Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length.

[JimG]

Hi Jim you would have thought so wouldn't you but no.  The original plans state that each scarf joint on the keel had 3 tree nails of 20mm diameter.  Also each joint was sealed (I guess with tar) so I can only presume, as I don't really know that it must have been something to do with corrosion.


The keelson is simply nailed to the keel too which is is its opposite half.  I wish they were bolts as I could use carbon again rather than making tree nails.

The tar was to stop water getting into the joint and causing rot, this would leave a very weak keel.If you want to see what happens to a wooden hull due to rot you should look at the You Tube channel Sailing Yabá where they a rebuilding a Brazilian schooner allowed to sit without maintenance.
Jim

[Mark T]

Thanks Jim I thought it was tar but its nice to know I was right 


A bit more done today as the keel had dried nicely overnight.  First was to drill and fit the treenails into the scarf joints.  This went ok








Next I made the sternpost which is set at an angle.  This involved making the mortice for the tenon in the keel and also the rabbet for the planking had to be cut. I also made the false sternpost which sits behind the sternpost.  I have no idea why but this is the way it was built.











And now its all been glued to the keel and hopefully I'll get it all cleaned up tomorrow.  I can then start on the rising wood which is what the frames sit on.





Mark 

[JimG]

Next I made the sternpost which is set at an angle.  This involved making the mortice for the tenon in the keel and also the rabbet for the planking had to be cut. I also made the false sternpost which sits behind the sternpost.  I have no idea why but this is the way it was built.

Mark 

I would expect the false sternpost to be sacrificial, easier to replace if damaged, the real sternpost has the transom frames mounted to it.

Jim

[Mark T]

Now that makes sense Jim     I guess with either rot or collision this would be the easier option.  Mind you its job with its 7 crew and one boy was to carry gun powder.  I reckon if something went wrong they would need a new boat 

[warspite]

Also would the hinges for the rudder be connected to this sacrificial stern post, with the stresses and strains of the rudder, would that not deteriorate the structure as well

[JimG]

Also would the hinges for the rudder be connected to this sacrificial stern post, with the stresses and strains of the rudder, would that not deteriorate the structure as well

The arms on the hinges would extend to the true sternpost so they would be bolted to both. I would expect the false sternpost to be bolted to the true one making a strong structure. However as this is quite a small boat they may just have used trenails as in the keel. Looking at larger hulls they generally had the  post bolted through to the transom frames and the deadwood creating a very strong structure.
Jim

[Mark T]

Thanks for the info lads its this sort of thing that brings a build to life.  Jim you are spot on this is a very small boat - It had a crew of 7 men and 1 boy when working.  It must have been extremely cramped for them all.


The sternpost has turned out ok and now the keel parts are complete.  It did forget to put a tar line under the false sternpost but I'll put a bit of paint there at a later date.  I'm glad to say that it exactly matches the plan - If it didn't could you imagine the amount of corrections involved for the rest of the build!











I've now made a start on the stern rising wood and also the part that the transom parts fit onto.  Here are the first two parts and there's plenty more to do.  I did make the mistake of drilling the holes 3mm when the holes in the frames are 2mm.  Oh well not to worry I'll enlarge the holes in the frames when it comes to fitting them.














These two parts both need tapering and I need to put some thought into how I'm going to do this without ruining them.  I'll have a think about that tomorrow


Mark 

[JimG]

Great work, Mark one of your next jobs has to be a set of scale shipwrights for when the hull is being assembled
Jim.

[Mark T]

Thanks Jim they would certainly add something to the pictures     I'm hoping to get staring to assemble maybe in June but we'll see how I get on 

[Mark T]

Today I made the sternpost knee extension which is quite tricky to make.  It has many notches of differing angles and then has to be tapered toward the stern and also down toward the keel.  I started by milling out the notches





Next I marked out the tapers and got on with the job.  You can see how deep I had to taper as there is a small triangle left on either side which shows the original thickness.  This small triangle is part of the planking rabbet.








Next I rough assembled the sternpost knee assembly as the two other parts that I had previously made also required tapering too.








