see the progress and we all look forward to the next instalment!


Cheers


Geoff

[ballastanksian]

Amen! She looks a treat! I do like the guns (I wonder if I wrote that some time before?) They're still good 

[DBS88]

I have now put the radio gear back into HMS Daring and have set up the rudder using the end points on the transmitter to give the maximum angle possible. I fear trying to turn this model round is going to take a lot of space, and lets not forget, there is no reverse! The next priority was to adjust and make sure the radio controlled gas cut off valve was working as it should via channel 5 a two way switch on the transmitter. That way if there is a problem I can remotely cut the gas supply.
Undertaking the boiler and steam test also confirmed that the small gas tank had enough gas to heat the boiler and do a run, also with the way the tank was placed next to the burner, the tank never gets cold, its just feels warm so the gas pressure dropping off is not an issue.
I also changed the way the oil separator was plumbed in, by using white silicone with a 6mm internal diameter, this has slowed the speed of the steam and stopped it spaying very hot water out of the exhaust and over the decks! Whilst I had the white silicone to hand I also used it to insulate the steam pipes from the boiler to the engines and from the engines to the oil separator - it looks nicer than the red silicone that I had previously used.
I have filled the boiler, topped up the engine oils in the Stuart Sun Engines wet sumps, filled the steam oil reservoirs and used all the drip feed to oil the prop shafts, gear box, mechanical oiler, water pump) and for the first time, I also screwed down all the various deck hatches, so HMS Daring is now ready for her maiden voyage.

[derekwarner]

Yes Dave, this new white silicone sheathing is a huge improvement & cleaning of the inevitable oil on dust surfaces of the steam tubes will be a so easy 


Is the FWD chimney on the model just a dummy?, with all exhausts via the AFT chimney?


Have you resolved the splitting of the rubber diaphragm on the 6 bolt side gas regulator from May 21?


Derek 

[DBS88]

The forward chimney is the main flue from the boiler. The boiler is a return flue boiler and unusually has a second smaller chimney which is the one with the brass end cap and silicone pipes, this I use to ignite the burner as you would for a normal center flue boiler. The way its set up at the moment, steam will only be visible from the second chimney.


Re the attenuator, I have learned a lot from installing it, setting it up, repairing it, running with it etc. That said its not working at the moment, the gas is in free flow and to be honest, for this model, its probably not needed so is likely to be removed. If gas control is needed, a far better and more reliable system is the Dénes Gas Control Unit. Here is a link to a video of me trying it out on my Proteus set up, its very impressive in the way its able to maintain the boiler pressure and best of all no issues with diaphragms, springs etc. https://youtu.be/_R2GHkaP1vM


Help has been arranged (standby rescue boat and assistance at the lakeside) for the maiden voyage so will update you soon!

[DBS88]

Thursday morning, the day before Fridays planned maiden voyage, I received bad news from the lake, the sailors with their deep keeled yachts had got stuck in the weed and the electric rescue tug they used had not faired much better! The weather forecast for Friday is for a chilly morning with blustery winds, 15 to 25mph, so far from ideal.


My friend and fellow steamer visited the lake late in the afternoon and suggested that a clear route exists, he also confirmed he was happy to attend in the morning and undertake some weed clearance. So the car is loaded with everything I might need and I have slid HMS Daring into the car with her bow stretching out between the driver and passenger seats.


I decided to make a final decision in the morning at the lakeside, whether to sail or not. For the rest of the evening, I will be nervous and worried, the weed and wind are playing on my mind, and like any other maiden voyage a healthy degree of uncertainty is adding to the tension.

[rhavrane]

Hello Dave,
Crossed fingers ! On our pond, we have the same concerns and, with 1.50 m deep and high boots, we manage, admittedly with difficulty, to get out of it in the event of a blockage.
Your beautiful boat deserves good conditions and even after more than 16 years of practice and a large fleet, I am also very nervous for my maiden voyages.

