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Author Topic: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job  (Read 3922 times)

ballastanksian

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2020, 09:26:45 pm »

Are the barrels bored? If so, I reckon they could be fired back in the day, as the efforts on the seating of the breech blocks is impressive for display models.

Lovely work on an ever more gorgeous model. She will look amazing on the water.
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Geoff

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #76 on: December 07, 2020, 12:48:34 pm »

Very nicely done with the guns and I think you have done the restoration absolutely perfectly - well done


Cheers


Geoff
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DBS88

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2021, 06:30:57 pm »

Have today managed to get back into the basement after clearing up a few odd jobs and have know got the burner and boiler back on the bench. So have this evening been experimenting with the gas jet sizes and positioning in the holder to achieve the best flame before I put them into the boiler. The first three photos are the No 5 gas jet, the next three are the No 8 jet and the last three the No10 jet. The outcome was that the No5 & 8 jets work well, the No 10 can't get enough primary air through the holes so burns with a yellow orange tinge. This is as Nigel of Pendle Steam said it would be, so no real surprise. The point was to find the best positions for the jets before putting them in the boiler, since I know they will behave differently there, so at least I now have a starting position from which to experiment. As you will see the size of the air hole increases with jet size, which is as you would expect, more gas flow from a larger jet needs more air to burn it cleanly.
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KNO3

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2021, 07:55:59 pm »

One trick I learned from a forum was to put the burner is a glass tube of a size close to the boiler flue. then light it and observe the flame. That way you can see if it burns well or not and adjust the jet etc accordingly.
Because I didn't have a suitably large glass tube, I used a straight piece of copper tube and looked inside from the other end with the burner alight - from an appropriate distance, of course.
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DBS88

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #79 on: January 04, 2021, 09:49:13 am »

Thank you, I like the old school ways of doing things and appreciate the suggestion of using a glass or copper tube, I will remember that, particularly for another boiler which has in the past proved a challenge to get right. Fortunately for this boiler, due to the design of the burner, it is possible to see through slots in the side of the burner, the flame while adjusting the gas jet in or out to achieve the brightest blue flame possible. From the photos, using gas jet No 5, you will notice with the burner in the boiler to achieve the best colour flame, the gas jet is slightly further out then when it was on the bench.
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DBS88

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #80 on: January 10, 2021, 03:26:55 pm »

Steam/engineering can be frustrating. I seem to have suffered with a number of blocked gas jets that have hampered progress. As a result the boiler was taking forever to heat up. Then the union cock valves that isolate the sight glass started to leak, again delaying the boiler getting up to pressure. So lapped in the valves, refitted them and started again.  One is cure, the second, the lower one is much improved and now the boiler gets up to temp and pressure fine, the safety valves operate and there is plenty of steam. So it seemed a shame not to use some of the steam. Some of you will have seen that I have renovated a Stuart MTM 1B 180 steam engine, its over a hundred years old. Well I have been waiting a long time to get the chance to run it for the first time on steam so here is a video of the boiler and the MTM 1B 180 all working. All in all a great day. https://youtu.be/D74NHK5-z9s Thank you to everyone that has helped me on the way to making this possible - I hope you enjoy watching as much as I did playing.
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Mark T

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #81 on: January 10, 2021, 04:54:15 pm »

David that is just brilliant  :-)) :-)) :-))


What a great engine it certainly looks the part and goes great too!   I too occasionally get blocked jets but George suggested to me just to blow compressed air backwards through the jet.  This works for me every time.


I love steam as there is always something to do  ;)

Stoxsie

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #82 on: January 10, 2021, 10:15:02 pm »

Iím a true novice but could the second funnel be a means to access air for the boiler?
The more I look at this model the more interesting it becomes, the bridge deck gun bulwarks are probably a little low when compared to the deck railings forward - also on the real ships these were invariably canvas covered and not solid. From a modelling perspective, and from experience, I think you will suffer from oxygen starvation as I can't really see how air will reach the boiler. Again I think the model is in an unfinished state and the real purpose of the construction, and size, was to see if it could be made steam powered hence the large boiler for the engines.


