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Author Topic: 'Four Ways' cargo ship  (Read 7259 times)

Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2021, 11:34:28 pm »

It was interesting to see how many different manufacturers there were.
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2021, 11:34:50 pm »

I drew up a crane body based on a ruston bucyrus rb 22, almost scale, but I thought it looked a bit small for my purposes so I enlarged it a bit.
 I also drew up a larger boom with some details, and pinned them together for a visual test on deck, I liked the look, so I started making the main girders from 1/32 balsa and 1mm carbon rod. I made 4 of the 12 that I need. They sure are a bit fiddly to make. I can sand them to exact widths now they are a bit stronger. Not much though.
  I am going to make 1/32 ply joining plates, a pair for each join. 1/32 and 1/16 ply inserts will reinforce the girders at the joins, boom attachment and boom end.
 It is going to take a while but I can see how good it will look from the cardboard cutout, so I will keep going.
 I had hoped to have it operational, but I will see how practical that turns out to be, given the size of it.
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2021, 11:18:52 pm »

I made a jig to build my girders, balsa covered with sellotape. It was much easier to make them this way. I am going to use it when I build the individual boom sections. It will (hopefully) ensure the sections are square and the sizes they are supposed to be before I add cross braces.
 I imagine it will end up quite strong, the carbon contributing a fair bit.
 I am going to try my hardest to get it operational, I like a challenge. There isnt room inside the cab unit for any motors strong enough, these will go below deck. I have built in my top ballrace, from there down has still to be fully worked out, I will refine it as I do more of the cab and boom. I am liking this little side project, it should turn out quite good.
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2021, 06:28:54 pm »

The jig worked really well for building the boom sections, I made the parallel section first, then moved on to the lower section then did the tip section last.
 I cut out 1/32 ply join plates, 2 per join, glued them together then glued one boom section on, let it set, then aligned the next section and glued it. I did this at the next join as well, ending up with a fairly straight boom.
 Still a good few bits to go on the boom, the pulleys I am planning on using are 2g each, and I need to use quite a few of them, all extra weight far out on the boom. Shouldnt really be a problem, the  boom is pretty light so far.
 It is also really strong for its weight, I gave it a 'much more than expected load' type of test, totally solid, no creaking, cracking or movement.
 I have also made a start on the cab, having worked out how I was going to proceed. The main bits are cut out, 4mm ply base, 1/16 ply sides/uprights, 1/32 ply sliding door.
 I decided the final positions of the pulleys in the cab, I glued the 2 pairs of uprights together and drilled holes for the pulley shafts and boom,  glued the uprights to the base, using the boom for correct spacing and checking to make sure it looked square.
 I added the pulley mount on the top section of the boom, I might have to compromise a bit here as I only have enough pulleys to rig it in a simplified form, (which will still work but be slightly less powerfull)
 I imagine it would still be plenty for my purposes. I would like to rig it the way I was hoping to, so I will probably buy some more pulleys online. I still have lots of other things to do until I need more pulleys.
 I am quite happy with the way it looks so far, it works the way it should, I have only been pulling the thread by hand, once I get some motors and gearboxes worked out I will be very happy.
 Long way to go before that happens, I need to make a platform below the deck/hatch to take the 3 motors and gearboxes , one for rotation, one for boom raising and another for hoisting.
 I have still to add braces to the bearing where it fits into the hatch, and I will probably epoxy the bearing in there. The motor tray underneath will be attached to my central 12mm alloy tube, so that the motors rotate with the crane. I may even use a separate radio system and battery mounted on the tray so there are no wires coming off it , giving continuous rotation without worrying about wires twisting up, not sure yet though, will see how things progress.
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2021, 02:11:41 pm »

A test fitting with cables and pulleys, still short of 5 pulleys but rather than try and find and buy them, I will think of something cheaper.

 I made up the collar around the bearing, adds a bit more detail.

 I also started painting the cab, I only did as much as I needed to allow my sliding door to be fitted and construction finished. I will finish painting it later.
 
