Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7]   Go Down

Author Topic: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)  (Read 12691 times)

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 300
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #150 on: September 19, 2021, 08:44:15 pm »

With help and guidance from fellow mayhemmers I realise that the design of my horizontal oil separator could be improved upon so thank you for your input, as always, it is appreciated. For now I will make some changes to the piping to and from the separator and if it does not work well enough I will then change the design to include the ideas and feedback received, thank you.
Logged

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 300
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #151 on: October 14, 2021, 02:19:01 pm »

Some changes to tidy up the pipework for the steam exhaust have now been made. I re used and modified some of the original piping, so the exhaust from each engine now goes into a larger dia single pipe the steam the exits the larger pipe via two copper pipes and enters the oil/water separator via short red silicone tube connections. The steam then leaves the separator via two exhaust pipes which are temporally run up the sides of the two boiler exhausts. The boiler was run this morning and the new set up tested. The test was also to verify that the engine driven boiler feed pump was actually pumping water. The photo shows the newly arranged pipework and the video shows the results, the exhaust steam is now better balanced between the two outlets and the separator is working better. The lesson here is that even though the oil separator is bigger it still needs emptying very soon after start up, then it all runs a lot better - less messy once everything is hot. Good news the boiler feed pump is pumping. The original set up has the pump going direct to the boiler and no control over the amount of water going in; it may be that a clever engineer has set the gearing up so the right amount goes in, will connect it up and see what happens, however I suspect the next job will be to set up a bypass valve so that the amount of water going to the boiler can be regulated more precisely rather than just on engine speed. Here is a link to todays steam test of the oil separator and the boiler water feed pump. https://youtu.be/9iReAIsxd2A           
Logged

Geoff

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 938
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #152 on: October 14, 2021, 04:26:07 pm »

Vey nice and very well done!


Cheers


Geoff
Logged

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 300
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #153 on: November 08, 2021, 07:20:41 pm »

I had a bit of luck recently and obtained a genuine article from The Engineer published in August 1894, the article and pictures are about the engines used in HMS Daring and Decoy, so here for your enjoyment is the glorious engine that was fitted in Daring, Decoy, Ardent, Boxer and Bruiser. Each engine has Four cylinders, one high pressure 19 inches dia, one medium pressure 27 inches and two low pressure at 27 inches each with a 16 inch stroke. The crankshaft is an impressive 6 3/4 inches in dia
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,951
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Logged

Martin [Admin]

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 21,390
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #155 on: November 08, 2021, 08:24:31 pm »


..... are some of those cylinders at an angle ???
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!" -  Visit the Mayhem FaceBook Group!

Netleyned

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,029
  • Location: Meridian Line, Mouth of the Humber
    • cleethorpes mba
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #156 on: November 08, 2021, 08:44:47 pm »

ooks like a V4 😊
Ned
Logged
Smooth seas never made skilful sailors
Up Spirits  Stand fast the Holy Ghost.
http://www.cleethorpesmba.co.uk/

JimG

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 980
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Dundee
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #157 on: November 09, 2021, 12:58:00 pm »

It looks like the cylinders are set at an angle to allow simpler connections between them with a straighter run of piping. It looks like the left cylinder is high pressure with the medium pressure third from the left and the low pressure second an the rear.
Jim
Logged
Dundee Model Boat club

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,943
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #158 on: November 09, 2021, 01:57:31 pm »

So after a few assumptions %)   ....[as have labeled cylinders 1, 3 and 4]


It appears there is a cast steel Steam spool piece between the exhaust of the No 1 HP cylinder, and intersecting between the exhaust of No 3 LP cylinder to the inlet of No 4 LP cylinder?


The text quoting the single Mediuum Pressure as 27", and the pair of Low Pressure cylinders as 27", maybe a typo?....


so...


1. what is that transition spool piece?
2. is there a dimensional typo with cylinder dimensions?


