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Author Topic: Ply starting or actually de-laminating. What to do?  (Read 1714 times)

madwelshman

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Ply starting or actually de-laminating. What to do?
« on: December 17, 2020, 11:17:26 pm »

Hi guys,


I have recently bought an Aerokits Sea Commander and there are a few parts of it where the ply is either starting to, or has de-laminated.


Now I'm guessing that ideally, replacement of the area is more than likely the recommended option, but seeing as my skills aren't that great as yet, I don't really want to go down that route, especially as one area is the front half of the keel and also two if the bulkheads.


Before buying it the boat was, and is now stored somewhere nice and dry. So, are there any products that anyone can recommend that will get between the laminations and once the areas are clamped, will bond the laminations back together. Obviously, unless there's some miracle product or process, I'm guessing that nothing will 'fully' bond all of the laminations back together, but for me, keel replacement especially, isn't an option. The bulkheads, maybe I could do something about replacing if I really had to, but for now at least, I'd really rather not.


The underside of the hull itself and keel all appear solid, as does the rear half of the keel, with no obvious signs of previous leaks or any soft spots, so this is another reason that I don't really want to attempt keel replacement.


Thanks in advance for any advice.


Will
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42" Veron Fairey Huntsman 28
34" Precedent Fairey Huntsman 31 x2
34" Aerokits Sea Commander x2
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RST

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Re: Ply starting or actually de-laminating. What to do?
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2020, 12:11:21 am »

Will if it was me I'd have some tiny G clamps (they're cheap enough) and see if that delamination pulls back flat first -maybe make up some wood blocks etc to spread the force evenly.  Then just pour in Deluxe "super phatic"* alphatic glue in and re-clamp so it's all straight and forget about it for 24h apart from making it neat and not getting spillage on the clamps!


*I'm not a general fan of Deluxe products but for me they nailed it bang-on with "super phatic" and worth every penny of it in the right circumstance.


...Others will no doubt advise properly.

Rich
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 01:02:42 am by RST »
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madwelshman

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Re: Ply starting or actually de-laminating. What to do?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2020, 12:38:08 am »

I have tried squeezing the areas of the keel that I can currently reach (haven't removed the motor yet) and the bulkheads too and they all seem to close up.
My thoughts were using whatever recommended product and then with either some thickish timber that won't distort when clamped, or some flat steel/aluminium and numerous clamps along the length to compress it all while it cures.


So, I'm confident that with the right product, these laminations would close up and hold together.


Will
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49" Precedent Perkasa
46" Aerokits Sea Queen
42" Veron Fairey Huntsman 28
34" Precedent Fairey Huntsman 31 x2
34" Aerokits Sea Commander x2
29" Aerokits Sea Rover
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20" Aerokits Fast Patrol Boat
16" Aerokits Sea Urchin

derekwarner

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Re: Ply starting or actually de-laminating. What to do?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2020, 01:06:33 am »

I am sure Rich is on the correct path......and from the photograph shown, a repair of his nature is totally acceptable in bringing the keel timbers back to a sound condition


The only extra precautions are to dry the delaminated keel plate timbers carefully......10 minutes extra with a domestic hair dryer will assist, although if you use an aliphatic glue, these are water soluble so the extreme dryness may not be necessary


I don't believe we have Super Deluxe aliphatic glue in Australia, however we do have Titebond and Gorilla products.......must remember, the keel plate on the lower externals must be protected from the ingress of water from that direction


The use of a semi rigid plastic sheet as a membrane against the keel wood + clamped supports will assist in ensuring that any support timber doesn't end up as a glued part   :-X

If the surrounding timbers are bare, a liberal coating of a clear polyurethane paint or even Z-Poxy will assist in ensuring no further de-laminations occur


Derek 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2020, 01:12:30 am by derekwarner »
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Derek Warner

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tigertiger

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Re: Ply starting or actually de-laminating. What to do?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2020, 01:36:39 am »

Just a small note of caution on polyurethane glues, like Gorilla Glue. They foam and expand as they react, unless they are tightly clamped this can force the wood joint apart. As you are gluing ply that is already delaminating, it might be an idea to avoid this type of glue.
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RST