Finally the whole lot was blended together








Here it is just sitting in its place on the keel - Its now all glued together and I'll get the clamps off in the morning.  Thats a full 9 hours work there 





Mark 

[Mark T]

I got some more done today.  Firstly I had to correct an omission on my part.  The rising wood had a different width for the two halves of the frames.  I forgot to narrow the part that the floor frame sits on but luckily for on 3 of the frames. 








Next I made another tricky part - the lower apron and the apron.  The lower apron it the base for the frames that rise up at the stem and the apron sits on top of this behind the stem.  Its now clamped up and I'm waiting for the glue to dry.














My next job will be to concentrate on the rabbet that runs up the stem. I need to put some thought into this as I think I will just have to carve it out by hand.


Mark 

[B.B]

Perfection at its best Mark T  .

[Mark T]

Perfection at its best Mark T  .

Hi Brian and thanks but don't forget I take the photos and do the lighting too     I have to ask you though - when you cut a scarf do you need to jiggle/adjust them to get them right because I do but I've only just started cutting them - or do they just go straight together for you.  Any tips would be very welcome mate 


I've now cut the rabbet for the planking up the stem and also on the keel.  I find this work very time consuming but also very worthwhile and pleasing.  I like the way the rabbet runs under the lower apron it just looks nice.  Talking of which I do have a small gap between the stem and the apron even though I scribed the two parts together.  I need to learn from this and improve.








I did make a mistake as I marked out the rabbet far too wide - luckily I realised this after having cut about an 1 1/2 down the stem so I inlayed a piece of wood and started again.  I think the repair turned out OK and of course only we know about this 





I've also noticed that I need to do a little more work on the stern rabbet and I'll have a go at that in the morning.  I feel like I'm starting to get somewhere now 





The good new is I'm back to work next week so I'll be building at my usual snails pace 


Cheers everyone - Mark 

[B.B]

Hi Mark T,   same here ,doesn't matter how many accurate measurements when marking out a scarfing joint, maybe 1 or 2 spot on but generally have to shave a bit off here or there to obtain that satisfying joint. With the rabbet line inlay I would call that a dam good save  looks good to me  all I can say is Mark , thank goodness for photo's other wise we wouldn't be seeing the incredible workmanship you are putting into this model,cheers  .

[Mark T]

Hi Brian and thanks sharing your experience and thanks for your comments too      For some reason I always just want the scarfs to snap together but at this small scale I do have to fettle them and sometimes make them again.  I'm really glad its not just me     I'm really getting into this small scale carpentry its so nice when it just "fits" but I've loads to learn.


I was lucky with the inlay as I was using a 45 degree router bit which gave me a perfect surface to glue another piece of wood too.  I'm just glad that I realised and stopped.  I often put the work down for a few hours when something like this happens, so that I can try and work out the best thing to do rather than panic and make it worse.


Today has been a cleaning day     It was time to give my workshop a really deep clean as I've been making loads of dust.  I work indoors so its only right that I keep it all under control.  I did revisit the sternpost rabbet and adjusted it a bit - it now has a much more smooth transition.  This may seem like a small thing to do but I remember my last build and I found that getting the rabbet correct made the planking just that little bit easier to do.





Back to work in the morning     The alarm is set for 02:30 but I've enjoyed my week off


Mark 

[SailorGreg]

Sorry, what time was that?  The only 2.30 I recognise is shortly after lunch.  I don't need an alarm to remind me of lunchtime, my stomach does an excellent job. 

Well, I hope you can still find time for the odd bit of wood engineering.  I wait eagerly for the first frames to be erected and we can see the outline of that fine hull. 


Hope work goes well!


Greg

[DJW]

Just been looking over the build log Mark.
Awesome workmanship...!
Can't wait for you to finish, so we can see what you can do with a Riva build... 
David.

[JimG]

Mark no need to worry over the need to fettle your scarf joints as even the full size professional shipwrights do this. When Leo at Sampson Boat Co. was making the scarf joints in rebuilding Tally Ho they were always cut oversize and trimmed down to fit.
Jim

[Mark T]

Thanks for all of the advice and comments lads 


Now  - Disaster 


I knew this would happen at some point and I guess its better to happen now than later.  Today I was going to make the last two parts of the rising wood and finish the keel assembly.  I thought that I had best check again the work that I had done and found a big error.