[DBS88]

As forecast, the morning weather is cold and I am concerned about the wind and HMS Darings stability as well as getting caught by one of those blustery squalls that appear out of nowhere. There are three large matts of weed visible and I know weed won’t be to far below the surface in other areas. My friend has cleared a route straight out in front of the jetty and history suggests that there is quite a large area in the middle of the lake that should be ok, but thats where HMS Daring will be at most risk from the wind. We debate using a tether and one of us using waders and keeping near the bank, but thats putting someone at risk, then there’s the weed and uncertainty about the turning circle. Long story short, it would be a long time before the weed dies down, so it was now or wait till the autumn?


Decision made, I filled the boiler with hot water from a flask and fired the boiler and checked that the rc gas cut off valve was working, very important with the risk of getting tangled in the weed, then relit the boiler. Waiting for the boiler to heat up and reach pressure gave me time to reflect on all the help and advice that I had received, without the support of members of this forum HMS Daring may never have been finished and brought to life. I have learned so much from you and working on her and have enjoyed making something work that had never worked before. This maiden voyage was very important for me but more so for HMS Daring who had waited more than thirty years for this moment.


The boiler pressure took what seemed like ages to begin to rise, the cold was not helping. With the gauge at 30 psi the steam valve was opened and the engines gently warmed, the oil separator was then emptied and the steam valve closed again so the boiler could get up to its working pressure of 80psi. The boilers steam valve was opened, the rc throttle was opened a little and the engines began to turn, carefully HMS Daring was carried to the lakeside and lowered gently on the water, the props made the water gurgle as they bit the surface. Now it was important to keep the revs up, since it was by no means certain that the engines would restart if they stopped and there is no reverse. My success criteria for the maiden voyage was for her safe return without mishap, that the ballasting was ok, that the rudder worked as it should and that we learned from the experience.


HMS Daring was swung through 90 degrees so her bow pointed out through the narrow weed free channel to the open water beyond. Whilst we held her back, the rudder operation was checked again as was the throttle, she was ready to go, but was I ready to let go? Is anyone ever ready to let go on that first voyage? Then in an instant she was off, heading for open water, the plan was for her to go out, do a large circle and come back the same way as she went. The steering and turning ability, bearing in mind this model is 8 feet in length and is not using tank steering, was a pleasant surprise. I feared how much she may roll in a turn, but again this was unfounded. The wind blew but again was not too much of an issue; it as not worth chancing things too much, so I stuck to the plan and turned her back towards the shore. To be honest, HMS Daring looked quite menacing as she steamed back. The speed was reduced since there is no reverse and no way of stopping her. Thankfully another club member was there and he filmed the return, so here for your enjoyment is a link to that video, you have been very patient waiting for this moment. Once again thank you for your support.
https://youtube.com/shorts/CpTrw6otAi0?feature=share

[KBIO]

CHAMPAGNE !!
What about the boiler pressure when you slow down for a while ??
Cheers !

[rhavrane]

Bonjour David,
Un seul mot "BRAVO", ce voyage inaugural est une belle réussite 

[raflaunches]

Bravo Zulu to you. Great to see her on the water after your restoration. Bet you are really proud of her

[derekwarner]

Yes Bravo..........she cuts across the wind with ease & I understand scale  ...but you could consider an oversiized rudder to help attain tighter turning, but remembering she is an 8' long hull


Derek

[Geoff]

Congratulations and very well done. Really nice to see her in her proper element!


Cheers


Geoff

[DBS88]

