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Author Topic: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice  (Read 654 times)

DBS88

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Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« on: April 19, 2021, 10:40:02 am »

Hi, my usual area is steam, so I know little about electrics, but have now bought a large dusty old tug which has an electric motor in it but nothing else. So would welcome some advice
The Tug is an old Bustler Class Tug, itís 54 inches long by 11 inches wide with a draught of 5 inches, [/size]the prop is a home made 4 blade 3 inch prop. [/size]It has a 6 v Marx geared electric motor but nothing else - from my research I believe this may be a Hecataperm motor? Is it any good or should I replace it with a modern motor?
[/size]
[/size]So would welcome advice for the parts needed to use this motor -
[/size]a suitable ESC for this motor,
[/size]a suitable battery to give an hour or more running
[/size]Is the prop OK? what size prop should I use?
[/size]I guess there should be a switch for on/off and a fuse? so a simple wiring and component list would also be of help.
[/size]I am ok with the rc bits, the receiver, servo for the rudder etc
[/size]
Kind Regards[/size] Dave
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nemesis

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2021, 11:43:00 am »

My opinion, they are excellent motors as long as you run them on the geared end, I always use a 15 amp esc fused at 10 amp. The terminal choc box connectors is also what I use as if you solder the contacts you have a difficult job getting the end off to service the brushes and commy. Look up on google and see how much these motors are, be prepared for a shock. nemesis
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roycv

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2021, 12:20:54 pm »

Hi keep the motor they last sold at £140 each.  It will be still working after you are pushing up the daisies!  The second hand price is about £40-£50.  Just an occasional oiling, they can be a bit noisy but you probably will not hear this when in operation.  Stay with the propellor you have and also make sure you have a coupling from the motor to the prop shaft.

I still use NiMh batteries so I expect someone else can advise on LiPo batteries.
It will be OK to run on 7.2 volts  NiMh or 2S LiPos.  There are lots of ESCs around especially at this voltage.  All ESCs will run from either type of battery.  Choose an inexpensive one which does not have braking as for cars, otherwise there is a pause when selecting reverse.  On some ESCs there is a switch for having braking on or off.
Modern ESCs have a circuit inside that uses the drive battery to supply 4.8 volts to the receiver which will also supply the rudder servo.  There is a switch on the ESC which effectively turns the radio receiver and battery off or on.  So for simple installation leave ou the fuse and connect the servo and ESC servo leads to the receiver.

 There will be a possible white Tamiya socket on the ESC and that goes to a similar plug on the battery.  If ordering you can specify which connection you want.

The battery capacity for a nice run would be about 5000mAhs.  It may seem cheaper to buy a sealed lead acid battery but they are different and although you could fit a 6 volt 7 Ahr (7000mAhr) SLA it will not give you the same run time but if you need the weight it is a cheeper option.  Probably run at no more than 4 or 5 amps with prop in the water.
One pond side thing I saw from a new person to radio and tugs etc was that the rudder servo operating arm was badly positioned and it could go 'over centre' when operating the rudder.  In the situation I saw the rudder swung inwards and jammed into the propellor and blew the motor fuse and he did not have a spare!
Think carefully when placing the rudder servo and I suggest you use a pull and push from the servo arm to the rudder tiller.
I would choose a reliable 2.4Ghtz radio set you only need 2 channels but they often come as 4 channel.

Personally I would ring up Howes models in Oxford and tell them what you have and they will send the whole set up to you.  There are other options!!!
Hope this helps and good luck!
Roy


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roycv

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2021, 12:30:03 pm »

Hi again usual set up for the Transmitter is the left up/down stick works the forward and reverse and the left /right stick for rudder.  It helps if left stick makes the boat go to the left and forward left stick is actually forward.  There are reversing of servo swithches on the TX.
Roy
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DBS88

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2021, 04:36:33 pm »

Thank you Nemises and Roy, that's helped get me under way.
Have looked at ESC's and the ESC MTRONIKS Electronic Speed Controller RC boats VIPER MARINE 15 Plug and Play seems popular, is that OK to use?
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roycv

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2021, 05:47:28 pm »

Mtronics have a good name, so should be fine.  Sorry if I was teaching you to suck eggs but was not sure what 'steam' experience you were refering to.  Good luck with the electrics, there is always someone here who knows the answer to most things.

Roy
 
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DBS88

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2021, 08:25:13 am »

I still use NiMh batteries so I expect someone else can advise on LiPo batteries.
It will be OK to run on 7.2 volts  NiMh or 2S LiPos

The battery capacity for a nice run would be about 5000mAhs.  It may seem cheaper to buy a sealed lead acid battery but they are different and although you could fit a 6 volt 7 Ahr (7000mAhr) SLA it will not give you the same run time but if you need the weight it is a cheeper option.  Probably run at no more than 4 or 5 amps with prop in the water.
Roy
Roy Thankyou, re the battery, happy to get the best performance, have seen a gel cell 6v 12ah battery or a pair of 5000 Niamh 7.2, which would be better suited to this Tug?
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roycv

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2021, 09:07:29 am »

