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Author Topic: the new P.o.W and her flood. ( HMS Prince of Wales )  (Read 1155 times)

dodes

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the new P.o.W and her flood. ( HMS Prince of Wales )
« on: December 08, 2020, 08:49:27 pm »

I see in the local rag and since been on t/v she has suffered another internal flooding situation, this time a fire main has fractured and completely flooded up a machinery space. A much vaunted trial in the states in the new year has been cancelled, as engineers are working to trace all the electrical system to find damage to repair, she is not aloud to sail until it is sorted and that could be May at earliest and will cost millions.

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kinmel

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2020, 08:40:01 am »

The ship didn't flood, it pumped water aboard and no-one noticed.

If only someone could invent an automatic flood alarm system, or even have a warning on the bridge if the fire pumps automatically start up.


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derekwarner

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2020, 10:03:10 am »

Local Newspapers usually get their information for the nearest Dockyard Pub after hours ........your Department of Navy are not permitted to confirm anything......all Defence Parliamentarians' spokespersons <*< couldn't lay straight in bed

Naval vessels fluid pipe pumping systems individual pump spools are each subjected to Ultrasonic examination, including x-ray and then hydrostatic pressure testing...so a pipe 'fracturing' could certainly lead to Criminal Charges in falsifying Test Documentation :P  



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Derek Warner

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derekwarner

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2020, 11:21:31 am »

The P of W issue......"A source told The Sun" {-) ..................need I say more?........who owns the Sun Newspapers in the UK?

"The man who owns The Sun, Rupert Murdoch .....need more be said?
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Derek Warner

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Baldrick

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2020, 02:28:41 pm »




 The news reports mention that the power network on the ship handles enough energy to power 30000 kettles .  Perhaps they should just use it for that then.  It also mentions that the pumps were running for 24 hours but that the source of the problem was soon identified and the water cleared up, however the ship will be out of commission for 6 months. {:-{
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dodes

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2020, 08:13:00 pm »

What ever still begs the question why their was no bilge alarm. How a compartment was totally flooded with no one noticing and no alarms, especially a tech space, but then she was built to MoDn /BEA spec.
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kinmel

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2020, 09:44:55 pm »

When you are only spending £3.12billion on a ship you can't expect any optional extras to be included.
It has been suggested that the whole episode was just yet another terrible misfortune.

 The plan was to save money by scuttling the ship and some idiot turned off the pump.  No other explanation holds water  :embarrassed:
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dodes

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2020, 01:37:16 pm »

Yeah well i know one of them nearly had it's inter shaft coupling all but parted company, 75% of shaft flange joining bolts failing.
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2021, 09:27:09 am »

All large modern merchant vessels nowadays are fitted with two independent parallel bilge systems, a Daily Bilge system, for daily leaks and drips, and a Rule Bilge system to meet classification standards and is sized by compartment size, pump capacity and equipment in the spaces.


Every watertight compartment will contain a bilge well in each corner of the compartment, each containing a multi-stage alarm sensor with a Low Level alarm and a High Level alarm.  These alarms are shown in the Engine Control Room, ECR, and repeated on the bridge, both spaces are manned 24/7.  Usually the Ballast System can also be crossed over to the Rule Bilge system for additional capacity and also, in main propulsion spaces, there will be an Emergency Bilge suction connected to the largest capacity pump, usually the Main Sea Water pump.  The Rule Bilge system will have a direct overboard valve that can only be opened on authority of the Master, plus the Main Sea Water Pump will be directly overboard.


That is the arrangement on a merchant ship, I would fully expect a warship to have higher levels of detection and redundancy.  None of this is negotiable, it is all clearly laid down in Classification Society Building regulations and monitored closely by them during the build process.  Cost is not a factor.


All bilge alarms should be attended to, by sight, as a priority to maintain a clear panel and an immediate and obvious warning. If equipment that has the potential to either cause flooding or to compromise the bilge system is out of commission then additional watchkeeping manpower should be used to protect the space.


Flooding of a compartment to a level whereby electrical equipment is damaged simply cannot happen if all equipment is being used as designed.  If a main is temporarily broken for maintenance the end should have a temporary blank flange fitted.  If the bilge system is down then alternative temporary arrangements should have been in place.


Allowing for the fact that the media will have completely changed the facts for the sake of a story the fact remains that, in this day and age, the flooding of a compartment simply should not happen and I would be very surprised if anyone can come up with a creative scenario to justify an ‘Unavoidable Accident’.


