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Author Topic: Majestic class deck blast shields?  (Read 3322 times)

John Foreman

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Majestic class deck blast shields?
« on: January 18, 2021, 09:36:22 pm »

I am building a 1:96 steam powered HMS Victorious, one of the pre- Dreadnought Majestic class. I have the origonal plans and have looked at many photographs, but am still unsure of some details.
My questions and answers may be of interest to others interested in ships of this period.
The blast-plates that are on deck around, what on the drawings is called "the Redoubt", the barbet. They were meant to protect the deck from the blast from the guns.Photographs appear to show the plates are not flush with the planking but slightly above. There are deck fittings that on top of the plate, so the plates are permanant. They are on the origonal drawing so presumably on all ships of the class. Some of photographs show the joints between the plates radiate rather than the plates being rectangular
So my questions: Is there a surface texture like checker plate?
What cosmetic/anti corosion finish did they have?
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raflaunches

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2021, 07:26:19 am »

Hi John


Just been finding my old pictures for my Hannibal/Prince George build and they are checkerplate and they radiate around the barbettes. I’ll find some more pictures of this area as I go along. I cut out sections to fit around the major deck fittings such as the skylights and cowl vents. I laid the checkerplate first and then marked out the radiating section pattern which I created with some micro plastic strut lengths.
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Nick B

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raflaunches

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2021, 07:34:29 am »

Hi John


Haven’t found the pictures yet (they are hidden my 10,000+) but I know that in RA Burt’s book British Battleships 1889 to 1905 have an excellent chapter on the Majestic class and one of the good pictures is of Prince George with her blast plates fitted with Magnificent in the background.
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Nick B

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John Foreman

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2021, 11:59:42 am »

Hello Nick.
I have the Burt book and am always looking at photographs to get the as-built experience as the build build drawings are the start point for authentisity. I planed to make the plates as separate pieces that had been layed like a mosaic onto the deck. I assume, not on top of the wood deck planks as they would have rotted underneath. Any checkering or pattern would be empahsised by the seperate plates. So were these plates rectangular or fan shaped or am I askeing too much?


On your picture you show the two skylights that are the standard Deans item. I recall that mine were the same but over the years mine have gone estray and now I have the opportunity, I have made new ones. The picture (I hope this worked as this is my first attempt here) shows the prototype that is overscale but not tall enough. It has hinges, clamps and other detail. It will be a great bit of eye candy with the bronze bits done it metalic paint. The hinges and clamps are common to a lot of the fittings and can be copied to other parts I am doing.
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raflaunches

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2021, 12:07:10 pm »

Hi John


I do have some pictures of the blast plates completed on my model but for the love of it I can’t find them at the moment. If I can’t find them this evening I’ll take some of the model when I get home on Friday. I went for a radiating design and I also assumed that the planking didn’t sit beneath it for the same reasons. I do have some old photos and postcards which I’ll fetch out and upload so you can see them too.
That’s a beautiful bit of 3D printing for the skylight- I’m looking in to getting a machine soon to do some of my own- just got to get the time to buy, set up and use it! Being RAF sometimes helps and other times I spent too much time away.
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2021, 03:39:36 pm »

They would be a "xxxxx" to lift off and on when maintaining the deck. But then the Navy was very 'Jack tar with a handle' until the fifties and later in some cases.
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Geoff

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2021, 05:10:57 pm »

My belief is that the blast plates were put on top of the deck planking as some pictures show them removed. In the real ships they would have been very thin and almost flush with the wooden planks which is why its hard to see. Also I have not seen joggling of the planks which would have been the case if the planks abutted to the blast plates. Joggling occurs when the snape (angled bit of the plank) is more than 1.5 times the width of the plank. This is why depending on the angle a plank meets the superstructure sometimes its joggled and other times not.


I also read a story where Fisher had them removed on the quarterdeck as they got in the way of dancing! Probably not a genuine statement but its possible they were removed for a high level function.


Cheers


Geoff
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raflaunches

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2021, 05:24:13 pm »

Hi Geoff


Now you mention it I seem to think we had a chat about this, probably a few years back at Warwick. That’s probably why I chose to model my Majestic class like I did because you mentioned that it was incredibly thin material on top of the wooden deck. I think at the time there wasn’t any checkerplate sheet that was thin enough to simulate this effect without it looking over scale. It’s been a while since I was on this project and probably forgot more than I remember!
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Nick B

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John Foreman

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2021, 02:36:05 pm »

Nick, and anyone else for that matter, is welcome to use any of my CAD files. I have just done the big cowl vents, and trunking below. All modesty aside, they are really good.. I will do a post for them. I suppose a listing of what I have done and got would be usefull to anyone.
I now use a Anycubic Photon Zero printer that was a bit over £90.00 from Anycubic. It is much easier to use than my previous printer and the results are adequate. Print size is limited, but it is fine for components, and you can always make something in bits.
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raflaunches

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2021, 02:42:18 pm »

Hi John


Couldn’t find the original pictures (hidden in 10000+ photos on two computers!) so I’ve taken a picture of Prince George blast plates on the quarterdeck. I really need to finish her as I forgot how much I had done!
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Nick B

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Geoff

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2021, 11:54:14 am »

Looking good!