Hi again, are you proposing to run the NiMh batteries in parallel?
Going back to your original hour or so run time then there is not much difference the NiMh at 7.2 voltls will give you slightly higher speed.  Mainly you will probably not want to travel at full speed all the time.  The SLA battery will give you a couple of hours on the water easily and a single Nimh one would do much the same.
As a guess you would need 30-35 watts of power for a good speed, but would still pootle along on half that.  This is equal to about 5 amps with the NiMh battery and the motor should be warm but no more.  I think the SLA battery would be getting quite warm for the full current though.
You can over think these things and I would settle for a 5000mAh Nimh battery and see if it worked for what you want, perhaps having a second one for spare. 
Another point is that you can leave a NiMh battery until you need it next time.  With a SLA you need to check it once a month and keep it charged otherwise it will 'sulphate up' inside.  Also eventually the SLA battery will have one of its' 3 internal cells go down and this writes off the battery.
With a NiMh battery if a cell fails you can isolate which one with a meter and cut it free and replace it.  However they do last well!  But they are dearer.

The 2 different batteries require different types of charger.  So opt for one and then you need just one type of charger.  The Nimh batteries like a constant current charge and I would get an intelligent charger which shows a green light when charged and also switches to trickle charge.
SLA batteries have a voltage based charge called taper charging where the battery voltage catches up with the applied charge voltage until they meet at about 7.2 volts, this quickly drops to 6 volts when in use.  You can also get intelligent chargers for SLA batteries as well.
I have used SLA batteries in the past but now use NIcad and NiMh batteries they are easier on maintenance!
All the best
Roy


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DBS88

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2021, 02:52:41 pm »

Roy thank you that's most helpful, we have sorted out the ESC as 15 AMPs Marine type as a minimum, and the battery preferably a NiMH of 5000Mah, which is brilliant news. I have today rigged up a power supply to the motor and it runs fine so will use it.


Does a 6Volt 8Amp Hectaperm Motor need a suppressor?
If so how can I find out what suppressor to use and where to get one from, and how is it set up/connected?


Also its been suggested that the motor draws 8 amps when operating at its most efficient? so I guess there is an optimum number of revs when the motor is under load? Do I need to know about this or just get on with running the boat and the battery will last as long as it lasts?







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nemesis

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2021, 03:06:57 pm »

I have never had to fit suppressors on any Marx motors, I have found them to be "clean",but like everything else,if in doubt, fit the them. The set up you bought did not have them so that is a clue. If you ever have to strip the gearbox off the motor the grease you use is silicone, not mineral. nemesis
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chas

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2021, 03:52:05 pm »

May I chip in on this thread. I agree almost totally with what's been said, but one thing is puzzling me. I'm all for nimh batteries, so much easier and longer lasting to use, but why a 7.2 volt pack and not a 6 volt one? I've had the smaller 6 volt decaperms in days long gone, and ran them on 6 volts, the idea being that running at the designed specifications was good for the motor, and long life.
    I know that you'll have a speed controller, but unless I've missunderstood the way they work, they still deliver full voltage and control the speed by pulsing it, so still not good for the motor.
 I realize that the motor will probably work on 7.2 volts, but being over driven, won't it shorten the life of an expensive motor?
  Or have I missed something? It won't be the first time.
Charles

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nemesis

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2021, 05:56:10 pm »

I suppose a 7.2v is a convenient physical size where the 6v has an odd cell, on top or off centre. I take your point about voltage, a fully charged 6v battery is way over 6v for a short while whereas the 7.2 is way over all the time. So stick with the voltage of the motor. I have recovered many perm motors, their end caps completely melted and the armatures totally unsoldered all by abuse. nemesis
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roycv

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2021, 06:28:05 pm »

Hi BBS88, forget the 8 amps bit if you have a meter by all means check the current. But otherwise the motor current will depend on the load.  The lower the speed you run at will increase the run time.  Nemesis must have seen some extreme mis use for the melting of the bearings. The 20 % higher voltage will be OK as long as you keep in mind the overall maximum power load the motor can deliver, around 50 Watts.  Run it for 10 minutes and then see if the motor has got hot.  If you can't hold it for a few seconds that is too hot!
I regularly ran a 5 pole 550 motor with a reduction gearbox at 50% over voltage with no ill effect.
I am not so sure about not having some capacitors across the terminals, if you are on 2.4 Ghtz there is no interference anyway, but you would still affect other boaters on 40 Mhtz.

 I was using some Super Monoperms recently and had to put some 0.1 microfarad capacitors (50 volt working) across the terminals and also from each terminal to the metal body of the motor.  They cost pence each so do not pay pounds for them!