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2021, 02:54:18 pm »

More done on the crane, boom has had some extra bracing on the top pulley housing, some 'angle iron' added around the front of the boom and lifting points added to the individual boom sections. I also ran superglue down each inside corner of the sections to make sure the carbon rods are well bonded to everything else.
 Once this had thoroughly set, I started painting the boom, it took a while, and I only painted the outside of it, I will need to hunt for a thinner brush to get through the bracing.
 The pulley block has had a balancing jig made and the required amount of lead added to the rear 'shelf'.
 The weight of the brass pulley was pulling down on the boom cables and causing them to slip off the pulley. Balancing it has cured this and it follows the angle of the cables easily.
 My sliding door works well, once the paint had dried, I was able to fit the door then glue the curved rear wall on, this keeps the door in place. The cab roof and other roof sections were then glued in place. Once it was all sanded nicely it got a further 2 coats of paint on top of what I had already done.
 I have made up dummy counterweights from balsa, I will have a go at casting some lead weights using a balsa one to make a mould in sand. If the weights dont turn out very good, I can fit a decent amount of sheet lead under the rear of the counterweight 'shelf'? area and just use the balsa dummy weights.
 The pivot pins I am using are from a pin art sculpture that had been dropped and broken, I now have hundreds of these handy little pins.
 The crane has used up a good few of them, recycling at its best.
 I came up with a solution for my pulley shortage, cost me washers.....
 more on this in next update.
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2021, 05:09:53 pm »

Having looked online, the closest thing I could find to the pulleys I already had were meccano ones, pre war vintage, no less. £10 plus postage for the 5 that I needed. And the hole in the middle was too big for my purposes.
 I decided to try making my own pulleys, so out with my tins of brass nuts, bolts and washers. I had 1/2 inch diameter washers for the outsides and smaller ones for the centre, my other pulleys are 12mm, so close enough for me. Two pieces of brass tubing (one inside the other) join them all and bring the centre hole down in size a bit. I didnt have any suitable tubing to take the hole to the size of my pivot pins, but a bit of plastic tubing from an older style cotton bud  fits nicely. I managed to stash a bundle before they changed to paper. The washers were soldered to the brass tubes using flux between them and the v groove was made with a file while spinning the pulley in a cordless drill. Once this had been done, the pulley was parted off from the tubes with a junior hacksaw while spinning it. Final job was to sand both sides flat with a flat file and emery paper taped to a board.
 Turned out not bad for home made. Very pleased. And it saved digging my lathe out of deep storage. If the washer style ones hadnt worked I could have done them that way.
I made four pulleys and a winch drum which is just another pulley/roller guide for the winch cable. Both it and the boom hoist cable will go down through the central mounting tube.
 I have selected the motors and gearboxes I am going to use. I will be using speed controls on them all for fine control.
 I finished painting the boom, a coat inside and another coat on the outside. Thats the boom pretty much finished. I will refit all of the pulleys ready for mounting to the cab when it is finished.
 I had to make another 2 pulleys to route the cables from the central tube end under the deck towards the winch motors. I may have to add another 2 to get my winches orientated on my winch plate which will rotate with the crane, but under the deck.
 I am working it out as I go along, I was going to do the rotating bit circular but there wouldnt be enough room for the winches. It will have to be rectangular, not really a problem as the space under the deck is completely clear. Just need to make sure it is lined up before removing the hatch/crane assembly.
 I have made a cardboard template of the area I have under the hatch, allowing for the hatch coamings. I have been placing the winches on this to try different layouts and think about potential problems.
 Another thing that has been getting a lot of thought is the crane rotation motor and gear, (from a friends dead helicopter) I am using a servo with the output gear removed and the next gear exposed by cutting away the servo casing, this matched the teeth on the heli gear nicely. But.... It has to sit vertically and is 45mm high, meaning my winch plate may have to go below this height. Its hard to explain when I haven't worked it all out myself. I have 50mm below the rotation servo and the winches are under 30mm high so shouldnt be hard to arrange something.
 The bottom bearing for the crane tube has to be secured too, not sure on this either but plenty of space in the hold, whatever I decide. Do I build a frame attached to the hatch for this, or attach the bearing to the bottom of the hold? I will be cutting out a section of the crane tube at the winch plate level for my cables to come out, I will do this once I have a solid winch plate/rotating module with the tube epoxied in so the section that fits in the bottom bearing doesnt move out of alignment when I cut the section out.
 Lots to think about and work out but it is taking shape, my initial hope of having a working crane is looking like its going to happen, I just have to work through the challenges that pop up.
 One thing I would have liked would have been removable boom sections, another straight section would have been nice. That would have taken the boom up from 308 mm to 410 mm. Attaching them together strongly enough prevented me from trying this. Ah well, it's done now. I could always make a longer boom, but probably wont, its very fiddly, but it does end up looking pretty good.
 Last photo shows the ship in a different configuration with forward wheelhouse.
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2021, 11:10:10 am »