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Re: Ply starting or actually de-laminating. What to do?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2020, 01:56:05 am »

I am sure Rich is on the correct path......and from the photograph shown, a repair of his nature is totally acceptable in bringing the keel timbers back to a sound condition


The only extra precautions are to dry the delaminated keel plate timbers carefully......10 minutes extra with a domestic hair dryer will assist, although if you use an aliphatic glue, these are water soluble so the extreme dryness may not be necessary


I don't believe we have Super Deluxe aliphatic glue in Australia, however we do have Titebond and Gorilla products.......must remember, the keel plate on the lower externals must be protected from the ingress of water from that direction


The use of a semi rigid plastic sheet as a membrane against the keel wood + clamped supports will assist in ensuring that any support timber doesn't end up as a glued part   :-X

If the surrounding timbers are bare, a liberal coating of a clear polyurethane paint or even Z-Poxy will assist in ensuring no further de-laminations occur


Derek 
Not familiar with AUS geography but on a tangent Derek:
https://www.frontlinehobbies.com.au/deluxe-materials-ad21-super-phatic
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canabus

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Re: Ply starting or actually de-laminating. What to do?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2020, 08:31:25 am »

Hi
RST is spot on and the hairdryer will let the wood flex back together with the glue applied.


Coat the whole inside with fibreglass resin to seal all the wood.


Canabus
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madwelshman

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Re: Ply starting or actually de-laminating. What to do?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2020, 08:35:47 am »


Thanks for the replies/suggestions guys, much appreciated.


Maybe in the future, when the task of replacing the affected areas doesn't seem quite so daunting, I may well tackle it, but for now, I just want to protect the areas from getting much/any worse so that I can kit it out and get some use out of the boat.


Will
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46" Aerokits Sea Queen
42" Veron Fairey Huntsman 28
34" Precedent Fairey Huntsman 31 x2
34" Aerokits Sea Commander x2
29" Aerokits Sea Rover
26" Pilot Boat
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16" Aerokits Sea Urchin

derekwarner

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Re: Ply starting or actually de-laminating. What to do?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2020, 11:25:07 am »

Thanks RST [Rich] ....


this Deluxe - Super Phatic is obviously an alternative chemistry, formula & process to the waterproof PVA's, the Polyurethane's or the Superglue generic products etc....the video presentation is impressive especially the application method with the hypo-needle


@$14.99/50ml + postage here in OZ, it appears as an expensive trial  :o


Derek
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Ply starting or actually de-laminating. What to do?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2020, 11:46:29 am »

SuperPhatic does a good job of sticking wood to plastic and in a lot of situations where one surface is porous and the other is not. In that respect it is a good alternative to superglue as any excess can be wiped away with a damp cloth. Like many, I am allergic to conventional superglue and find SuperPhatic really useful.

It is a thin milky acrylic which dries almost clear but there is a hint of stickiness about it which I guess is what makes it effective on non porous material. Excess glue residue when dry is slightly yellowish and a bit rubbery. (and hard to remove)

Unlike superglue it isn't much good if both surfaces are non porous.

Yes, it does look a bit expensive but a little goes a long way and it doesn't go off like superglue so you don't need to buy so much!

Colin
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david48

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Re: Ply starting or actually de-laminating. What to do?
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2020, 12:12:27 pm »

 Captain Tollies Creeping crack cure .Captain Tolley - Find and Fix Leaks
This is realy good stuff ,it is as thin as water and if used with a syringe it penetrates into places you can not see I used it on my build and on a a full sized yacht.
David 
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madwelshman

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Re: Ply starting or actually de-laminating. What to do?
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2020, 07:02:29 pm »

Cheers guys, thank you very much for the advice and sharing your knowledge.


I am looking forward to tackling this and hopefully making it both solid and both the hull and the timber water tight.


Regards and thanks
Will
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49" Precedent Perkasa
46" Aerokits Sea Queen
42" Veron Fairey Huntsman 28
34" Precedent Fairey Huntsman 31 x2
34" Aerokits Sea Commander x2
29" Aerokits Sea Rover
26" Pilot Boat
20" Aerokits Fast Patrol Boat
16" Aerokits Sea Urchin
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