And yes, one fire pump will be designated as an emergency pump and will automatically start on reduction of system pressure.  That way, in case of fire, all you need to do is open a hydrant and the pump will start up.  Further pumps can then be manually put on line depending on the number of hydrants in use.
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dodes

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2021, 08:12:53 pm »

I left the MoD in 2007, but If I remember correctly before then the MoD was in discussion with Lloyds to survey and use Class specifications for warships, but it was still in talks when I left. But both vessels(the QE 7 POW) have several million spent on repairs since being commissioned and the local rag has had a long article on asking about the standard of build because of the millions spent in repairs and the POW they still cannot give a date for completion of repair, the Navy is blaming Coved and lack of skilled engineers to progress the repair. But the damage to electric systems done by the flooding is pretty severe by all accounts. 
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Colin Bishop

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2021, 08:25:04 pm »

Reading betwen the lines it looks like faulty construction coupled with inadequate engineering monitoring.

Colin
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kinmel

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2021, 08:35:59 pm »

The Grenfell syndrome then.
Everyone knew what would happen when self-certification was introduced, but they did it anyway. Efficiency over effectiveness.
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Baldrick

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2021, 09:14:32 pm »

The Grenfell syndrome then.
Everyone knew what would happen when self-certification was introduced, but they did it anyway. Efficiency over effectiveness.


  They knew that tendering contractors would find creative methods of interpreting the regs' in order to reduce costs and push down the bottom line tender figure and ignore the environmental and safety consequences.  I remember Kensington and Chelsea Council and their engineers back in the old days when Lancaster Road West Development (as it was known was first built). Their in house engineers and inspectors were the toughest in the country, nobody got anything past them , they were the best and most proficient and notorious for their professionalism .Also we had the BRS at Garston who carried out all manor of tests (including flammability)and until they had thoroughly proved a products suitability it could not be certified and used.  When the government bean counters started the cost cutting the crews were all down the road. After all they could make the contractor responsible for the standards of design and construction , what could be wrong with that , the contractor who could be most effective in salami slicing would get the job . Talk about giving the fox the keys of the hen house.   Oh yes, and they flogged off the Building Research Station to private enterprise and emasculated them 
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2021, 10:20:59 pm »

The point I was making, which only Colin seems to understand, is that whatever the reason for the initial ingress of water was, which can be argued till the cows come home, the reason an incident became a disaster was as a result of poor watchkeeping practices and procedures. Good, efficient, sound basic watch keeping practises seem to have become a dying art as more and more of us choose to view the working environment through a screen rather than get out there and have a good old fashioned look around the job.


I have dealt with broken pipes, bonnets blown off valves and even on more than one occasion holes in the hull.  Sound watchkeeping practises identified the issues in sufficient time to deal with them without disabling the ship.
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Shipmate60

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2021, 10:38:25 pm »

On the sea-going RMAS ships (which were built to the old Naval Engineering Standard) each lower compartment plus others had float valve alarms in the lowest well in the compartment. These were tested weekly. Not now it seems.


Bob
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kinmel

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood.
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2021, 10:48:13 pm »

Bunkerbarge, I agree with you on the ideal scenario, but those days have passed.

Barely adequate manning and construction driven only by cost cutting requires automated oversight.   None of this is magic, or difficult to achieve and it is even cost effective.

Don't worry about future costs, just reduce costs now to get the thing built.

Type 45's proved that with power plants that will only work in cold sea water.


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Rob47

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood. ( HMS Prince of Wales )
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2021, 01:48:52 pm »

It was not the whole power plant more the  ‘intercooler-recuperator’, the actual engines are capable of running in cold water but that part failed, problems have been rectified and all T45 have upgrades so can now operate normally, think two to go for all completed.  The media are to blame for the engines don't work scenario, without checking first

Bob
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kinmel

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood. ( HMS Prince of Wales )
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2021, 04:14:29 pm »

It doesn't matter which part failed due to warm water, the design should have foreseen where it would be used and have built-in redundancy anyway.   £6.3billion projects should not have such faults.


In one these regular failures Daring suffered "near-complete power generation failures, temporarily disabling not only propulsion, but power generation for weapons, navigational systems, and other purposes" and it had to limp into a Canadian dockyard for repairs.
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Liverbudgie2

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood. ( HMS Prince of Wales )
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2021, 04:41:21 pm »

It was not the whole power plant more the  ‘intercooler-recuperator’, the actual engines are capable of running in cold water but that part failed, problems have been rectified and all T45 have upgrades so can now operate normally, think two to go for all completed.  The media are to blame for the engines don't work scenario, without checking first

Bob




One being completed, five to go.


LB
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gingyer

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Re: the new P.o.W and her flood. ( HMS Prince of Wales )
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2021, 04:43:03 pm »

It was highlighted Bae systems had originally designed it with the unit they are retro fitting to all the boats now.
It was the MoD designers who said nah..it will be fine and we can save money by dropping the spec of the inter cooler.


And that is why Bae are sitting smiling as it wasn’t their design change and they don’t have to pay anything toward the fix.
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