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Author Topic: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)  (Read 9497 times)

DBS88

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Have taken three steps forward recently with this project and now a couple backwards. The third time I ran the engines I connected the engine driven water pump and the hand pump to fill the boiler. All appeared well, then I found a puddle of water below the tank, I know I had spilled some water, but despite my best efforts to dry it water came back, so being paranoid I took out the on board water tank to check it over. Also the engine driven pump worked, but not as well as I thought it should, so have stripped it down replaced the balls and reassembled it. Another job was the oiler to one of the propshafts was blocked, so took the engines out, disassembled the gearing and removed the prop shaft, gave it all a good blow through, oiled and reassembled it, being careful to make sure the timing for the engines is at 90 deg so they are self starting and run smoothly. Good news the tank was not leaking, I had just spilled more water than I thought I had . Anyway they were all jobs that needed doing so we are closer now to a run in the test tank, just a couple more runs on the bench first to learn as much as I can about the oiler, steam valve and gas settings.
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KNO3

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What type of new balls did you install in the pump?
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DBS88

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The balls in the pump were the nitrile balls, both the same size. The lower ball was sticking to some grease on the end of the pumps ram, it was therefore pulled sideways rather than dropping on to its seat. I changed the balls for steel balls because thatís what I have in my spares box, I also put in a larger, heavier ball in the bottom. I will hopefully run it tomorrow, to see if it now works?
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KNO3

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Steel balls work all right with proper seating, but rubber (nitrile, viton etc) are sealing even better. Can't you re-use the nitrile balls?
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DBS88

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Each time I run the boiler I try to achieve some progress so today I have run the boiler and engines again, this time with a slightly larger gas jet, a No6 which is 0.225mm, the No5 jet was 0.2mm, it was quicker to get the boiler up to temperature and it burned cleanly. When previously I tried the No8 0.25mm jet it did not burn cleanly, so No6 is better. I also tested the engine driven water pump and that works a lot better now. What today has shown is the need to fit a water bypass valve from the engine driven pump - there is not one at the moment so no way to set the amount of water entering the boiler. The onboard tank holds 1/2 a litre of water so will get the water to recirculate back to the tank with enough going to the boiler to maintain a steady level - I guess this will take a bit of trial and error to get the balance right.  Also the oil separator is far to small so need to sort that out now as well.


I won a bid on Ebay for a Victorian Magic lantern slide of HMS Daring, not quite sure what I will do with it, but it is a nice thing, here is a photo of the slide, as you can see HMS Daring looked quite impressive on the water.
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SteamboatPhil

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It may be worth re seating the ball, easy to do drop the ball on the seat and tap it. I have found that nitrite balls can become out of shape after a while and therefore will not seat properly.
Keep up the good work
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KNO3

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If you do the re-seating, ideally you should use new balls as valves, as the ones used for re-seating can get distorted.
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DBS88

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Thank you all for the advice re the balls in the pump. I did clean the valve body out and indeed did give the steel balls a gentle - ish knock to seat them. Have run the boiler a couple more times since, the pump is working so much better now. Have also run the boiler at a higher pressure than previously, now 60 psi for the last couple of runs, it certainly seems to work better with he No6 jet and at the higher pressure.


Any way its time to move on to some other jobs. I may have made a novice mistake, if I have, feel free to laugh. To improve my knowledge of radio control I bought a book and it suggested that the servo for the rudder needed to be strong because the load on the rudder can be quite high and that the servo could stall and or draw lots of current and after all a boat with no steering is not a lot of fun. So being new to radio control and with this boat being larger than average I thought I would upgrade the servo. Now I wanted to buy a servo to install a remote on/off for the gas supply, so figured I would buy a new heavy duty servo for the rudder and re purpose the old one from the rudder to the gas valve. The old servo is  a Futaba FP s148 which I have heard is a reliable servo. The new servo is a Ripmax Quartz, with metal gears and body, it has 17 - 20kg torque so significantly more powerful.


