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Author Topic: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’  (Read 5935 times)

Laker

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #75 on: February 07, 2021, 05:23:03 pm »

Probably the final additions were the two sheer poles that run along the tops of the deadeyes on either side.  They are a nice detail and they help to keep the deadeyes facing outwards as well.  I found that household bamboo skewers were the right diameter, as well as being lightweight and strong, so I cut some of these to length and stained them with a suitable dark woodstain.  They were then sewn on to the rigging above each deadeye.
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roycv

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #76 on: February 08, 2021, 09:23:19 am »

Hi Lakar I am really enjoying this thread, right up my street.  I agree the deadeyes with the sheer poles look good.

Thought you might like this anecdote.  I was on a dive boat in Thailand 4 years ago.  The Captain had a third share in the boat and was French but spoke English.  The boat was a fishing boat and he bought it part built on the stocks and had it lengthened by a third, for passenger accomodation.
There were just 12 of us passengers and 14 crew on the boat for a week in the Andaman Sea, so lots of contact with crew.  After getting to know him and finding out the origins, the boat was new but 'aged' with old fittings.  I drew him to oneside and said all his 'deadeyes' were upside down.
 
He said they do not do anything, just there to look pretty.  His words were to 'Add Character'.
regards
Roy
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Laker

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #77 on: February 09, 2021, 09:28:30 pm »

Thanks Roy and it sounds like you had an interesting trip.  Strange about the captain not realising the deadeyes were upside down, and it sounds as though the shipyard that built his boat didn't know either!  I like anything on a model that works like the full-size article and it's nice to be able to tension the shrouds using the lanyards and deadeyes.  I have a model Thames Barge in 1/24th scale which has much smaller deadeyes, but they are rigged the same way and work just as well.
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AndyBiggs

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #78 on: February 11, 2021, 06:21:26 am »

Many thanks for sharing this. It looks a superb model and like your approach to make it practicable for sailing. Am new to model boating and am considering a Marguerite hull from Sarik
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roycv

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2021, 09:08:05 am »

Hi Laker quite a few years ago we had a very very long running series on building the SS Great Brittain with all those masts.  When the guy had finished the rigging he realised he had put all the deadeyes in wrongly.  He was frustrated but to undo so much work was not going to happen.

As it happened we were preparing our own club stand at the ME exhibition when he arrived to show the model for the first time and I went across to help him move it on to his stand very nice model and most would never know the error.
I sometimes wonder how much time should be spent on a model and where to draw the line.  There used to be a stand off scale competition and I would subscribe more to that.  With your Eliza Rose there is nice crisp woodwork and simple presentation.  She looks good on the water and responds well.

Maybe an ancient looking gent at the tiller would add a little character but that is all.  After that you would have to choose wood which had the same grain effect as the full size and then it all gets a bit obscure.
From what I have seen of clothed figures on model boats they are best avoided.

Most people get the ropes wrong if it is not in use put it somewhere safe.
A couple of years ago I was sailing with my son and we were coming into moor up at his jetty sails down with the 40 HP engine and against tide and wind.  We were on his 40 foot yacht I was at the starboard side by the shouds ready to catch a loop around the wood pile support for the jetty.  About 10 feet away the engine stopped and would not start.  He beared away and quickly unfurled the genoa sail and we picked up speed across the rather fast running tide.

We were positioned about half a mile from the 'Rip' bridge where the water nearly doubles its speed and the mast is too high to go under the bridge.  We were being swept down towards it but we were making ground and getting across the tide, we tacked twice just on the fore sail and then he sailed us exactly to where I could catch a loop again.  It was an expertly done bit of seamanship!

This all happened because someone up stream carelessly let a 40 foot polythene mooring rope fall off their boat!  His Beneteau yacht has two rudders so that an entangled propeller does not affect using the rudders, if it had been a single rudder we may well have lost the yacht as it smashed its way under the bridge!
The next day at low tide he donned his face mask and with a sharp knife cut away the rope which had stretched and melted to quite a thin shape until it was all done.  We then had two unequal lengths of good quality rope. 

I found some whipping twine, trimmed the rope and whipped the frayed ends and presented him with one decent mooring rope and a shorter one which we never found a use for.  So ropes are always secured even when about to use them and mooring ropes are stored in lockers.
If you want to identify the area, it is in Australia, north of Sydney at the Broken Bay entry leading to Brisbane Water which is under the bridge.  The water is about 250 metres wide at this point and a strong tide runs up and down.  We have to time our arrival as the draft of the yacht needs a full tide to navigate the winding channel to the sea.  I would be there now but for covid!