Cheers


Geoff
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raflaunches

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2021, 11:59:13 am »

Thanks Geoff


I’ve got some mojo back after a few months of modellers block- didn’t help being in isolation for a month and a few hard weeks at work trying to fix a squadron of broken Hercs!
Both Prince George and Invincible are back on the builders bench :-))
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Nick B

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Beagle1831

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2021, 04:35:17 pm »

Looking forward to seeing the progress on these Nick !


There are also some photos of the blast plate arrangement in Brian King's book 'Advanced Ship Modelling' if it's any help.


James
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John Foreman

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2021, 11:47:03 am »

Nick,
thank you for taking and putting up the picture. You are further on than me, but it is not a race, so it does not matter that you are winning, - curse you!
Were the blast plates part of the kit? Even after the hours I have spent looking at drawings and photographs I have just found out about the anti blast shields that were fixed around the base of skylights and other deck features. The were meant to stop the wooden deck lifting as the blast wave caused a shock and vacuum. I will not be adding them.
James,
on page 59 of Brian King's 'Advanced Ship Modelling' is the picture you probably refer too. The previous page has one as well, but the plates are just partially shown. He shows them as a domino shape. He has joggled his deck planks around the barbette but not the blast plates, so presumably his interpretation is the plates are on top of the wooden deck, or he got fed up of joggling! If they were done like that, then hole would have had to be cut in the plates to allow deck fittings to stick through. As a model and full size ship they would be easier to make like small and rectangular.
So we have examples of them being done like that and as radial plates. It is possible that both methods were used on the different ships in the class so unless anyone comes up with a photo showing what Victorious was like I can choose to do it either way.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2021, 11:58:15 am »

Brian never cut corners, he always got it as right as he possibly could. He loved explaining the detail of his models and provided all the research to us judges at the Model Engineer Exhibition.

Colin
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raflaunches

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2021, 02:41:34 pm »

Hi John


I may have a definite answer for us-
Two different sources of photos- The Royal Navy at Malta Vol 1 by Richard Ellis and Ben Warlow,  and The Royal Navy in Old Photographs by Wilfrid Pym Trotter- show rectangular blast plates and not radiating ones. The picture with two sailors in white uniforms are of HMS Revenge which was a member of the previous class of battleship. Whilst the second is of an un-named battleship but is of one of the same era. I’ll email you the bigger full sized pictures as the the forum only allows 800k pictures to be uploaded.
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Nick B

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raflaunches

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2021, 03:05:58 pm »

This is the picture James is referring to-

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Nick B

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John Foreman

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2021, 03:32:36 pm »

Nick has sent me a couple of pictures directly, that show two views of the anti blast plates. They both show plates that are not cut or fitted in a radial pattern. The long edges run fore and aft. They both are not joggled into the deck planking and appear to be on top. This will save some time making and laying them.
In one the width is about 3+ foot and the length about nine or ten foot. There is a pattern of squares of about an inch square set on an angle of about 30 degrees. A hole is cut for for a circular something-or-other that would be flush with the planking.
The other picture of the Revenge is less clear. The plates are about 4 or 5 foot wide and run the full length fore-and-aft of the shield. I cannot see a pattern.
I am thinking I may design and print plates 3 X 10 with the chequer pattern and cut them to shape afterwards. Cut holes for any flush deck fittings like the  round cover or deck light that is shown, and stick them down on the sub deck.. Then butt the deck planking up against them. Anything that would stick through will just go on top with height adjusted as the plates look about 1/2 inch thick. So little it is probably not necessary. I deck with sticky backed wood that I cut into planking strips.
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raflaunches

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2021, 06:40:10 pm »

A weird double picture that I think was for special viewer which turned it into a 3D image.
It’s of HMS Prince George and the blast plates must be flush against each other as it’s not easily visible to see the separations.
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Nick B

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John Foreman

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2021, 10:49:25 pm »