The push rods on the old set up had been bent, so upgraded to 3mm push rods and an aluminium servo horn. I dismantled rudder assembly. The rod holding the rudder is 5/16 inch dia, and the rudder solid metal, it weighs the best part of a kilo, a very solid item that's not going to get bent that's for sure. I greased it all and reassembled, checked it works and here's the results.
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KNO3

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That rudder is substantial indeed. Can't hurt to have a strong servo for it.

In my experience, reversing mechanisms on engines and steam valves can require some force (depending on the construction, they can get harder to move when they are in steam), so they might need a strong servo. I think you'll be able to tell during steam tests if the servos you are using are up to the job.
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DBS88

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I have been experimenting with a different burner set up, one that takes liquid gas from the tank, then vaporises the liquid in the pipe before the burner, will take some photos next time I have it set up on the bench. In the mean time I am trying to finish off a few jobs. One that I have been keen to install is a remotely controlled on/off for the gas supply so in the event of a problem, for example a fouled prop, the gas supply can be turned off from the bankside, also it saves taking off the covers to turn the gas off before lifting the boat out of the water. Next was to install a gas attenuator to turn down the flame at a pre determined pressure, in this case it will be 75psi, just before the safety valves lift at 80 psi. I have tried to install the gas valve, the servo and the attenuator all on one compact bracket.


I thought I had plenty of space, which I have, but it was still a fiddle getting the nuts all done up. I also silver soldered the joints, now this was only my second attempt with silver solder so quite pleased. On the small pipe, the two nuts are obviously captive, I inadvertantly overheated one of the nuts, softening it, as a consequence it went out of shape, which was a pain. I got it back into shape luckily with a bit of pressure and using a 1/4 40 tap to get it round again. Setting up the servo to was also a fiddle, but again I put this down to my lack of experience, I certainly learnt a lot. The highlight was using the mini pipe benders, shaping and fitting the pipes whilst trying to make the installation look neat. Have tested the servo operation, the gas goes on and off as it should so next is to fire up the boiler and get the attenuator set up - hopefully later today. The first photo show the bracket holding the gas valve, servo and attenuator, the second shows the complete set up with the gas valve closed and the third with the gas valve open.
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SteamboatPhil

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Lovely bit of work Dave
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rhavrane

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Bonjour Dave,
I fully agree with you, all the boats should have a gas attenuator (often improperly called gas regulator) and a RC safety gas valve, even when this one has a problem ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNTjVqbhezs
1 failure for more than 50 steam plants, I would say it is a reasonable ratio  ;)
Besides this, I always operate at about 30 PSI, it is quite enough to my opinion and saves steam / autonomy :-))
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RaphaŽl
RaphaŽlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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DBS88

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Apologies for the lack of progress and updates, life and other distractions have got in the way. One of the distractions was another boat new to my fleet that shares something in common with HMS Daring, it too was the fastest boat in the world, so I have had some fun learning how to set that up and run it, it was an exhilarating experience. Anyway back to HMS Daring, previously I had set up the gas attenuator, together with a rc controlled gas shut off valve.
Well tonight I have used it for the first time but have had no luck with it, and I am a bit baffled.
With the pressure regulating knurled nut all the way to the right, where there is no weight on the spring the gas was not turned down, boiler reached 70 psi. (see photo from previous update above)
With the pressure regulating knurled nut 2/3 the way to the left, plenty of weight on the spring, the gas was not turned down boiler reached 70 psi. (see the photo for this update)
I thought maybe the screw for adjusting the pilot flame was the issue so have turned it in as far as it would go then back a 1/4 turn, still the pressure goes all the way to 70 psi without turning the flame down.
The attenuator is the P5 boiler pressure regulator from Jin in China, have connected it as per the instructions, any advice on setting it up will be most welcome thank you.

