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Author Topic: mixers?  (Read 2008 times)

rd

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mixers?
« on: May 05, 2021, 11:30:06 am »

Hi there,  im building my 1st RC boat (beam trawler) and I've got a question regarding mixers or any other gadgetry that would do the job. Basically I want to find out if its possible to use a 3 way switch on Tx to control a esc (fwd/stop/reverse) and use a spare proportional/rotational channel to then control the speed it runs at. It's to run a small crawler winch to operate the fishing gear. I have no more proportional channels to use other than 1 rotary nob so it would always be a set speed on the switch. As I say I new to all this and only have limited knowledge so any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated.thats if it even possible.
Cheers, Ryan.
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kinmel

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2021, 12:02:31 pm »

If you use a radio system based on the OpenTx system, then that is easily achieved with "mixing", for example....

My Shannon lifeboat is capable of 27knots at 1:12 scale in our boating lake but that creates too big a wash when other are sailing and it is also difficult to control at very low speeds when so much power is available.
I use a 3 way switch to set power limits while retaining the full throw of the joystick,  "UP" is 100%,  "-" is 50% and "DOWN" is 15% maximum power
You can move power control from a joystick to a particular switch or knob, simply by changing another input.

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rd

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2021, 12:22:53 pm »

Thanks for reply....OK so if I'm understanding that correctly I don't need to physically connect a 2nd channel to the esc setup, but assign the rotary nob to the 3way switch on transmitter itself......that right? My transmitter setup is a Carlson 14ch which I went for purely for the quantity of switches to control 4 separate winches and a few light circuits, not knowing enough I didn't think about revs of the winch.
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barriew

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2021, 12:37:45 pm »

Which Transmitter are you using?  The Turnigy/Flysky i6 has a 3 position switch and a rotary knob, but you can't link them. As far as I can remember the rotary control has a centre off, and so gives forward stop and reverse - the only problem would be stopping accurately in the mid position.


Barrie
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kinmel

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2021, 12:48:01 pm »

You need a Tx that allows you to set up  various mixers.
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John W E

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2021, 03:29:10 pm »

Hi there


I wonder if this would help you out.  Basically, it's a mini speed controller.   I have used several of these myself and one of them, I used to control a crane on my Seaforth

model.  The only thing though which I found with it which is annoying, is, they have a slight delay on them (as a safety feature).   When I used mine for jib up/down on the crane, there is a slight delay before the jib will begin to move.   My jib movement is connected on the right hand stick opposite the throttle stick - so - up on the stick is jib rise - centre of the stick movement is stop and obviously down on the stick is jib lower.   So you could do the same with your winch.


Also, with it being a built in speed controller on the unit, the harder you push the stick up or down the faster it will go.


Just a thought.


RC BLIMP Boat Winch Hoist Bow Thruster Controller 3A | eBay


John
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C-3PO

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2021, 04:01:00 pm »

Using a combination of other contributors suggestions you could use the knob to control forward and reverse speed via an ESC and then incorporate a receiver connected relay switch on the 3 way switch channel to cut the connection of the ESC output to the motor


Regards
C-3PO
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rd

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2021, 05:44:08 pm »

Thanks everyone for your replies , they're much appreciated.

C3PO- your suggestion was the sorta thing I had thought myself but wasn't sure if would work in reality. So if that is a possible solution would it be possible to use the nob on a dual esc and then switch each winch individual after that therefore making both winches independently operated but with a common speed control?
Again thanks for all your help.
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rd

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2021, 05:47:09 pm »

John W E- I did look at those but I couldn't work out how I'd wire it up to get what I wanted which was ideally to have 4 individual switched winches split into pairs for the speed adjustment on the 2 nobs I have.
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C-3PO

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2021, 06:10:33 pm »

So if that is a possible solution would it be possible to use the nob on a dual esc and then switch each winch individual after that therefore making both winches independently operated but with a common speed control?
Again thanks for all your help.

You could use a single channel ESC controlled by the proportional "knob" channel

You would have a common ground with both winch motors

You would then want to have a "3 position relay switcher thingy" to switch the positive output of the ESC to either Winch 1 or Winch 2 motor with the centre position of the 3 position switch being off

I am not sure what is commercially available with RC relay boards - I'll have a Google and come back to you - if not commercially avaiable it would be easy to build!