I discovered that one of the motor/ gearboxes I was going to use has a problem, it doesnt start turning without the assistance of a finger to get it going, not very good for a unit that is going to be under the deck.
 I have started looking for an alternative but no luck so far.
 Ah well, I did some more on the wheelhouse, reinforcing the 1/32 balsa angled side bits with a bit of match and 1/32 balsa capping. I had already added stiffener pieces to the wheelhouse roof in an attempt to lose a slight warp in the roof (or the wheelhouse?) which half worked, it still has a tendency to pop up a bit at one corner, once everything is painted and the windows are fitted, this should be a snug fit.... hopefully.
 I have started fitting my lights, lots of woring to finish.
 I think the cabin needs some portholes, some nice bought ones would be good, but budget limitations mean I will just have try and come up with some home made ones.
I found another dead servo that still had a working motor and gearbox, the only thing was that it had a filled in section on the final drive gear to prevent it turning right round and over rotating the potentiometer. I tried a scalpel to cut teeth into the blank section, not very good, terrible in fact, and the teeth would need to be very accurate so a different idea was tried with a servo gear that had teeth all round but a space for a different type of centre for the potentiometer (which was missing), I tried it and it engages with the teeth but the servo case wouldnt close, so I trimmed the half flat bit off the potentiometer shaft and tried again, it worked, the lid was on. A round output disc was trimmed to accept an old sewing machine bobbin, superglued on, this has ended up being very strong, more than I need for my crane.
 There was a slight downside to using a gear from a different servo.... the winch drum has a good bit of float at the end, I will have to add some sort of support to the other end to keep it straight as it wants to sit at a jaunty angle. I might try a bush of some sort where the potentiometer shaft meets the output gear, but I have no idea if they are centred with each other, I may force it away from the gear that is driving it. I had to remove a small bushing from the servo case to get the new output gear in, so this is not helping either. A support at the other end of the winch drum might be best.
So.... I have my 2 winches, my rotation motor, a big gear and a plan! I have pretty much worked out roughly what is happening next, once I get some parts cut out and some bits fitted, I will get a better idea of the next stage. I am going to build the platforms that will rotate with the crane first and build the static part to take the bottom bearing once I know how deep the rotating bit goes.
 Still lots to work out, I think the crane will definately need its own radio gear, I dont want any wires coming out that could get twisted round.
 I was planning on using a futaba 40mhz set for the ship controls.
 I might use my 2.4ghz flysky set for the crane, due to its relatively short receiver aerials. A 300mah 7.4v cell should be plenty for operation and will save space too.
 I think having the crane as a self contained unit will be good, no wires to plug in/get twisted.
 And most of all, a dedicated radio to prevent accidental operation while sailing, as I dont have any limit switches, things will keep pulling until something gives. I will need to be very careful operating it.
 Being self contained means it could be used on another model. Or just by itself.
I have made progress on a few areas since I wrote this the other day, I made a lead counterweight for the crane, and set it in epoxy under the counterweight 'shelf' at the back. Very pleased with how it turned out. Also made a start on the static frame attached to the underside of hatch to hold the bottom bearing.
 
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2021, 05:22:33 pm »