Best regards
Roy


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Laker

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2021, 02:56:52 pm »

Just to reply to Andy - great to hear from someone new to the hobby and I hope you continue to build a cutter model.  I took a look at the Marguerite on Sarik's site and it looks an elegant hull, with the more traditional counter stern.  I met David Alderton once too - his models are quite well known, especially here in the West country.
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Laker

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2021, 03:11:14 pm »

Hello Roy and thanks for the feedback.  It's funny how after spending so long looking at a model you stop seeing things.  In my case I'm sure I intended to tidy up the loose ends of the rigging at some point but I have never got beyond coiling them up on the deck.  I will look into it and perhaps fasten them to the pinrails.

Likewise I did intend putting a figure in the cockpit (perhaps a removable figure, because my wife isn't keen on the idea!).  I too am wary of figures fitted with real cloth clothing.  I will have another look at the mouldings available but I will need something fairly lightweight.  It's certainly true that people notice the crew models on boats and ships when they're sailing.
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Laker

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2021, 11:40:21 am »

I think that pretty much brings us to the end of building ‘Eliza Rose’.  If you have made it this far then thank you and I hope you have enjoyed it!  She has turned out as well as I hoped, making a pretty model to display and sail although not finished to a museum standard.  She has proved to be robust enough to de-rig and re-assemble many times over and she has been displayed many times at various model exhibitions in the West Country.  I think she has been sailed about 50 times now and she’s clocked up about 60 hours on the water, sometimes sailing for a couple of hours at a time. 
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Laker

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2021, 11:44:56 am »

I’m very much looking forward to sailing again – hopefully we will be allowed to use the lakes again in the Spring?  I will try to get some better sailing photos of Eliza Rose to post here when the opportunity comes.  I have quite a few photos of her on the water like this one from May 2013 but most of these are more what I would call ‘floating’ than sailing.  This is probably because I had to take the pictures while I was sailing her and holding the transmitter.  I will see if I can get some help with photography, in which case hopefully I can post some pictures of her heeling in the breeze and making some wake.   In the meantime, it’s Valentine’s Day so I suppose I should finish this and pay some attention to my wife!  All the best everyone and keep on building.
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AndyBiggs

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2021, 12:29:10 pm »

Many thanks for a detailed record, it’s very useful, helpful and encouraging
I’ve ordered a Moonbeam kit as my first build and once learnt through this, will then look again at a Pilot Cutter hull.


Reading through various articles/posts many people mention “epoxy” but never confirm which type. I currently sail a “full size” boat and have had good success with West Epoxy for wood to GRP but wondered what others use?
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roycv

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #85 on: February 14, 2021, 01:10:34 pm »

Hi Andy you have a PM.
Roy
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Laker

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #86 on: February 15, 2021, 09:16:02 pm »

Hello Andy - probably the best advice is to look under 'Technical, Techniques, hints and tips' on this Forum - there is a whole section there on GRP and Epoxy with dozens of threads.  When I did the glassfibre reinforcement of the deck braces etc. for Eliza Rose I used "David's Fastglas Resin and Hardener" which probably came from Halfords.  It did the job and none of the joints have failed but I seem to remember it setting quite quickly so there wasn't much time to work with it.  If I was starting again now I would probably buy one of the specialist modelling 2-part epoxy mixes that are available.  For smaller epoxy tasks such as gluing the brass hinge fittings onto the rudder I used Araldite - I used both the 24hr and quick setting versions on this build in various places.
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AndyBiggs

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2021, 09:45:23 pm »

Thanks
Advice much appreciated
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Laker

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #88 on: September 15, 2021, 09:35:23 pm »

I've been meaning to come back to this thread and post some more sailing pictures to show the model with a bit more wind in the sails - sorry it has taken a while!  Anyway I have been able to go sailing a number of times over the summer with this and some other models, so things are looking up again.  On 22nd August I spent a very enjoyable Sunday at the Warminster model boat club's lake in the Warminster pleasure gardens.  The lake is fantastic for model boating and the club is lively and very welcoming, so thanks again to the organisers.  Early on I sailed the model with the topsail in place but as the day progressed the breeze got up to maybe 10-15mph and I took the topsail down again.  This is when I took some photos and I did at last get some pictures of Eliza Rose heeling and making some progress.  Not easy with the transmitter in one hand and my phone in the other! 
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Laker

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #89 on: September 15, 2021, 09:45:17 pm »

And here's one zoomed in a bit closer.  The rowing boat (or punt) sits on a cradle on the deck just by the companionway.  On calm days I sometimes tow it behind the cutter instead, but it was too breezy on that particular day and it can also be a bit hazardous if there are too many other models sailing nearby.  I once had a bored seagull take a peck at the rowing boat as Eliza Rose towed it past at Portishead lake, but that's another story...
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AndyBiggs

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #90 on: September 16, 2021, 06:43:55 am »

Looks great
Very impressed
Was looking at Sarik’s Katie hull and bought the drawings


Looking back through the thread I wondered if it’s the same as yours ?