Update - looks like 2 of these might work - there is a way to configure the boards "switching point" - so in theory they can both be connected to the same RC channel and configured to switch differently ie mapped to the 3 position RC handset switch

Relay A would switch on in Switch position 1 (and would be off in SW position 2 &3)
Both relays would be off in position 2
Relay B would switch on in Switch position 3 (and would be off in SW position 1 & 2)

https://www.technobotsonline.com/pololu-rc-relay-10a-partially-assembled-version.html

Regards
C-3PO
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rd

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2021, 06:26:24 pm »

Hi C3PO      i've got 4 x 3-way switches on transmitter which will do the fwd/stop/reverse on each of the 4 winches and then 2 x rotary nobs to then control speed of 2 pairs of winches.......so is what your suggesting still applicable? Or am I missing something? Thanks again, this info is all so helpful.
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C-3PO

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2021, 06:36:23 pm »

I think I might be missing something!

Forget the radio,ESC, 3 position switches etc etc

What do you want to happen with the 4 winches? Do they work in pairs or individually.

Try to paint the picture (without the radio bits)  so we can come up to speed with your objective

Regards
C-3PO
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C-3PO

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2021, 10:33:22 pm »

Hi C3PO      i've got 4 x 3-way switches on transmitter which will do the fwd/stop/reverse on each of the 4 winches and then 2 x rotary nobs to then control speed of 2 pairs of winches.......so is what your suggesting still applicable? Or am I missing something? Thanks again, this info is all so helpful.

I think there is some confusion...hope I am not teaching you to suck eggs!!! - all numbers are appoximate and used to explain the concept

The output of the radio receiver channels is a pulse that ranges from 1ms to 2 ms with the midway neutral point at 1.5ms.
An ESC with reverse will have no output to the motor @ 1.5ms (neutral)

The ESC will spin the motor with a speed proportionally to the pulse one way with an output between 1.0 - 1.45ms and the other way with a signal between 1.55 - 2ms  (figures are approx to paint the picture)

If you use a 3 way switch it's likely that the 3 outputs at the receiver are approx 1ms, 1.5ms (neutral position 2) and 2ms. If you connect that to an ESC you only have control of no motion in neutral and FULL SPEED one way or the other.

So it's not practical to use the 3 way switch at all with an ESC directly as there is no speed control. Indeed you cannot connect a 3 way switch (for fwd/stop/reverse) and a proportional knob to an ESC at the same time.

You could just use the proportional knob - the issue will be the practicality on the radio handset - does the knob have a neutral position that is easy to return to, so you can find the STOP position 100% of the time quickly as the motors will be moving until you locate it....

Some radios do have a notch that allows you to easily find neutral - the issue will be if you overshoot either way as you twiddle the knob - the ESC will act on the overshoot and your winch motor will kick into life. Hence the reason for suggesting using a relay switch to physically disconnect the ESC output from the motor so STOP is achieved 100% of the time when you want it.

I think if I was doing this myself I would have an ESC without reverse and use the 3 channel switch to allow me to set the motor direction or STOP using RC Relays. This way the knob would simply control speed and you may find that you often set and forget the knob as you find a realistic speed for spinning the winch motors

Regards
C-3PO

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rd

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2021, 06:32:22 am »

I've tried to add a pic of the boat to help with explanation  but came up error several times..anyways.....
So as a beam trawler it has a derrick either side and a set 9f fishing gear either side. So I've got 4 winches; 1 on each dericck (pair A) and 1 one each set of fishing gear (pair B). As both winches in each pair do the same job just opposite sides they can be paired off for speed control.
Hope that makes sense.

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malcolmfrary

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2021, 08:38:15 am »


Basic questions.
What is the size of the boat?
What is on the end of the winch lines?
What kind of water is it going to sail in?
A snagged net is a known cause of endangering real boats, even if the crew manages to do something about it.  A model relies on the remote eyesight of the operator.  In anything other than a clear swimming pool, deploying and recovering a net could be problematic.  The smaller the model, the bigger the problem.


A small servo can operate a switch to operate a motor.  on a no-proportional channel giving forward - off - reverse, the servo will take up these three positions.  If the control signal is "lost" the servo remains in the last state it was instructed to take up.  A multi way switcher could be used to interrupt the servo control wires and offer the control signal to any one of them, or pair, depending on the choice of wiring.  It would need a channel to control the switcher to select which servo was to be operated.
In modern times, a micro controller like an Arduino could be used.  Just needs the right programming.
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Re: mixers?
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2021, 09:12:42 am »

