Topic: electrical question re tripping mains (Read 2701 times)

roycv · « **on:** February 08, 2021, 01:44:26 pm »

Hi all we have just had smart meters installed. I now find the feed to my garage trips out. This also has an RSD controlled extension cable that goes to my workshop. Maximum load is 500 watts with heater on, otherwise just lighting etc.

I isloated the workshop by unplugging it, and it does not trip. The workshop is about 50 feet away from the outlet in the garage. The wiring is 13 amp flexible cable. The oil filled radiator in the workshop is set to come on when temperature falls below 5 or 6 centigrade. It is possible the trip happens when the heater comes on, I do not know.
But I have been in the shed and switched the heater on and off without any problem.

I reconnected the shed and it is OK but sometime later the house trip goes. I reset the trip in the house and the power goes on in the shed. So the RSD trip in the garage wiring to the shed did not trip out.

This has all been working for the last 10 years without any problems.

Are there any issues with the new type electricity meters?
My next move was to eliminate the RSD in the wiring to the shed but not sure this will be effective.
I welcome any ideas on what is wrong.

Best regards
Roy

T888 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2021, 01:59:43 pm »

Hi Roy,
Not an electric expert, but have you tried the heater on one of the house socket to see if it trips when it come on via the thermostat if the RCD trips then I’d say there a fault on the heater. Then do the same with extension lead with another appliance you know is ok.

Subculture · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2021, 02:00:04 pm »

This makes interesting reading.

https://communities.theiet.org/discussions/viewtopic/1037/23661#forums-view-topic

Dixie212 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2021, 02:06:10 pm »

Hi,
I have heard instances where this was caused by the smart meter when it transmits data back to base.
Apparently some models have a transceiver box that can be positioned away from any RCD that it may trip. Have a look and see if that is a possibility.
Innes

david48 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 08, 2021, 02:12:40 pm »

Industrial Extension Leads

Hi plastic have a look here all good info
David

roycv · « **Reply #5 on:** February 08, 2021, 02:28:19 pm »

Hi all thanks for the response.
T888 I did say in my post that I had turned it on and off without problem while in the workshop.

Sub culture thanks for that.My situation is a bit odd! On the day of installation I was told that other comms parts needed fitting. The following day I received an email that my electricity and gas provider had ceased trading!
As far as I know there is no comms connection, but I suppose it does not mean it is not trying!

David
I wondered if I had a cable insulation failure but put it to one side as it had all run for many years and it would have been too much of a coincidence. I did trace its path and there did not seem to be anything obvious. I would have expected its own RSD to trip if there was.
I will contact the meter installers to see if they have information on RSD's and tripping.
Regards
Roy

Stan · « **Reply #6 on:** February 08, 2021, 02:50:00 pm »

HI Roy Contacting your energy supplier may not pay dividends any internal faults are your responsibility. Just be aware under current regulations what you can can do on electrical installations is very limited. Consult a qualified electrician to sort out your problem.

Stan

roycv · « **Reply #7 on:** February 08, 2021, 03:34:07 pm »

Hi Stan I was going to contact the meter installers. They have to make a return visit anyway. The energy providers have ceased trading.
regards
Roy

grendel · « **Reply #8 on:** February 08, 2021, 05:54:20 pm »

there seem to be a lot of hits when you google smart meter trips rcd, it seems the rf when the meter tries to communicate to base causes the trip, have you got a new supplier yet, you could always ask them to come and fit a normal meter as the smart meter fitted is causing spurious supply outages.

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2021, 07:31:18 pm »

This is an interesting thread. We haven't had smart meters installed yet but I will bear what has been said when the time comes. A really useful 'heads up'.

Colin

Capt Podge · « **Reply #10 on:** February 08, 2021, 08:07:58 pm »

After reading all the replies I would say the 'not-so-smart' meter is causing tripping. Inform the installer, if you haven't already done so, and get them to put it right.

grendel · « **Reply #11 on:** February 08, 2021, 08:10:11 pm »

until all the electricity suppliers agree on a meter they can all read, I am afraid I will be waiting, at the moment changing suppliers can mean they have to come and fit a new meter, as they dont all run compatible systems.