At this stage do not worry about how efficient the system is, run time and how hot things get is more to the point.
Does you tug squirt water?  If it does and a hot motor is a worry then 5 or 6 turns of some 1/8th. tubing wrapped around the motor, the brush end will get hottest, and take your water in via this coil, this will extract a lot of heat.
But see how it all runs first.
Good luck
Roy


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DBS88

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2021, 09:41:07 pm »

This is going well, Thankyou for your support, I feel that the refurb will work much better now with your advice on the electrics.
I have looked at NiMH batteries and a 6v 5000mah version is available, will have a look at regreasing the gear box with silicone grease and get the Esc ordered.
Is there anything else about this motor and set up I should consider?
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2021, 09:19:22 am »

5 cell NiMH are available arranged as 5 in a row alongside each other and as a 2+3 hump pack.
Lightly loaded, Graupner motors were well enough engineered to survive being run over voltage, but sticking to the max on the label is always a good idea.  The ones that I have seen already came with a suppressor fitted internally, sticking an extra 0.01 or .001 μF across the motor terminals will do no harm and demonstrates good manners for other lake users.  I have yet to find that fitting the extra capacitors to the motor frame/case ever did any good, and suspect that they are a carry over from the days of field wound motors and dubious winding insulation.
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roycv

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2021, 01:58:18 pm »

Hi Malcolm I agree with what you say but twice in the last couple of years (last year does not count) I have had to connect the metal body of the motor to each terminal to stop interference at range. 

I sold a model to a friend and he brought it back to me because of interference and after doing a lot of basic things it was the caps to body that solved the problem.  This was on a 5 pole 550 size motor running at 30 watts on 12 volts.
I avoid metal to metal U/Js as I have experienced interference here as well.  I run with 27 and 40 Mhz RC.  I have so many radios and rx's that I doubt I shall ever run out of them, so have not gone over to 2.4Ghz.

Best regards
Roy
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DBS88

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2021, 06:30:06 pm »

Have now ordered a 5000mah 6v nimh and a 15 amp marine Esc, thank you for the help to get me that far it is appreciated.
With regard to the hectaperm motor does it need a suppressor? If so which one? If possible a sketch or photo of how itís fitted would be immensely helpful
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2021, 07:49:33 pm »

Direct across the motor terminals.  Its a 0.01μF disc capacitor.  In this case, one leg in each motor terminal, disc caps are bi-directional and don't care  which way round.  Trying for the extra ones (each double the value) would be counter productive with the plastic case involved.  A supressor kit normally comes as a set of three.  Since it is the radio frequency that is being absorbed, the same capacitors do the job for any size motor on any commonly used model voltage.
After a quick search for "suppressor" this turned up - https://www.componentshop.co.uk/large-rfi-kit.html - which includes a picture.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 07:55:44 pm by malcolmfrary »
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DBS88

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2021, 11:15:27 am »

Thank you for the advice it is appreciated, parts have been ordered just waiting for the post to arrive, in the meantime, one last query is re the propellor size, from my limited understanding of electric motors it appears better to have a prop that allows the motor to spin at optimal revs, generally nearer to the top of the rev range ? So it may be a smaller prop is better than a larger prop?(complete opposite of steam). I have heard a rule of thumb that the prop should not be bigger dia than the motor? is this true?

What is the recommended max size/dia prop that should be fitted to this motor? or

From practical experience what size prop have you successfully run with this motor?
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roycv

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2021, 01:00:01 pm »

Hi a lot of it comes down to how many turns of wire there are on the armature of the motor.  Boaters go for the more turns rather than fewer.  The car race motors have just a few turns to give quick acceleration, we are not interested in that. 

So much depends on design of the motor but boat motors generally have 20 or more turns on each armature.  The basic motor has 3 armature windings each coming out to a commutator segment.  But 5 pole armatures are easy to come by and they go upwards after that but that is usually for industrial use.
You can of course have a 2 pole armature but it will mostly not self-start!  The prop to motor diameter is a rule of thumb that sort of works. 

However the slower a propeller turns the more efficient it is as there is less slippage of water past the blades.  A geared down motor can drive a bigger propellor but the propeller can then develop a sort of paddle wheel effect which disturbs running straight.  Probably any gain in efficiency has already been loss in resistance to motion in the gearbox.
So compromise with about 2-4000 revs on a propellor that looks right.  Very small props may spin like a whisk until given a push, I have experience of that!
Remember that water is 800 times (actually 784 depending on ambients) denser than air so underwater items need to be 'streamlined' to limit drag.  That goes for rudder angles currently discussed in Model Boats magazine this month.
Good luck
Roy


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roycv

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2021, 01:17:00 pm »

Hi further to my post you say you 'come from steam'  do you construct your own steam plants?  The steam engine is another precisely designed piece of engineering some favouring the long stroke for torque and so on.  Having a friend who designs them I have seen some extraordinary designs many of them work very well. 

There still seem to be some unexplored areas and having recently witnessed them I am always interested.  Knowing the rate and pressure that water is evaporated can lead to some very precise calculations.  I was privileged to be part of a project 30 years ago now for a model boat endurance competition.  I designed the electronic automatic water feed to the boiler (a number of years before Cheddar) and the speed of the boat was predicted and proved to be correct.
Regards
Roy
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DBS88

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Re: Hectaperm Motor? ESC, Battery, Prop Advice
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2021, 05:20:43 pm »

Thank you for your support with this. Today I was able to run the engine with the speed controller and battery based on your advice, so now I need to set about installing in the hull. Here is a photo of the motor, speed controller, battery, receiver etc all connected and working. I just need to add the suppression now.
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