Did some web searches but found few references apart from some photos on the Sarik website
Thanks for letting us see your finished model
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Laker

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #91 on: September 16, 2021, 10:13:19 pm »


Hello Andy,

That's an interesting observation about Sarik's 'Katie'.  I took a look on their website and I agree with you, the shape of the GRP hull and the sail plan both look very similar.  Looking at the hull dimensions, they quote 33cm beam which matches my model and 103cm length.  My hull is 102cm long - slightly less but not much.

My hull was supplied by Mike Mayhew of Waverley models in Clevedon, and the GRP is a yellowish colour inside.  Sarik's Katie hull appears to be white.  The name 'Dyarchy' was handwritten inside the hull when I obtained it.  I believe that Mike Mayhew and David Alderton were not on good terms at that time either, so I very much doubt that Mike obtained the GRP hull from David.

I also tried to research 'Dyarchy' at the time I was building this one.  All I could find were these two entries on www.woodenboatvb.com:

(1)  "The "Original" 41 foot Dyarchy was indeed a Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter - built in 1901 at Pill by Cooper.  In 1937, her owner commisioned Laurent Giles to design him a new boat - and the name "Dyarchy" was carried on to this new design, which is one of the finest examples of modern gaff-rigged sailing craft.  The original BCPC was broken up and no longer exists."

(2)  "Most of the original Bristol Channel Pilot cutters were typically in the 49 foot + range on deck. A few smaller boats with transom sterns were built as well. One typical of this smaller version was the 38 foot 'Dyarchy' built by Cooper at Pill in 1901. The boat has long since gone, but you can still buy 'study-plans' for it from the Greenwich Maritime Museum in the UK (they also have a website -try a search). These are only sufficient to build models from though."

Based on this I believed that my model's hull was indeed based on the 'Dyarchy', one of the shorter transom-stern pilot cutters described above.  From the 102cm length of my hull and a scale of 1:12, the original would have been 40' and 2", which lies in the range quoted above for the original.
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AndyBiggs

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #92 on: September 17, 2021, 08:59:56 am »

Thanks
Very informative
I did a search for Waverley models but notice that the most recent reference is in 2018 and wonder if retirement has come ?


I suppose I’m not looking for an accurate reproduction but “in the style” off and influenced by, would be suitable.
Although my Moonbeam is not yet finished, there are thoughts about what next and a traditional working boat appeals. They look like they would sail well and that is an important criteria, as I sail in full size boats. Not really interested in racing and certainly don’t ask me about the latest America’s Cup craft! Nothing on the original J class.


Your contribution here is most appreciated as it answers several questions about how to do things which I was uncertain off. The plans for Katie contain some information but maybe more suitable for the experienced modeller. But feel I may order a hull . I’ll let you know . I’d like to explore how to use a second winch on the jobs.


On a slightly wider note, interesting that there isn’t more interest in building traditional sailing boats. Model boat magazine has limited coverage of sailing and the MYA seems all about racing. I look through the various forums and the Thames barge enthusiasts seem to meet up but in a wider context non racing boats that actually sail seem to be in a minority. Boats need to be seen on the water actually sailing! Apologies to those who build wonderful accurate scale models.


If I’ve missed something I’d be happy to be corrected!


Thanks
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roycv

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #93 on: September 17, 2021, 09:49:59 am »

Hi AndyB....   We think the same I have a pilot boat, passed on to me part started and I would love to get her going.  The scale type yachts and working craft look good on the water as you say. 

I have a Graupner Norderney fishing boat with a full gaff rig and she looks a treat on the water.  Contrary to the kit instructions I use internal ballast and a full rig and she sails a bit like a pig but I am the only one who knows!  ( well maybe you as well now).
I have to reassemble another sailing fishing boat as well but that has been hanging around for a while now. 

Regards
Roy
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roycv

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #94 on: September 17, 2021, 11:48:21 am »

Hi Andy here she is sailing.
Roy
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Laker

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #95 on: September 17, 2021, 05:51:30 pm »

Hello Andy,


Sorry, I should have mentioned above that Waverley Models of Clevedon ceased trading a few years ago.  It was back in 2008 that I bought my 'Dyarchy' hull - quite a while ago now.  The 'Katie' hull that you have found seems almost identical though so I would be very confident that it would make a good model to sail.  I hope you decide to go ahead with it - as you say it would be good to see more scale sailing models on the water these days.  You mentioned the Model Boats magazine and I'm a subscriber too.  Did you see Neville Wade's 4-masted ship models?