Colin Bishop · « **Reply #12 on:** February 08, 2021, 08:19:41 pm »

Grendel,

I think you will find that when changing suppliers they cannot legally compel you to fit a smart meter athough they give you the impression thay can. I had a run in with Eon over this and they backed down although I am with Octopus now and they are not so pushy.

Colin

SteamboatPhil · « **Reply #13 on:** February 08, 2021, 09:13:30 pm »

Roy
Which RCD breaker is tripping, is it on the main incoming or just in your mains box..

john44 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 08, 2021, 09:14:04 pm »

Energy suppliers can’t fit a smart meter at my home they haven’t got the technology to transmit a signal
from my cellar mounted electric meter to my gas meter above ground more than 10 metres away.
So I will keep my normal meter till they have the proper equipment for it to be read.
I will not be moving anything for their benefit.

John

grendel · « **Reply #15 on:** February 08, 2021, 11:08:36 pm »

Quote from: Colin Bishop on February 08, 2021, 08:19:41 pm

Grendel,

I think you will find that when changing suppliers they cannot legally compel you to fit a smart meter athough they give you the impression thay can. I had a run in with Eon over this and they backed down although I am with Octopus now and they are not so pushy.

Colin

Thanks Colin, yes I did know this, but if you have had a smart meter previously fitted they cannot all access the systems used to read that meter, as they use incompatible systems, they have to replace the existing smart meter with one they can read.- or as you rightly state, you can ask for a traditional meter to be fitted. I was only put on a smart meter for my water because the meter was outside of my property.
My sister was put on a smart meter for water, despite having been told that as its a shared main and the tee was under her property it couldnt be done, the workmen ignored this and fitted one anyway, and they had to come back and remove it, because they could not meter two properties on a shared main accurately, ie there was no way to determine how much each property was using, so it has to be calculated the old way.

roycv · « **Reply #16 on:** February 08, 2021, 11:59:21 pm »

Hi grendal I think perhaps you have some old information there and thinking of the Mk. 1 meters. The Mk.2 meters can change the number they respond to. Someone told me it was a sim card as in mobile phones.

Hi Steamboat, we (St. Albans MES) used to have adjoining exhibition positions at Ally Pally.
The trip that goes is on the consumer unit in my house, even though the RCD to my shed does not trip. It is a daily occurance. I have one more check to make and that is to unplug the shed and plug in the extension lead to my band saw. This should isolate one or the other. Have another read of my two original posts the detail is in there.

When I have done the above I will contact the installers. They are a company called Lowri Beck. Their customer service system was very good so no quibbles with them.
Best regards
Roy

HMS Invisible · « **Reply #17 on:** February 09, 2021, 12:22:38 am »

Quote from: roycv on February 08, 2021, 01:44:26 pm

Hi all we have just had smart meters installed. I now find the feed to my garage trips out. This also has an RSD controlled extension cable that goes to my workshop. Maximum load is 500 watts with heater on, otherwise just lighting etc.

I isloated the workshop by unplugging it, and it does not trip. The workshop is about 50 feet away from the outlet in the garage. The wiring is 13 amp flexible cable. The oil filled radiator in the workshop is set to come on when temperature falls below 5 or 6 centigrade. It is possible the trip happens when the heater comes on, I do not know.
But I have been in the shed and switched the heater on and off without any problem.

I reconnected the shed and it is OK but sometime later the house trip goes. I reset the trip in the house and the power goes on in the shed. So the RSD trip in the garage wiring to the shed did not trip out.

This has all been working for the last 10 years without any problems.

Are there any issues with the new type electricity meters?
My next move was to eliminate the RSD in the wiring to the shed but not sure this will be effective.
I welcome any ideas on what is wrong.

