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[clivef]

Hello. My name is Clive. 69 years old. Resident in Monchengladbach, Germany. Avid boat/ship modeller, but now with 'retirement time and patience'. Fleet of 8 mixed vessels. Presently building Billings African Queen - almost complete. Deciding on next build, possibly my 20 year old still packaged Loyal fleet tender, probably Deans Dreadnought. I have a completed HMS Kent at 1:96, completed in 2020, started in 1973 when I was a student. I also completed Deans HMS Mohawk in 2020. And a WW1 battleship would complete the WW1 destroyer, cruiser, battleship, all at 1:96, collection. I am also considering 4 Kents - the sailing 1800s HMS Kent, WW! Kent, WW2 Kent and the post-war Kent. Has anyone ever built a series of same name ships?  Best wishes!

[SteamboatPhil]

Welcome to the forum, you will find many friends and help here 

[raflaunches]

Welcome to the forum Clive


I have built a Deans Dreadnought a few years back and enjoyed it, WW1 and pre-WW1 is my favourite era as it is so radically different to now and the engineering jumps made were phenomenal.
You’re not the only one thinking about a series of ships with the same name, I had a similar thought to represent HMS Protector or HMS Coventry but never got passed the thinking phase! However Kent would be an excellent choice as there are quite a few Kent’s to choose to build whilst my options for mine were either two or three!
I’ll look forward to your model making builds in the near future.

[Geoff]

Yes, welcome to the board. There are quite a few of us who love WW 1 warships. At 1/96 scale I have Neptune 1918, Canopus 1899, Lord Nelson 1908, Iron Duke 1916 and Invincible 1914 built in that border over quite a few years. There are blogs on here for the last two.


I'm getting older now so may have to make smaller models besides I've run out of space!



Have you though of just getting the Dreadnought hull from Mouldeans and converting it to Bellerophon - same as Dreadnought but with two big tripods and in my opinion a better looking ship.


Many years ago I recall a modeler who exhibited the Vanguard models all at 1/96 scale - it made a very nice exhibition.



We all look forwards to some pictures!


Cheers


Geoff

[clivef]

Hello Geoff, Phil and Nick B
Thanks for your comments! How refreshing to find this site and get replies. I feel very happy but also alone in my workshop.
Very nice to realise that there are those out there who are most enthusiastic about the WW1 era. Geoff - your idea about building HMS Bellerophon has filled me with enthusiasm for doing just this. Yes, Dreadnought is 'significant' but not particularly 'pretty'. However, would it not be better/easier for me to buy the full Dreadnought kit, rather then just the hull, and then convert? I am a very average modeller without the 'engineering(?)' background that many model makers seem to have! In many ways a beginner,.
One aspect of those early battleships that fascinates me is the pronounced tumblehome. So about a year ago I looked around for an idea for a new build, with the idea (not original, I know) of building something I have never seen a model of before..... an 'ugly WW1 era duckling'....... it was to build the French Jaureguiberry. She has an unbelievable tumblehome. She reflects everything I like about the era, slow, heavy, inefficient, dirty steamer, primitive, seemingly top-heavy and clearly useless in a fight with contemporary/later ships(?)  I looked around for plans and details. Wasn't very successful, apart from the simple plans and details immediately available online. I am still interested in a 1:96 model. How would I go about finding plans to build Jaureguiberry from? Not sure if the fotos and plans online would suffice. Please give me your thoughts. I am tending towards Bellerophon, but that Jaureuiberry idea fascinates me, too.
Best wishes
Clive

[raflaunches]

Hi Clive


Bellerophon is a lovely looking vessel- Ron Kingdon made a version for Ron Dean a couple of years ago and it looks like an improved Dreadnought. I think this model now sits in Ron Deans gallery waiting to be kitted but shows what can be done with a Dreadnought kit. My Invincible differed to Geoff’s as I used a modified Dreadnought hull from Deans Marine whilst Geoff’s is fully scratch built.
Regarding Jaureuiberry I believe that TonyH was considering building one a few years back and might have ideas on where to get plans- he had built a few French pre-Dreadnought and WW1 era vessels- I have his rather dainty Brosse A Dents (Toothbrush) or her proper name ‘Marriott’ submarine.

[Colin Bishop]

There is a very interesting You Tube video on the French 'fierce face' ships:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ygXLnRAm-A

The Russians copied the tumblehome design but found at Tsushima that it made the ship quickly unstable if it suffered underwater damage as buoyancy quickly decreased.

This instability was also apparent when the French battleship Bouvet capsized rapidly after striking a mine in WW1 at the Dardanelles:

http://www.shipstab.org/files/Proceedings/ISSW/ISSW_2014_Kuala_Lumpur_Malaysia/Papers/ISSW_2014_s3-p05.pdf

There are two photos showing the sinking, this is one:

https://www.shutterstock.com/editorial/image-editorial/various-3877585a

The late Brian King built an award winning model of Bouvet, see below.

Colin

[tonyH]

Full set of Jaureguiberry plans, along with loads of other ones, are on Dreadnought Project http://dreadnoughtproject.org/French%20Warship%20Plans/
All original builders plans so will mean that they won't show any variations later but they do include full main weapons drawings etc. and some of them are real works of art. I contemplated JB and even made the masters for the main turrets.
One thing I found very useful was a small model of Borodino from Zvezda because it followed the same sort of structure to the upperworks that you could carry in your mind. They are so different so I found it easier to visualise the build.
Good Luck in whatever you chose because there is a wealth of info in the French plans.
TonyH

[dpbarry]

Welcome Clive. No doubt you will be able to provide valuable nuggets of information.

Enjoy the craic - no, not that one. The  Laughter version. 