On doing some CAD and comparing it to the photograph it looks like the angle of the checker plate is 20 rather than 30 degrees. I will do a test and see how it comes out.
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John Foreman

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2021, 11:17:15 pm »

Nick,
that is an interesting stereo picture of the quarterdeck. Full of useful details of how it was. The blast plate(s) is/are not flush with the deck as the shadow changes as you follow it round.  An immediate thing I notice is the open skylight near the cowl ventilator at the stern. It looks like the open cover is one peace while it the ships plans it is three pieces. I modelled and printed it in three so will have to redo the file and print it again. Probably no one would notice, but now I have I have to do it right.
Another interesting thing is just forward of that. The capstan either has a cover or it looks like it has rope wound round it to make a big cheese. And another thing I just got while looking at the plans. They show a vent forward of the capstan the the ctr. line. In the side elevation the vent is shown as a cowl vent, while the photo shows a rectangular arrangement with a circular bit on top that is set starboard.
A picture to add to my reference file.
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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2021, 02:13:51 am »

It is a quizical image  :o


A & B both appear as pairs of 1 piece Lids [P&S] over 2 pain glass skylights [in line with the vessel axis]


Could C & D be Jipsy [or idler] drums covered with the Top Hat?


E appears to have the same Top Hat as C & D, however has a different construction in the base footprint


F appears to be the main Capstain......I cannot fathom   {-) what the open mesh or open weave cover is?


The skylight athwart the ship just below the Turrent barrel, appears to be the same construction as the aft 2 sets ...ie., a 1 piece lids over 2 pain glass skylights..the actual Lid/s for this is not well viewed

Are these Lids, the components you are terming as the Blast Doors?.......if this is the case, the Lids are also a waterproof essential, as the Majestic Class could find themselves with a very wet Quater Deck in anything but a Mill Pond sea

Derek
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John Foreman

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2021, 10:59:18 am »

Derek,
these old pictures are great and I have spent many the happy hour trying to work out what is what. I think you are correct with most of it.
A. & B. They are identical to each other on the plans, but different to all the other skylights shown. Probably upgraded as a pair.
C. & D. The position on the plan has “Riding Bits” here. These do not look like them. Fancy covers?
E. As I previously wrote, this is different from the plan. I wonder if the Cowl ventilator base that is on the plan has been moved to the starboard and an escape hatch incorporated as part of the base. This was for the steam capstan motor.
F. The capstan beehive. yes?
The lids – blast doors- would serve both functions.
I wonder if the answer is they are preparing the Q. deck for a social event. Awning stanchions are going up. Covers are making things look tidly and F would make a clean seat. The crew and getting boats in the water ready to bring the ladies aboard.
The preparations that were made for coaling ship are usually tarps’ thrown over stuff. “F” being admired by an officer, would be be a b. to clean afterwards.
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Geoff

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2021, 05:32:42 pm »

John,


I just caught that you are planning to make this steam powered. I have Canopus 1899 to 1/96 scale which is also steam powered and uses a Cheddar Models Puffin unit and Mk 1 boiler. Top speed is a gently walk which is just about right - there is a video on youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrNr1WZ7yEk


Single engine geared 1 to 1 to turn two 4 blade 58mm props which gives me 30 mins max sailing before I run out of water. At 30 mins and 30 seconds it stops so I tend to run for 25 mins or so and bring her back in!


The Mk 1 and 2 boilers are identical in size but the funnels are at opposite ends. The Mk 1 is return flue whereas the Mk 2 is straight through and up the funnel as a result the water capacity is about 40% greater. I have the Mk 2 boiler in a different model and it raises steam just fine.


I use a larger oil separator which just touches the gas container so provides gentle heating to keep the gas tank warm.


I made all the ventilators work but had to open up some of the main deck gun ports to ensure enough fresh air to get to the burner. A computer fan may be a better solution.


Hope this kelps and look forwards to your progress


Cheers


Geoff
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John Foreman

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Re: Majestic class deck blast shields?
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2021, 06:12:27 pm »

Geoff,
we have met at Child Beal years ago where I saw Canopus and I think it had your firing guns in an early form then. Brass tubes loaded with gun-cotten, I think.
I have basically the same as you but X 2. It is hugely overpowered but I keep the speed down. I am not sure of the boiler. It is a Cheddar one 7" X 4" with a return flue. I have a water feed pump and attenuation[/size] valve to save gas. I did run it with scale props but switched to lovely modern ones from the
[/size]Prop Shop.
[/size]I am wondering if it will be simpler if I have it electric powered to save the trouble and cost of boiler testing, but as you know, the steam always gets attention and you do not have to have a smoke generator!
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