I've tried to add a pic of the boat to help with explanation  but came up error several times..anyways.....
So as a beam trawler it has a derrick either side and a set 9f fishing gear either side. So I've got 4 winches; 1 on each dericck (pair A) and 1 one each set of fishing gear (pair B). As both winches in each pair do the same job just opposite sides they can be paired off for speed control.
Hope that makes sense.
I'd be very worried about this all tangling around your prop and either disabling your boat or the gear being ripped off and wrecking the the model.
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John W E

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2021, 09:39:23 am »


I hate this saying, but I am sorry to rain on your parade, as they say - I have been down this road and I have built a side trawler - and I did try extending the booms with a home made fishing net extended on it - to see how it would perform.   Sadly, it doesn't perform very well at all.  First of all, you must lower both booms either side at the same time or the stability of the model is put in jeopardy as the model keels over alarmingly.  Also, as has been previously said, if you pick anything up on one side of the model in its nets, it tends to send the model off in all directions.   What happened to me is, when I was trying it out I was using two old fishing nets (like the ones you buy kids down at the pond) on the boom as a trial and in the net I picked up a couple of leaves and a couple of seagull feathers.   My model started to list alarmingly because of the drag.  So, I never fitted any winches, motors or mechanisms into the model for lifting / lowering the booms and nets.


On the other hand, I made the fishing trawler, Boston Blenheim, with a working trawl winch and net over the stern of the vessel and I have had many a good hour with that trawling round the lakes.  But, has already been said, it has been snagged on the bottom of the lake many a time and the other thing I did was replace the net on the Boston with a magnet to see what could be picked up off the bottom of the lake - we didn't pick up much.


So, if this is your first time into modelling with boats, I would concentrate in getting the boat to sail properly before adding any furnishings such as winches or anything.  Just my thoughts.


A link to the build of the side trawler here for you ]TRAWLER SEA LADY/ANGEL EMIAL (modelboatmayhem.co.uk)
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rd

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2021, 01:53:59 pm »

Hi, I try to respond to all the new info above......I'm a commercial fisherman so am only too aware of the dangers of coming fast, but my fishing gear is scallop dredges not a trawl, and as they were incredibly time consuming to build they won't ever touch the bottom as far too precious to me. And because of the short/compact nature 9f scallop gear it can't really go in the prop.ive checked the stability in a pool and all fine even with 1 derrick stowed in the air and other down with the gear hanging off the end. Ideally they will go down simultaneously but if they arnt then that's why I plan on having both sides switched individually for more precise control.I know several other fisherman with models and  all they're derricks/gear works on far smaller models than mine. So I do hear what saying but I'm happy with the stability and happy to play and learn till get it just right. For any "action shots" of the boat towing I shall probably remove the scallop dredges and just use small fishing weights or somthing so minimal drag but will give the desired look.Thanks for all comments thow, appreciate it and have already learnt alot, cheers👍🏻
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Re: mixers?
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2021, 09:02:52 pm »

Hi not sure if this helps but in my youth I bought an F-14 futaba set then realised I was too poor for any expansion modules!  I ended up making some home brew very basic boards based on the fact all I had to do for adjusting servo throws was increasing the resistance of the pots above or below in piggyback, I also have a rotary switch set to different resistors which gave me expansion of one channel to 4 or more functions etc without needing a Futaba module.  Just a cheaper switched output module.  Now I DON'T know whether the Carson unit is specially set-up just for a switched on/off function or whether it will recognise a resistance input instead. Is it feasible to replace a switch with a rotary knob or even a retro fit F-14 slider with centre detent?  That way you could have centre off and linear either way.  Some imagination and very basic hacking involved but might expand your options?  No control of starting and stopping the winch when spooled in or out but that could be done in the old fashioned way with microswitches. I don't know whether this is feasible or not with your tax but seems an alternative to consider?  Ps I'm pretty sure I got the idea from an old MB or MMI article at the time, but we're talking a cpl of decades ago now.  I just went to check my tx and it's not where I thought I'd left it (probably put in a safe place now) so couldn't check the sliders I fitted.
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2021, 10:00:21 pm »

The Carson 14ch sets will drive servos on all 14 outputs. Not proportionally as the majority of the command inputs from the Tx are via 2 and three position switches. But three wires to a toggle switch could convert to a proportional input with resistors? Couldn't go any further with my tests as the set wasn't mine to hack!
The articles you refer to were published many years ago, Either Model Boats magazine or the short lived sister publication whose name I forget. Articles possibly by Glynn Guest? Anyway, it lead me to hack many radios for many pyro equipped models over the years. So for that, many thanks :-))

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2021, 08:14:42 am »