Now the thing thats troubling me is I'm not sure how this has happened.  I placed my work on the plan like I have many times before and the stem is completely wrong.  Its 1.65mm out of kilter which is way too much to carry on or correct.  Its a bit like building a house with un-level foundations so I need to stop before going any further.


The last time I placed the keel on the plan it was correct and now it's not?  I think I may have over clamped the apron and bent the stem but I'm unsure.  Here's a picture of the problem.





This cannot be fixed     So the keel is scrap now as too much going forward relies on this being absolutely spot on.


So it's been sitting in a bath of IPA to try and salvage some of the parts but so far nothing's budged.  My joints are possibly too tight for the IPA to do its job and separate the individual parts.  I'll let you know how I get on but it looks like a full keel rebuild at the moment.


Hey ho - these things are sent to try us - but its got to be right     Leave it with me and I'll keep you posted.  Luckily I have a good wood supplier 

[radiojoe]

That's a great pity Mark after all that work, now I know how meticulous you are but, and this is just a suggestion, it looks like the bow end and it's not got to move much to put on the right line, so I would cut about 3/4 though or enough to let it flex onto the line and glue a slither in the resulting gap as the very rough drawing, like I said Mark just a suggestion to maybe save an awful lot more painstaking work.


Joe

[Mark T]

Hi Joe


Me and you are on the same page mate     I really thought about doing this - but I just can't. 


For me at this moment it's not about fixing it to get it done its trying to understand what I did wrong.  I just cannot fathom how this has moved so much in the week I've been at work.  Its obviously my fault and I'm really ok with that I'm just a bit flummoxed!  Even my wife said that it was perfect before so what's happened.


If I don't remake it I'll just look back in a couple of years and wish that I had.


I'm hoping to salvage some of the harder bits to make but if not so be it.  Its just one of those things I guess mate  - it makes for a pretty repetitive build log though.


Thanks again Joe - Mark 

[radiojoe]

Totally understand Mark and more power to ya mate, I worked with wood all my working life and it is a law unto it's self and the more joints you have in a particular structure the more it is likely to move as the glue cures in each joint it shrinks a fraction so the sum shrinkage over all can sometimes be noticed, can I suggest the next time you get to the point of gluing the whole keel together put a brace between the two top ends while curing, and I hope I'm not teaching grandma to suck eggs, This is the most complicated build I've ever seen so don't worry if it gets repetitive I for one will be following




Joe

[Capt Podge]

Totally agree with Joe's comments Mark, you've got what it takes to conquer this - skill and determination  .


Ray.

[RST]

Surely if you over clamped it, it's possible to over clamp it the other way to correct?  I thought that was one of the foibles of wood butchery?  Sorry for my niavity in asking.

[Mark T]

Totally understand Mark and more power to ya mate, I worked with wood all my working life and it is a law unto it's self and the more joints you have in a particular structure the more it is likely to move as the glue cures in each joint it shrinks a fraction so the sum shrinkage over all can sometimes be noticed, can I suggest the next time you get to the point of gluing the whole keel together put a brace between the two top ends while curing, and I hope I'm not teaching grandma to suck eggs, This is the most complicated build I've ever seen so don't worry if it gets repetitive I for one will be following




Joe

Thanks Joe and you are right in everything you say.  Wood I is a new material for me as I've always been a metal worker.  I'm going to make a brace and take your advice on this one.  Funnily enough I don't feel down in anyway about this error I just see it as a learning curve.  I must not force joints together they must sit as they are made.  I've never really understood the stresses in wood in all honesty but I'm learning them now the hard way.  If I do have to make it all again well I do!  Thanks for the advice and support 

Totally agree with Joe's comments Mark, you've got what it takes to conquer this - skill and determination  .


Ray.

Thanks Ray - That means a lot today mate     I will sort this out no matter what.  It would be so simple just to carry on but it wouldn't be right.  I've always said its very important to show the mistakes as well as the wins