More work on the rotating module of the crane, I had to make sure it engages with the static gear on the underside of the hatch before I could glue anything permanently. I would like to be able to get access to work on the internals of it, but this means some bits wont be glued, so may lead to slop or misalignment.
 I am working out solutions as I go, most seem to be working out fine, some need more thinking through.
 One of the photos in last post shows how much stuff has to go on the rotating module, 2 winches, 1 rotation motor/gearbox, a battery, 3 esc's and a receiver. Quite a bit really!
 There is some room under the winch module, although it has worked out to be less than shown in my photo, there should still be enough space.
 I meant to mention that my static gear is mounted on a plastic bung from a steel tube table leg, turned out to be perfect for it, and superglue and balsa dust sticks well to it. Getting it aligned properly took a few attempts but is now very close, I will need to do a test to confirm this, I will need to wait till construction is further on before I can test it. I am fairly confident it is going to work, but I will have to wait and see.
 I also built a workshop type container, from ready brek cardboard with 1/32 balsa framing. Nice little side project.
 I made up pulley holders for the winch lines where they go up the central tube, these cant be glued in until I have cut a section out of the tube but I need everything fixed in place and the bottom bearing fitted before I can cut the tube so it doesnt move out of line.
 All heading in the right direction, and looking pretty good.
 I have made up 'steel' deck plates for under the crane base, they are made from litho plate. I thought the deck/hatch under the crane looked a bit empty. The hatches have had a couple of coats of varnish with a small amount of brown paint added.
 I am still not finished thinking about my paint scheme, I have been thinking about grey for everything above the waterline for a kind of military look. I have painted a thin coat of grey on the varnished hatches, the wood shows through a bit, which I think looks a bit better than just a uniform grey.
 I always spend a lot of time deciding paint schemes, it is a major part of a model.
 Anyway, still a fair bit to go before I can get my crane finished.
 I saw another post about a crane, it was mentioned that it could only lift a few grams, I think mine should be able to lift a bit more than that. We will see, my workshop container weighs under 10g so it shouldnt strain it at all.
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2021, 05:57:07 pm »

Short video of rotation motor test here
https://youtu.be/X_4mFsKQTws
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2021, 12:08:03 am »

Crane base test with rc fitted here
https://youtu.be/PYNy-9v6-Yg
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2021, 12:12:04 am »

Good progress tonight, I got the rest of the construction done on the crane mechanics, cut the central tube to correct length and fitted my lower pulley assemblies and braced them to existing structure. I cut the lower part of the central tube to length and fitted it in the bottom section of the rotating module, it fits into the bearing on the bottom of the static frame.
 I found a space for my receiver and connected the 3 esc's (one at a time) and tested them, all working fine. I removed the red wire from 2 of the esc's receiver plug so only one supplies voltage to receiver.
 I couldnt find enough space for the battery I was going to use, so I will make up a 200mah 7.4v pack and hope I can get it in without any of my wiring hanging out the sides of the rotating module.
 I also had to take power from the main esc 7.4v input to supply the other 2.
 Once I get my 200mah pack made up, I will be able to fit the crane on top and start running the 'cables' onto my pulleys and see how it works........if it works.
 It should do, all the pulleys line up well. I have 2 cable guides to add to the winch plate, so that the cables are guided onto the pulleys even if the cable is coming at an angle from the bobbin/drum. I had to wait till it was at this stage before I could fit these. They will be fiddly, there isnt much space where they have to go, there isnt much space left anywhere in the module, enough for my battery is all I need now though, and of course some for all the wiring to be 'arranged neatly'..... probably stuffed where it can fit will be more accurate😁
I am very happy to have reached this stage, at some points during the build, I had doubts if I could get everything to fit in and work the way I wanted, and be reliable at this size. I cant wait to get the cables on and try it. 😁
 
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2021, 01:38:06 pm »

I fitted the cable guides, shown by arrows in photo, yes, they were very fiddly but they went in and do their job well. I fitted the boom and cables, again very fiddly but satisfying once it was done. Next thing was to test it......
 It works! And very well too. The 200mah 7.4v cell lasts for about half an hour of operation (playing😁)
 I may try a bigger battery if I can fit one in.
 I had to add a bit of lead to the hoist cable to allow it to pay out under a bit of tension. I intend making a hook block from brass so that should weight it nicely.
 I attached a 50g piece of lead to my temporary hook and found that the crane lifts it without any problems at all, it would take a lot more, I will be testing it with more weight once I get my proper hook on.
 I had tested the hoist before I put the crane cab on, with the cable just coming out of the top of the central tube....... I held the cable with the whole mechanics/hatch hanging and hoisted, it was lifting the whole thing up, without much change to the motor noise.
I was very impressed, but I dont fancy putting that much weight on the end of my boom.
 As a matter of interest, I weighed the whole crane, with the boom fitted and the 50g lead weight, it is one and a half pounds, so the hoist winch definately has plenty of power. More than plenty.
 Very pleased with how it has turned out, an interesting little project that is good fun to use by itself, I need to get on with the rest of the ship now, the hull needs varnishing above the waterline before I paint it and get it in the test tank (bath)
 I estimated that the ship would need about 4 or 5 kg of ballast to sit at the waterline, the bath test will let me see how close my estimate was.
 I dont know if the ship will list to one side as I use the crane, I did glue a counterweight in the crane so this should help to lessen any list, just need to get on with my varnishing and painting and find out.
 Very impressed with the crane though, it does everything I wanted,  apart from maybe needing a bit more battery life, I cant fault it.
Only one thing, I want to build a bigger one now😁
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #38 on: August 18, 2021, 01:45:30 pm »