However as always I will stand corrected by others with far greater knowledge of such engines 


Derek
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,951
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #159 on: November 09, 2021, 03:21:37 pm »

There's about half a page of explanation plus another drawing on the same page (p191) but I don't know how to separate a single page from a pdf file which is about 15mB. If anyone wants I'm quite happy to e-mail it.
Tony
Logged

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 300
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #160 on: November 09, 2021, 04:05:18 pm »

Here is the other picture of the engine which should answer some of the questions, will type up the relevant info tonight and post it here. Thank you for the interest and discussion
Logged

JimG

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 980
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Dundee
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #161 on: November 09, 2021, 07:24:24 pm »

So after a few assumptions %)   ....[as have labeled cylinders 1, 3 and 4]


It appears there is a cast steel Steam spool piece between the exhaust of the No 1 HP cylinder, and intersecting between the exhaust of No 3 LP cylinder to the inlet of No 4 LP cylinder?


The text quoting the single Mediuum Pressure as 27", and the pair of Low Pressure cylinders as 27", maybe a typo?....


so...


1. what is that transition spool piece?
2. is there a dimensional typo with cylinder dimensions?


However as always I will stand corrected by others with far greater knowledge of such engines 


Derek
I see that as the exhaust from no 2 the medium pressure cylinder at the back (not labelled by you) going into a link pipe to both the low pressure cylinder intakes. The linking pipe from no1 to no2 can't be seen as it is behind the front low pressure cylinder.
Jim
Logged
Dundee Model Boat club

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 300
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #162 on: November 09, 2021, 08:39:32 pm »

I have the actual page, its 127 years old, here's the important info. "the principle feature in their design is the inclination of the engines, which there are four in number (This is referring to the number of cylinders) high, medium and two low pressure - over hanging to port and starboard, the low pressure engines are the after most. --- when one piston is at the top of its stroke the other is at the bottom. The foremeost couple of course give twice the power given by the after couple and exert their turning moment on the crankshaft at right angles to that of the latter. (This was done to stop vibration) The dia of the cylinders are as follows HP 19inches, MP 27inches, two LP at 27 inches each with 16 inch stroke. There were two condensers each of 2100 sq feet. The crank shaft is of steel, 6 3/4 inches dia at the journals and 7 1/2 inches day at the pins. The connecting rods are hollow steel. The cylinders are cast iron bolted together. Hope this helps, there is more, but my typing speed is not that great, so you have the most important info, thank you for your interest.
Logged

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,943
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #163 on: November 10, 2021, 06:21:02 am »

So the explanation & confirmation of the cylinder/s location and orientation explains the cross over spool from the exhaust of No 2 Medium pressure cylinder, over equally to feed No 3 and No 4 Low pressure cylinders


Still, a very complex and compact engine.... O0  it is written, that matters of War deliver solutions beyond normal expectations

Derek 
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,951
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #164 on: November 10, 2021, 10:26:40 am »

For the second half of the equation, there's a very detailed and sometimes heated debate in the June 23rd 1894 edition of The Engineer regarding the benefits of the water-tube boiler over the locomotive boiler and the Thornycroft ones in Daring were used as an example. At that time destroyers such as Havoc and her sister ship Hornet would carry 2 locomotive boilers or 8 water-tube boilers respectively, with the same displacement, so direct trials could be carried out.Again, e-mail if you want a copy. About 15 meg
Logged

Circlip

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,887
  • Location: North of Watford, South of Hadrians wall
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #165 on: November 10, 2021, 11:01:41 am »

Some free (has to be, Yorkshire frugality) PDF "splitters" can be downloaded. One I regularly use is "Bytescout PDF multi tool". Can split AND compile back. Splits to various options.


 Clever Vee design reduces overall length of engine and solves individual cylinder valve chests not interfering with each other, look at triples.


  Regards  Ian.
Logged
You might not like what I say, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
 
What I said is not what you  think you heard.