However for whatever reason the project was not finished, maybe the original builder became unwell. I would suggest you try to work out a scale from the size of the guns and how tall a crew member would need to be as this can guide you as to the rest of the fittings.


A really fascinating find!!


Cheers


Geoff
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DBS88

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2021, 10:10:15 am »

Hi I am not sure about why the second funnel has been added to the boiler. Now that the boiler is back on the bench the plan is to run a few experiments with it. My hunch  before I start is that the boiler should be make better use of the heat from the burner by having the small funnel capped. The thought is to use the small funnel for lighting the burner, then put on the cap.


I filled the boiler with water to a reasonable level and have put it on the scales 9.532Kg. Now as you can imagine it takes a while to heat this boiler and get to pressure. The idea is to then time how long it takes to heat the boiler and achieve a pressure of 50psi. Once the boiler is cold again (a long time), refill it to the same weight and heat it again, this time making a change. The variables I wish to understand are whether it heats quicker with one funnel open or both? Also whether a No5 gas jet or a No8 gas jet heats the boiler quicker also with one or both funnels.


What I have found from running the boiler so far is that I need to manage the gas temperature as well since it burns for so long, the burner pressure drops, I can definitely hear a difference, so to keep the pressure steady have started to put the gas tank in a water bath - this does maintain the flame. My first task is to stop the minor leak from from the bottom union cock valve that isolates the sight glass, then with no leaks I can start the experiments properly.
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Geoff

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2021, 12:10:37 pm »

On y model of Velox I use computer fans to force air into the boiler room which seems to work well under all conditions. They are light and use virtually no power and can shift a lot of air dependent on size. The early TBD's had very large cowl vents for this purpose and blowers to draw air in to the boiler rooms and this element seems to be missing from the model, hence my belief its in an unfinished state.




Obviously first get everything running with the deck off and then see what happens when you put the deck on. Note with a steam powered battleship it all worked well in the bath but the flame kept going out on the lake despite large cowl ventilators. Forward motion on the lake stopped a bubble of hot oxygen starved air over the boiler getting out until eventually it put the flame out. Air flow-through is the key for proper working. Not all cowl ventilators necessarily point forwards - some point aft to create a suction and draw air through.


Lovely to see your progress and one of the more fascinating threads I have seen,


Cheers


Geoff
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steamboatmodel

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2021, 04:42:09 pm »

Are you going to measure the gas consumption under different conditions too?
Gerald.
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DBS88

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #86 on: January 11, 2021, 08:16:58 pm »

Thank you for the tip about using a computer fan to draw air in I will keep that in mind. As far as measuring gas consumption I have not planned to do so, I not overly worried about how much gas is used, just that it burns properly and that the boiler heats as quickly as it is able to.


Well the experiments with the No8 gas jet were very short lived - with the burner in the boiler the combustion was incomplete (dangerous) the carbon monoxide and unburnt gas can be seen burning above the funnel. Note closer to the funnel is does not burn because the mixture is too rich, its not until  more air is defused into the mixture a few inches above the funnel that it becomes flammable again and can be ignited. please accept my apologies for the poor photos it was difficult to take them in the low light needed to show the problem.


For completeness I have also tried to ignite the exhaust with the No5 gas jet, the fumes did not ignite and did not smell off, so thats a much better result, not healthy, but much better than with a No8. When running the boiler in the basement I do so with he door open to fresh air.
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KNO3

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #87 on: January 12, 2021, 08:52:22 pm »

That's a useful experiment. What jet size have you chosen in the end?
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Geoff

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #88 on: January 14, 2021, 11:37:48 am »

I've just had an off the wall thought about the second funnel. Given the age of the steam plant I wonder if it was intended to use paraffin blow lamp as the heat source as I suspect this pre-dates the universal use of gas? Such being the case this may be a little smokey and hence the second funnel to get smoke out of both funnels.


Looking forward to the next installment.