Declan

[clivef]

Colin, Tony and Nick
Thanks for your information  and suggestions. What a fantastic resource that list of plants for French warships is! I have copied and intend to upscale the plans of Jaureguiberry to 1.98 and begin building the hull. Any suggestions before I begin doing this would be welcome, although it seems both complicated and straightforward to build a hull like this - with that tumblehome. I am building a scratch hull this way for the first time. Years ago many built 'bread and butter', as I did, but I will form and plank Jaureguiberry. Thank you for those brilliant fotos - they will be very useful, I will add them to those already collected. Will put up photos later.
Best wishes
Clive

[tonyH]

Good Luck with JB. The plans are superb and I've made use of them for a cruiser (Descartes) a destroyer (Arquebuse) and a spar torpedo boat.The upperworks I mentioned took me ages to get my head around and in the end I realised that it was almost like a village green with the buildings surrounding the square. Some village!All you've got to sort out is the dense black smoke when she's at full vitesse!
Tony

[Geoff]

In general for plank on frame I would use 3mm or 4mm obechi for the planks as its quite strong enough and gives room for sanding and filling to shape. Then paint in epoxy resin sand and then use thin fiberglass and more epoxy resin. On ID and Invincible I used this approach and it worked well. If required you can then plate the hull with plastic card - I tend to do the out-strakes only and punch holes in plates for portholes before fitting.


The large tumblehome was principally a weight saving measure. The main armor belt was thick but shallow which made the ships vulnerable to flooding above the protective deck and a tendency to capsize.


There is a very excellent book on French Battleships of WW1 by John Jordan & Phillippe Caresse which starts with the early pre-dreadnoughts and goes through to the unbuilt Normandie class starts with Hoche and includes small plans of Jaureguiberry. Its a very good book with lots of pictures.


Great looking ships and I think would make excellent and unusual models. Several times I have felt like doing a Russian battleship Tsarevich!


Good luck


Geoff

[roycv]

Hello clivef.  I know where you are in MGB.  Many years ago I was in the RAF in Geilenkirchen and on odd occasions would visit but most times I would go into Aachen.  This was 1957 - 1960.  I had enough German to get by.

I found a small hobby shop I think in the Kleine Koln Strasse near the church and would visit and buy.  We had very favourable exchange rates then so 12 marks to the pound.  Still have the Graupner plans plus a few other items.

The last time I was at MGB was just a touch down when we had a local air service run by Debonaire with HS 146's lovely aircraft.  But I was on my way to Munich to visit my son who lived there, and then Meiling, for 10 years.  I mastered the art of buying a ticket on the railways as well, no mean feet!  That would be 1992 til 2004.
In 1995 I did a Business German course at the first level; so now have an NVC 1.  My son's girl friend used to stand behind me in the queue while I bought vegetables etc.  Most of it has gone through not using it.  He had a yacht and shared a 21 foot catamaran and sailed on the Amer See I used to always go out with him as crew.  Great times!

He still owns the house in Meiling let out while he now lives in Australia.  He is about to marry the German lass from all those years ago and he speaks the language very easily.
All the best
Roy

[clivef]

Hello Roycv
Yes. There seem to be so many people I meet who spent some time or had links with servicemen and women who lived in and around Monchengladbach. I moved to Germany in 1986 and lived in Dortmund and then Bonn before moving to Monchengladbach. While in Dortmund and Bonn, I listened to BFBS radio and realised what a large contingent lived in Monchengladbach. I moved to MGB in 2015 when I retired and am always interested to see the remains of the Nato Headquarters at Rheindalen and the airfield at Wildenrath. The old army golf club is still in action there, I am considering joining if my health keeps up and my weight stays down. I still find evidence of the 'married quarters' architecture in villages such as Wickrath and Wegberg and in Monchengladbach in the Stadtgarten area. Its strange in a way - I have arrived but they have all gone - a long time ago now - 1995, I think. People remember the soldiers and many Germans worked at the Rheindalen Headquarters - my new partners Father worked there for many years and was very happy there. The NATO Headquarters is empty and basically a ruin. The large hospital (where my brother was born in 1959) is being demolished.
Best wishes
Clive

[clivef]

TonyH and Geoff
Thanks again for the comments and suggestions. Will put them to good use. Especially the hull construction advice. Regarding the smoke - there is a photo that shows Jauregueberry steaming fast(?) making a huge wake and masses of smoke. The hull was probably (certainly) very inefficient. Was it? I'm not sure. It would be interesting to know. Any ideas? The tumblehome was above water so any effect on the way the ship steamed through the water would have been 'indirect'. Interesting that the propellors were so far aft of the hull.
Best wishes
Clivef

[Geoff]

Clivef,


I know the picture and it looks great! One thing to consider is that coal powered ships produced huge amounts of smoke when stoking the boilers to increase speed but the smoke fell off a lot once speed had been achieved. I think hull efficiency wasn't too bad up to about 18 knots which seems to be a critical speed as if you want to go faster hydrodynamics really comes into play.


Iron Duke made 21 knots max with 29,000 hp but Invincible which is a smaller ship made 26 knots max and needed 41,000 hp so and extra 40% for 5 knots extra. Hood I think was over 100,000 hp to get to 30 knots. The increase in hp is very significant and was another reason to switch to turbines which could generate the required power.


Most pre-dreadnoughts had their props far aft which worked fine. As speeds increased hull length increased and the props were much less aft to give better hull lines and hydrodynamic flow.


I love the pre-dreadnoughts as much as I love the ww1 Dreadnoughts! Great looking ships and models.


Cheers


Geoff

[roycv]

Hi Clive you have a PM!  Just check your messages at the top of the screen when you next come on-line to find it.
Roy