Thank you all, I will admit that I had to look up what Bravo Zulu meant, every day is a school day, your support and well wishing is appreciated. Well what a difference a few days make, here is the lake one week after HMS Darings maiden voyage! No chance of being back on the water until the weed cutting and clearing has taken place. 
I like to be straight with you and having reflected on the maiden voyage, whilst it was a success, in that we have a boat that looks and behaves properly, the ballast and stability were fine, the electrics, radio control, engines and boiler all worked, there is definitely room for improvement in terms of performance. Another positive is that the down time due to the weed will give me time to implement a few changes. So this is not the end of our voyage together, there is more to be done.
The issue is one that some of you, along with myself have suspected. In my case I probably didn’t want to believe it, I just wanted to get HMS Daring on the water and prove that she worked - which we have now done, so now its time to face the issue which is, we are not making enough steam fast enough. Its an age old problem faced by many steam boat builders. The boiler is a well made return flue boiler and is efficient in that very little heat leaves via the chimney, so the heat from the burner is going into the water. What needs to happen now is that I need to get a lot more heat, a lot faster into the boiler.
Initial research into getting more heat via the current burner reveals that this well made custom burner is performing at its best, so the gain in performance that I would like cannot come from this burner. That means I am now going to experiment with different burners and have been advised that this type of boiler works best with a blow torch burner. Now some of you may remember that this boat came with a brand new unused burner, that was not suitable, and to be honest, quite frightening!
My experiments are going to be with different types of blow torch burner with different gas jet sizes to get the best flame for this boiler. Since we are likely to be using a lot more gas, to combat the issues of gas pressure drop and tank freezing I will also have a look at using gas from the tank in liquid form and turning the liquid into gas using the heat of the burner. If you have experience of using gas blow torches in your model boats I would love to know the type of burner and gas nozzle size that you are using.
Here are photos of the lake yesterday and the original blow torch burner.

[DBS88]

The blow torch burner or heat output being sought,  is to generate enough steam to run the pair of twin cylinder single acting Sun engines at a higher speed for longer that they currently do. The pair of Sun engines in this model are the equivalent of a Stuart D10. So the steam needed is for four cylinders, each of 3/4 inch bore and 3/4 inch stroke, times the number of RPM - Your burner or blow lamp experiences gained from powering a Stuart D10 or similar will be very relevant and help point me in the right direction - thank you

[KBIO]

Hello !
The SUN engine was rather designed to run on Flash steam (or Semi Flash Steam) for an optimal performance.
It is a single effect engine which requires a lot of steam to achieve high RPM.
Whatever the burner , the engine will take what the boiler gives and the boiler will give what its heating surface can produce. Your Stuart boilers are excellent.
Having a bigger burner will not help unless the ones you have are undersized.
A SUN engine can take 60/80 psi . So I would work out the propeller pitch to reduce the RPM for a maximum  torque and a steady speed.
And remember ; the loveliest woman in the world can only give what she has ... !


https://youtu.be/kO-MtxlxLbQ

https://youtu.be/zaq5XqA3gaQ


On the video , the gas supply pressure is 0,4 b (6 psi) . But can be 1 b (14,7 psi)  Must be liquid supply with a loop around both  burners tips for gasifying for a steady supply. The hotest is the gas , the better it is .

[Geoff]

I suspect with the cylinder piston volume you have, maybe an easier way to increase the speed would be to change the props for larger coarser ones. Not only should this increase the speed as they are creating more thrust but may also increase the duration by reducing steam consumption. I can't remember if the original props are three blade, if so go to four blade for the same reason.


On my Canopus I use 50mm four bladed props and once I made the change from much smaller three bladed the speed literally doubled as did the duration.


Its all a question of trial and error.


Good luck, she is beautiful!!


Cheers


Geoff

[DBS88]

KBIO thank you for the additional information and very informative videos, I am looking forward to experimenting further with the blow torch burner, different gas jet sizes and also with liquid phase gas supply, will update you on progress but it may not be for a couple of weeks now.


Geoff, you are right about prop sizing and about how much difference increasing the prop size makes, its certainly the easiest and most cost effective way of increasing the performance. I have considered changing the props, increasing their size and number of blades, but, decided the current props were probably OK. The model is fitted with two 3 1/2 inch dia 3 bladed props, I could go to 4 inches and four blades, but they would then be almost touching each other which I assume, being so close to each other would not help their efficiency.


Here are a couple of photos of the rear end of HMS Daring showing the rudder and the props, I love the way the engineer who built this boat has carved out such a magnificent hull shape to accommodate the props, its a work of art, and in my mind probably the most beautiful part of this model, its a shame that most people miss seeing the work that went into this area of the model.

[JimG]

As an alternative would it be possible to bend some more pitch in the props. This would give more bite without needing the extra blade or diameter.
Jim