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Skrotiz

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #39 on: August 18, 2021, 02:09:51 pm »

Nice work.
Do you plan on powering the crane from a separate battery as a final solution?
I would power it from the ships main battery (through voltage regulator if necessary) and in that way it would have "unlimited" battery time.
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derekwarner

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2021, 02:23:29 pm »

Absolutely impressive :-))  Luff +/- , and Hoist +/- speeds  O0 ,  however need to slow the Slew speed .......Derek
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Derek Warner

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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2021, 04:01:21 pm »

The crane operates from its own battery supply which is in the lower module, this enables it to rotate without binding up any wires.
The slew speed is a bit fast but I dont know how to slow it down a bit.
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Skrotiz

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2021, 10:21:04 pm »

Slew is rotation, right?
I'm guessing gearing down is not an option.
You can slow the motor down by connecting a resistor in series with one of its wires, depending on how much current it draws you need a resistor capable of that current(shouldn't be so much for small motors).
Multiple parallel resistors in series with the motor is also an option if you use small resistors.


The unlimited rotation with the crane supported by the main battery can be achived with "rings and shoes"(don't know the correct term for this but like the inside of a cars alternator).
It's also possible to use a little longer wires with slack to give the crane a couple of turns without binding up the wires.
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2021, 10:51:39 pm »

The slew motor is a servo motor and 3 of its gears, as the 3rd gear teeth matched the large gear I had. I have no idea what size resistor a servo motor would need.
If I was forced to, I could probably manage to remount my servo gearbox and try and add extra gears but it would be easier slowing the motor down. The speed controller starts at what seems like a fairly high speed, is that the slowest speed the motor will run at?
I can put up with the speed issue just now, while I think about what I can do.
The servo gearbox is just hot glued in place just now, in case it needed adjusted to mesh with the big gear. Very lucky as the other 2 are superglued. I might be able to drop it through to the bottom layer and fit more gears above it. Actually sounds like a plan.
I will have a look, each layer is removeable and the rx, esc's and battery might be able to be moved around a bit to make space.
Need to look in the dead servo box and see if I have some nice gears that fit with what I have.

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Skrotiz

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2021, 11:09:36 am »

Looking at your setup for the rotation(slew?) i can't imagine that the problem should be wrong gearing even if it won't hurt to add another gear.
It should be able to start at a slow speed and it sounds like you should try another ESC, you could try to feed the motor from batteries(try 3V, 4,5V and 6V in that order) to se whats the slowest speed it will run at what voltage.


If its possible recalibrating the ESC could fix the problem.


If you like to try the resistor thing I'm happy to help calculating resistors, it's a quick setup to try when it only needs to be connected to one of the motor wires.
Do you know the name of the servo you use for rotating the crane? Can't tell what size it is from the picture but it should have a 5V motor.
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #45 on: August 19, 2021, 02:12:03 pm »

Hi, it is an acoms servo, I imagine it is 5v. Any help would be appreciated, resistors are beyond my experience.
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #46 on: August 19, 2021, 02:12:35 pm »

It is a standard size servo
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Skrotiz

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #47 on: August 19, 2021, 04:29:52 pm »

I'll do some tests with a standard servo from the pile of old broke down servos I have and should have an answer for you on the resistors I use to slow it down, should be close enough for any standard servo.


As long as you have some soldering skills, wich I know you have, recreateing my setup should be no problem at all.
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #48 on: August 19, 2021, 04:41:56 pm »

Thanks very much, much appreciated.
I have been getting on with the rest of the ship, I painted on the first coat of grey on the hull last night and today I painted the deck and inner hull sides, took a while, the matchstick uprights meant no long flowing brushstrokes here, just fiddly little panels. Done now though and looking good, next coat should be a bit easier.
I have not painted the wheelhouse as I still have a lot to do on it, not too far off now though.
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Andy M

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Re: 'Four Ways' cargo ship
« Reply #49 on: August 19, 2021, 04:44:23 pm »

First coat of grey, excuse my handpainted waterline. 😁
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