I decided against fitting radio control to the foresail (or the jib) but it should be easy enough if you would like to do it.  I think I would use a strong servo with a lever arm for the sheet to control the foresail and/ or jib, rather than a second winch.  The mainsail only needs a winch because the travel is so much greater (about 18" movement on mine) and because the mainsail is so much bigger.


I hope the Moonbeam works out well.  I have seen one sailing at the Woodspring club and it was quite fast, at least in comparison to the scale cutters and barges.
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roycv

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #96 on: September 17, 2021, 06:51:16 pm »

Hi with regards to the foresail which is relatively small I run mine on sliding fixed loop so it moves across when tacking.  On a later yacht I improved on this still using a sliding foresail, but bring the end of the loop to a standard servo with a 2 inch arm and this operates from a 3rd. channel, and tightens or loosens the sail.  This works very well and you can see the increase in speed as it is tightened up and the air flows better on the jib.
Regards
Roy
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AndyBiggs

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #97 on: October 01, 2021, 03:45:26 pm »

Sorry to add to this thread but I have bought a Katie hull from Sarik. It came quickly and they did check if I wanted the drawings but it was easy to explain that I'd already purchased these. It arrived via DHL and was quite well packed, with a piece of expanded polystyrene in the hull to stop it being crushed.


Beam is 13.5 inches and length 40 inches. The moulding looks good, but does not have a smooth gloss finish. Its very slightly rough but this could reflect a wooden surface, once finished. I won't be starting it the near future as there are a couple of other projects to be finished first. But will think about sail control etc. Hopefully there will be enough space so the rudder can be operated directly from a servo, using two "push pull" rods.


Then there is the sails - I'd like to control both the mainsail and headsails. Might think about adding a boom to the inner jib (not totally true to full size boats) and control this with the mainsail winch. The front jib could slide on a loop and the tension of this loop controlled by another servo. The final option would be to use two winch servos, but the one operating the two jibs would need a long travel, so it could let out the windward sheet enough, so the leeward sheet could be pulled tight.


Was interested in the system used in the Flyer design by [size=78%]BOATS (bearospaceindustries.com)[/size] Think some paper/card models will need to be made to see how much travel will be needed. Any thoughts and advice would be welcome.


The hull has quite a large volume and think it will need quite a bit of ballast to load it down to the waterline. The drawings suggest 14lbs to 16lbs of lead, perhaps a test in the bath will be needed. I've got some photos but can't work out how to load them - will have a read (there must be some instructions somewhere) and try again later.
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Laker

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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #98 on: October 01, 2021, 07:34:16 pm »

Hello again Andy and I'm really glad to hear you have gone ahead and bought the Katie hull.  It might be an advantage that the hull isn't glossy smooth, at least in terms of helping the paint to adhere. 
I haven't looked at the Bearospace website for some time and so I hadn't seen the 'Flyer' design.  Its a pretty boat and looks to have a lot in common with these Pilot Cutters, although with a hard-chined hull.
Interesting that you received some guidance on the amount of ballast to use in your hull.  Mine didn't come with any information like that and I had to find out by experiment!  I think their guideline is about right though.  My 'Eliza Rose' has about 15lb of metal ballast (made up of about 5lb of brass bar on the keel and the remainder in lead shot as described on the first page of the thread above).  I only fixed about 11lb or so of it into the hull as I was building it though, not being quite sure of how much weight I would add with the deck etc. and whether I would need to trim it fore and aft.  The remaining 4lb of lead shot is sewn into cloth bags which lie in the bottom of the hull and which can be moved around or even taken out to change the trim.  Using cloth bags for ballast is quite well known in the local clubs here and it works well.   
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Re: Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter Build – ‘Eliza Rose’
« Reply #99 on: October 03, 2021, 04:10:58 am »

Thanks, I’ll look into the idea of the extra bags. It’s suggested for the Moonbeam I’m currently building, which is approaching being finished, as I’m into the rigging now but keep having different ideas about how to attach “things”, the balance between keeping things practical and robust for actual sailing and making it look authentic.


I’ll certainly follow your idea of the brass keel band and also the way you used thin ply around the gunwales. Both excellent pieces of advice. Sorry I haven’t added any photos of the Katie hull, can’t work out how to do it !


Computers !
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