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KNO3

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Not sure what could be wrong, but have you looked inside, at the diaphragms, if they are in good shape and sealing well? Sometimes they can get distorted.
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rhavrane

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Bonjour Dave,
Please watch my videos, even in French, I hope they will help you, I have several of them from Microcosm or other manifacturers :
Control the diaphragms ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU37YAuOkKM
Set Simple diaphragm :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iE1wBIhKUc
Set Double diaphragý : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvwAnXhN4WE
To summarize my procedure, if the membranes are in good condition, there are two parameters to manage, the cut-off pressure and the power of the idle flame, I recommend adjusting them one after the other. In any case, the large spring for adjusting the cut-off pressure must "float", it must always be at a minimum in tension. I can manage to operate my Microcosm regulators at around 1.5 bar : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzb2Y0TZU1U
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RaphaŽl
RaphaŽlopoulos Steam Lines UnLimited
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KNO3

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While we are at the gas system,  have you considered adding a gas filter? In the past I have made my own, simply by inserting some cotton wool into the pipe close to the gas tank, but I have seen Regner sells a very looking gas and water filter that uses replaceable cigarette filters inside:

https://www.regner-dampftechnik.com/product-page/wgl-filter-m5x0-5

https://www.gardenrailways.co.uk/regner-20222-wgl-filter.html
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ballastanksian

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Cigarette filters! That's a clever idea.
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KBIO

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Hello Dave !
Nice set up !  :-))
If I can tell something concerning the adjustment of the screw controlling the pilot valve, I think that opening by 1/4 turn is far too much.
I would say that 1/8th to 1/16th is enough.
Here is a poor video that I did for an English friend who wanted to calibrate his Anton V71.
https://youtu.be/RdZVReZpGgw

Having troubleshooted some friends one, I would have a lot to say about this Chinese stuff! :D But it does the job, though !
The spring of those attenuators are ranged up to 3 kg on Anton's one. The one on the Microcosm are mostly set to 2 kg. At least those I had to trouble shoot. Which matches roughly to an average  working differential pressure of 2 b.
You have a boiler pressure of 70 psi. Depending of the surface of the membrane you may need more gas pressure. Probably 40 psi.
70 psi - 40 psi = 30 psi = within the range of the spring.
But as I say, it depends of the membrane surface. It still different with a double one !
I hope it helps. ;)
Beer time !! %)
Regards.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 03:10:09 am by Martin [Admin] »
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DBS88

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Thank you for the advice and helpful videos, they are appreciated. Before I removed the  boiler pressure regulating valve from the boat I thought I would check to if there was any pressure from the boiler reaching the valve, so disconnected the nut and pumped water into the boiler, the result was water coming out of the pipe, so the pipe is definitely not blocked and there's a healthy plug of water in the pipe preventing hot steam from making direct contact with the diaphragm. So being out of options I removed the valve assembly. I then disassembled the regulator valve to see if there was anything wrong with the diaphragms and found a small tear to one side on the boiler pressure diaphragm. I then disassembled the rest to check the gas diaphragm, this looked to be ok. Now a spare set of diaphragms is supplied with these valves so I swapped them both over, reassembled the valve and refitted into the boat, hopeful that the issue would now be resolved. I have just tested it and it does not seem to matter where the knurled nut that controls the pressure is, if its complete loose or fairly tight, it made no difference. Adjusting the pilot screw makes a difference, the flame can be turned down or up with that, but its not being altered by the boiler pressure, the boiler still keeps increasing pressure, dependent on how far open the pilot is? So for some reason the boiler pressure is not closing the gas off. At least I can still run the boat without removing the valve. Here are the photos of the valve, your thoughts are welcome.
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DBS88