Cheers


Geoff
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DBS88

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #89 on: January 14, 2021, 05:11:24 pm »

Have started to fire the boiler up and time how long to get to 50 psi and 70 psi. I have settled on using the No5 gas jet. The first run was yesterday with both chimneys open. I am happier now with the position of the gas jet in the burner tube and with the flame its producing. The biggest variable seems to be the gas pressure which I am trying to minimise by placing the gas tank in a bowl of luke warm water.
Todays run was with the small chimney closed off, it was inconclusive, at the start the gas spluttered a couple of times and then ran ok but did not sound as strong as yesterday. There was no appreciable time difference it was about the same. I am going to discount this test and wait till tomorrow when its all cooled down again. I will double check to make sure the gas jet is clear and run it again.
Re the second chimney and a paraffin heat source - it may well have been. If capping the second chimney is not going to make a marked improvement in heating times my thoughts are drifting towards using some of the heat or flue gases from the second chimney with some of the engines exhaust steam to ensure a good steam plume - in the same way as the main chimney is set up with the engines exhaust steam. That way when its on the water there will be two decent plumes of steam, one from each funnel.
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KNO3

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2021, 08:18:50 am »

In my experience, mixing steam with exhaust gas makes the steam plume LESS visible. I got the most visible steam plume when letting the steam exhaust through a pipe fixed to the outside of the chimney.
Like here, exhaust pipe in front of the chimney:
https://youtu.be/wdoQ8Haun4k
And pipe inside the chimney:
https://youtu.be/_W9EAvcVjjg
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rhavrane

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2021, 08:03:59 pm »

Bonjour,
To have a nice plume from the chemney, a friend offered me this accessory (installed since on several other boats):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heBFpO57Na4
The result  :-))
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRfg9KpRaPU
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DBS88

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #92 on: January 15, 2021, 08:58:49 pm »

Re the steam plume thank you, whilst I wish the plume to look realistic, I would not want to achieve it at the expense of boiler performance, so need to know if there is a benefit or not to running the engine steam exhaust into the boiler chimney?


Here is a link to my first steam tug running in-between lockdowns its engine exhaust does feed into the chimney and its the sort of plume that I would like to achieve. I can see how effective the device Raphael is using is at dispersing the steam plume so that it appears more natural. https://youtu.be/UwBvcPzb3W4


I have the just run the TBD boiler again tonight with the small chimney closed and it did get to temperature and pressure quicker. With both chimneys open it took 17 mins to 50psi and 20 to 70psi, with the small chimney capped the times were 16 mins to 50 psi and 18 to 70 psi, so a marked improvement. There is still a minor leak on the bottom union cock so when thats stopped the times should be even quicker. Now bear in mind this is a big boiler at over 9kgs so it also takes forever to cool down again, I checked it after 6 hours and it was still noticeably warm to the touch!!
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KNO3

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2021, 10:31:06 am »

In my opinion, with a gas burner, running the exhaust through the chimney brings no benefit to boiler performance.

As to the steam plume, there are many variables that can influence the looks. Temperature of the ambient air, of the exhaust gas etc. A diffuser,  as shown by Raphael, slows the steam down and makes it look more like smoke (notice that in my video there is no diffuser and the steam exhausts with speed, in a thinner plume).
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Geoff

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #94 on: January 18, 2021, 12:56:32 pm »

I think running the steam through the chimney increases the gas flow through by the venturi effect. Certainly Cheddar Models built their units that way. Interestingly I found the length of the tube inside the funnel was quite critical as if too short when you stopped the engine it caused a shock wave which put the burner out!


Tube had to be pretty near the top of the funnel but never had any issues since. To be fair I had reduced the diameter of the funnel to fit so this may have been the cause.


Interesting to see how you are proceeding.


Cheers


Geoff
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carlfmiller

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer - Fastest Boat in the world - a restoration job
« Reply #95 on: January 18, 2021, 06:30:27 pm »

Wow this certainly is a monster thread for a monster boat and steam galore. The destroyer model detail is amazing and brought to life by such marvelous photographs. Thanks for sharing all the info about your boat and steam engines.


 I am late seeing this thread but I have to compliment  all you guys for such a lively and informative discussion. There is such a lot to learn from these 4 pages!

Maybe I read too fast and missed it-- have you said what the displacement of the model is?



Keep it up!  Sure hope to see her go.


-Carl
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