Best regards
Roy

Look up polarization index test and condensation in the morning (which destroyed coal board high voltage equipment if switched off).When an old and failing heater element has been off for a while ( first thing in the morning) the insulation can be conductive enough to trip a sensitive rcd. That event reduces conductivity such that it doesn't trip if powered up soon after.
The unsafe diagnostic, where you can't operate or touch the heater, is to disconnect the earth and wait for the (smart) meter to trigger it.
So test the heater element.

david48 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 09, 2021, 10:26:52 am »

I get nuisance tripping in my shed from my Record sawdust vac only when I turn it off . I is back generated as the motor slows down I think it is EMF I live with it, might be wrong but if I change the trip to a different type B to C or C to B that will cure it ,Not 100% on this so will leave it until the next time the sparky drops by.
David

roycv · « **Reply #19 on:** February 09, 2021, 10:46:31 am »

Hi micro... the heater is not an ancient one, it is modern but is 5 or 6 years old. It was replaced with a more powerful one.

It is a 500 watt oil filled radiator and quite safe to use. I checked it over before it went on duty in my workshop. which is dry insulated and double glazed. Not a hint of condesation anywhere. When warm a pleasant place to be even with the snow on the roof.

regards
Roy

HMS Invisible · « **Reply #20 on:** February 09, 2021, 11:02:23 am »

Hi roycv,If you keep having mysterious and undiagnosed trip events I would consider the heater, not the (smart) meter, as the culprit until tests prove what it is the cause.
The 50 ft cable is also a factor.

roycv · « **Reply #21 on:** February 09, 2021, 11:34:54 am »

Hi all, thank you very much for your interest and responses. It is on-going as an investigation so nothing yet is showing as causing the problem.
Micro...I have been in the workshop and repeatedly turned the heater on and off without tripping. Also the RCD for the workshop does not trip when the consumer unit one does.

However their seems to be evidence on-line that this is not an unknown problem with the installation of new smart meters.
When at work I used to do complex investigations into computer peripheral failures in companies so used to a bit of logic.

I am thinking that I need to review what I think are facts, as I do not know what time and which event causes the consumer unit trips. Last night nothing tripped! The workshop was warm so must have been on and off all night.
I will keep you informed as to the outcome. The truth is out there some where!

Kind Regards
Roy

HMS Invisible · « **Reply #22 on:** February 09, 2021, 01:14:05 pm »

Quote from: roycv on February 09, 2021, 11:34:54 am

Hi all, thank you very much for your interest and responses. It is on-going as an investigation so nothing yet is showing as causing the problem.
Micro...I have been in the workshop and repeatedly turned the heater on and off without tripping. Also the RCD for the workshop does not trip when the consumer unit one does.

However their seems to be evidence on-line that this is not an unknown problem with the installation of new smart meters.
When at work I used to do complex investigations into computer peripheral failures in companies so used to a bit of logic.
...

Hi Roy,I hear you on new heater, & absence of trips turning it on/off & problems arose only after the new smart meter.
To me, the weight of evidence is on the heater on the end of a long trailing extension nuisance tripping a sensitive rcd.
That's where to start digging.

Stan · « **Reply #23 on:** February 09, 2021, 02:27:20 pm »

Hi guys have been watching this and have ask how many of your are qualified electricians? The information you have given may help to solve the problem but we are not talking about low voltage we are trying to find a fault on mains electric which can kill. Surely the use of a electrician with all the proper test equipment would be the correct way to proceed. Please do not shoot me down with this reply.

john44 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 09, 2021, 03:09:14 pm »

Hi as Stan says please contact a qualified electrician. As a retired electrical / mechanical engineer I cannot stress
the importance of using a tradesman with sorting out these types of faults, before using extension leads have the job
properly rewired to the up to date wiring regs. If your shed burns down an insurance company won’t pay you a penny.
An extension lead is not the way to go.if you don’t like my comment I’m sorry but diy electricians worry me.

John

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Author Topic: electrical question re tripping mains (Read 2701 times)