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 300
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #166 on: November 19, 2021, 04:22:11 pm »

Thatís been a useful discussion on the engines and thank you for getting involved. I have now seen this for sale on an auction site, itís the drawings for the boilers, absolutely fascinating
Logged

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,951
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #167 on: November 19, 2021, 04:32:33 pm »

I suppose they're the forerunners of the flash steam boilers used in "racing" model steamers!
Logged

Circlip

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,887
  • Location: North of Watford, South of Hadrians wall
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #168 on: November 20, 2021, 01:01:56 pm »




  "Yarrow" type, high steam generation, Flash steamers have no water space, coiled tube.


  Regards  Ian.
Logged
You might not like what I say, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
 
What I said is not what you  think you heard.

tonyH

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,951
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Suffolk, England
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #169 on: November 20, 2021, 01:52:18 pm »

OK Ian, a halfway point then %) but not Yarrow in Daring. Yarrow generally had straight tubes while the Thornycroft ones had the curved ones to allow for the tubes to take up any distortion caused by differences in temperature between different areas. The downside of the curved ones was the difficulty in cleaning the tubes. The Whites actually tried spiral water tubes as but had major trouble getting good enough pipe to bend and rejected a lot of it. That said, they built a prototype in 1890 for an Admiralty launch and it worked well apparently.
It's certainly a great subject!
Tony
 
Logged

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 300
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #170 on: January 08, 2022, 09:50:23 pm »

Its been a while since I posted any progress since I have again been distracted by other steam projects which I hope to share with you. I will be back and getting on with the renovation soon. In the meantime my research and interest in HMS Daring continues and I have recently come across this account of the Stoker on board HMS Daring, Frederick Paffett, who was awarded the Albert Medal. The Albert Medal (For Gallantry In Saving Lives At Sea) is one of only 216 that were awarded. The award was made for his very brave actions on HMS Daring in June 1901 when a disaster occurred to the torpedo-boat destroyer. An explosion in the number 2 boiler happened whilst Fred was in the stoke-hold. As a result steam filled the stoke hold and the five crew inside were severely scalded Ė two so badly that they never recovered. At the time of the explosion, Fred was near the ladder, he helped the men to safety before returned to the stoke hold and opened the steam valve of the starboard fan to prevent a further explosions. Fred was badly scalded by the escaping steam, in particular his left arm which was shielding his face. Freds injuries left him badly disfigured, his face was scarred and his left arm almost useless. This account is based on the story from the Portsmouth Museum and Art Gallery, for the full details and full information please visit.
https://portsmouthmuseum.co.uk/collections-stories/stories/frederick-paffetts-courage-at-sea/

Logged

ballastanksian

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,136
  • Model Boat Mayhem inspires me!
  • Location: Crewkerne
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #171 on: January 09, 2022, 03:35:29 pm »

In the early years the navy was going for all out performance with ever greater speeds contracted for in future designs. So machinery ran at it's maximum, the structure of the hulls was as light as possible, and space was kept to a minimum to keep the hull as small as possible. Accidents like this must have been quite common until the navy realised that a slightly larger more capable all round design was superior, such as the River class and beyond.

Logged
Pond weed is your enemy

ballastanksian

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,136
  • Model Boat Mayhem inspires me!
  • Location: Crewkerne
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #172 on: January 09, 2022, 04:01:42 pm »

Also for your delectation:


Hopefully this will show up.... [size=78%]torpedo boat destroyer remains - Bing images[/size]


[size=78%]3552048707_246e508bb1_n.jpg (320◊110) (staticflickr.com)[/size]



Logged
Pond weed is your enemy

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 300
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #173 on: January 14, 2022, 05:07:58 pm »

ballastanksian thank you for your sharing those links, its much appreciated.

Logged

ballastanksian

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,136
  • Model Boat Mayhem inspires me!
  • Location: Crewkerne
Re: Torpedo Boat Destroyer, HMS Daring, Stuart Sun steam Engines (restoration)
« Reply #174 on: January 14, 2022, 11:12:01 pm »

My pleasure. It feels wrong to let these pieces rust away there but as they are an incomplete article I am not sure what could be done with them unless the Historic dockyard could use them in a display.
Logged
Pond weed is your enemy
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7]   Go Up