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I have just had a go at making an oil separator tank for HMS Daring, its a job I have been putting off for a while. I had a box of scrap bits like we  all do, in it was a section of 42 mm pipe, a 42 mm straight coupling, some 8mm pipe and some 3mm pipe. Now its not the tidiest bit of soldering in the world, but it will do as the prototype to see if it works ok. Since the boat has two engine and two chimneys I decided to run the exhaust from each engine into the tank and then take two exhausts out of the tank, to run one to each chimney so that steam comes out of both funnels. Having listened to earlier advice, the exhaust will be run external to the boiler flues but internal to the models funnels to hopefully achieve realistic steam plumes, so that accounts for the 4 x 8mm pipes sticking out of the tank. The next thing I did was to insert a coil of 6 turns of 3mm copper pipe into the tank, this is two of the smaller 3mm pipes, the idea is to pump the boiler feed water through the coil and for the heat in the oil separator to heat the water so that hot water enters the boiler rather than cold. This should help the boiler maintain pressure and use less gas. The last 3 mm pipe is the pipe for emptying the oil separator tank. The square patch is where I covered a hole after deciding to  re-sight  the pipe used to the empty to the other end of the tank.  Next job is to get it all plumbed in.
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SteamboatPhil

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I sort of see where you are coming from Dave.....however....just a little observation......you should not be able to see anything coming from the funnels, because if you are seeing something  it means you are seeing steam vapour's, which means the steam into the engines is not being superheated enough and you are seeing the exhaust. On full size of course they were burning oil /coal which is what you see on their exhaust funnels not steam vapour.
The pre heat is of course a great help and as you say will help the gas consumption. Carry on the good work ( and don't worry about the soldering...the result works and that is the main thing)..
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DBS88

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Phil, thank you, you made me think and you are right about the steam dryer, it should mean no steam out the funnel once everything is up to temperature. On start up quite a bit of water flows until things hot up, then it decreases. The set up the boat came with had very limited capacity and long uninsulated pipe runs to the boiler chimneys as a result the water collected soon exceeded the capacity of the oil separator and pipe work so I had to do something. I made the oil separator with a massive increase in capacity. The idea was that the water would collect in the tank, then later, hopefully very hot steam would then pick up some of the water and then pass out of the separator to pipes that exited near the top of the models funnels. Like many ideas its not been 100% successful, more steam out of one pipe than the other, so some balancing required as well as some dispersion so the plume looks more natural. Next I will have to rework the pipes in and out of the oil separator since too much water was being carried out along the pipes to the funnel creating an unwanted mess. So not ideal, more work on it required. Any way here is a video of the engines and boiler running plus the red silicon piping for the oil separator. https://youtu.be/o5hhbtoC7To And here is a photo of the original pipework and small separator that I have removed.
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DBS88

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #147 on: September 12, 2021, 09:09:45 pm »

Apologies for the delay, Its been some months now since HMS Daring was on my work bench, I have been learning more about steam on other projects, so now its time to get back to finishing HMS Daring. Tonight was a gentle test run to refresh my memory as where I had got to. You may remember that I had a problem setting up the gas attenuator. Well on another project (Lady Sarah) I have successfully installed and set up an identical attenuator, so have brought the lessons learned to this project and after going through the process for setting it up I have concluded that there is actually a problem with this item, I cannot get the pilot flame set so will have to remove it and strip it down again to try to identify the problem. Anyway, it gives full gas flow as it is so carried on to warm the boiler and raise steam. The engines were run and the oil separator tested again, this time after running the engines for a few moments I emptied the separator and then continued to run the engines - the result was much less condensate being ejected, so will continue with it. Next steps then to sort the gas supply out and run the engines for longer. Here is a video clip form tonights test run https://youtu.be/ezn9fEKSv-k
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KBIO

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #148 on: September 13, 2021, 07:50:14 am »

Hello !
Always a pleasure to follow up your post Dave. :-))

Unfortunately , we cannot get away from the first condensation until the engine warms up.
I use to empty the separator when all is hot and put the boat in the water then.
I am eager to see your boat sailing ! ok2
Regards.

Geoff

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Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #149 on: September 14, 2021, 04:47:39 pm »

Very interesting and I'm watching this thread with avid interest. Well done on the restoration. I recon it will be very fast in the water!


Cheers


Geoff
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