The Carson 14ch sets will drive servos on all 14 outputs. Not proportionally as the majority of the command inputs from the Tx are via 2 and three position switches. But three wires to a toggle switch could convert to a proportional input with resistors? Couldn't go any further with my tests as the set wasn't mine to hack!
The articles you refer to were published many years ago, Either Model Boats magazine or the short lived sister publication whose name I forget. Articles possibly by Glynn Guest? Anyway, it lead me to hack many radios for many pyro equipped models over the years. So for that, many thanks :-))
Radios from early days would generally have all channels arranged as basically proportional, but the switched channels would just switch between one point on a resistor chain and another and cause the servo at the other end to take up the appropriate positions.  Or the switch unit to react accordingly.
On modern sets, which are really a computer with an aerial, the switched inputs might be worked by software that can only recognise the switch positions.  A two or three position switch takes up a lot less radio bandwidth than a proportional channel.  Since each manufacturer can set his own standards, there is no way of saying what any particular system can do without direct experience of that system.
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rd

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2021, 08:54:28 am »

OK so, can I ask some questions just so things a bit clearer for me please about possible solutions......
can I just swap out my  3way switch on handset with a small proportional lever/switch with a centre off?( was one my original thoughts)
Can I just use a esc with a pot and have the 3switch to excite the esc n give fwd/stop/rev then a servo to move the pot?
Could I wire up a separate servo controlled pot after a normal esc?
Can the proportional tx nob be used  to run esc then a rx 3way switch to activate movement after the esc?
Thanks again for all the electronics advice, it's all very useful 👍🏻

 
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C-3PO

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Re: mixers?
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2021, 11:58:22 am »

Going back to basics, does you radio handset proportional control knob(s) have a "definate central reposition notch on their travel or the like" to facilitate easily relocation to the neutral/central position?

barriew suggested this early on and also mentioned the need to easily locate the neutral knob position to "STOP the ESC triggering motor movement

If so why not wire up a motor and ESC on one of the proportional knob channels and have a play - if you can repeat bringing the motor to a stop then you have a solution.

For a belt and braces approach you could always add an RC relay switch to each pair of winches - controlled by the switched channels that switches/interuppts the ESC voltage ouput to the motors - this way you can only move the winch motors when you have "armed" the sytem and would also act as an emergeny stop.

If you can't locate the central "knob" postion easily then using the relay switching approach to arm/allow motor movement (allow power to motor allowing it to move if the ESC commands it to) then you would adopt an operation method where you dial in the speed and direction by positioning the knob left or right of center neutral point and then flick the 2 or 3 way switch to control the relay allowing  you to supply pwoer from the ESC to the motor therefore  switching on/off motor movement

Regards
C-3PO
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Re: mixers?
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2021, 12:44:49 pm »

Hi C3PO, as far as I can tell the nob on Tx has no click or any feel of a central position so I'm guessing that it literally just accelerates whatever its rigged to and has no directional control.I'm hoping my battery turns up tommora so can have a play with it and see what happens.at the moment I'm liking the idea of barriew with the kill switch on each winch after esc but as the nob doesn't appear to have a centre it wouldn't work would it? Or am I misunderstanding? So am I just better with a servo operated pot after the esc n leave the esc controll to the switch on tx to operate? Thanks again everyone, even if not 100% solved my query I've definitely learnt some things.
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Re: mixers?
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2021, 12:48:02 pm »

Hi C3PO, as far as I can tell the nob on Tx has no click or any feel of a central position so I'm guessing that it literally just accelerates whatever its rigged to and has no directional control.I'm hoping my battery turns up tommora so can have a play with it and see what happens.at the moment I'm liking the idea of barriew with the kill switch on each winch after esc but as the nob doesn't appear to have a centre it wouldn't work would it? Or am I misunderstanding? So am I just better with a servo operated pot after the esc n leave the esc controll to the switch on tx to operate? Thanks again everyone, even if not 100% solved my query I've definitely learnt some things.
if you can't locate the central "knob" postion easily then using the relay switching approach to arm/allow motor movement (allow power to motor allowing it to move if the ESC commands it to) then you would adopt an operation method where you dial in the speed and direction by positioning the knob left or right of center neutral point and then flick the 2 or 3 way switch to control the relay allowing  you to supply power from the ESC to the motor therefore  switching on/off motor movement

To clarify - if you have an ESC with reverse then you need to position the control knob/stick to centre/neutral for stop - it you move it one way from the center/neutral position the motor will gradually increase speed proportionally to how much you move it - if you move it the other side of neutral the motor will gradually increase speed but will be rotating the opposite way
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