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Author Topic: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range  (Read 4348 times)

phillnjack3

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2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« on: May 12, 2021, 01:41:52 pm »

High fella's.
What sort of radio range are you getting from your models ?
Is the new fan dangled 2.4 Giggley hurts  as good as the old 27 Am radio of the 1970's  or 27 fm of the 90's  or 35 MHz ? :-))
I ask this as I used to send model boats out and need binoculars to see them down the coast.
Ive been seeing some people talk of silly ranges like 400 ft and 800 feet  >>:-( is this realy all they have or
are most sets much better
I have seen some new turnigy stuff in 4 channel mega cheap and wondered if this stuff is any good.
with 4 channels I can do pretty much what I want and even the 6 channel trans and receiver is still very cheap..
I know it dont do much good for submarines , but I am hoping not to sink any of my boats..  :}
I have a futaba FF7 that I would like to convert to 2.4 GHZ but seems a bit expensive to do such a thing..

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justboatonic

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2021, 02:10:46 pm »

Ask 10 people this question and you'll likely get 10 different answers. BTW, 35Mhz is reserved for aircraft and shouldnt be used in boats \ cars.

Range is determined by amongst other things, aerial position on the receiving model and rf power. 2.4Ghz range is as good if not better than 'old' style 27Mhz AM \ FM etc not least because of its superior interference rejection.
However, 27 and even 40Mhz rx's have far longer aerials and depending on whether someone is going for scale looks or not, could fix these inside a vertical straw so they are mounted upright. At sea level, you might get a further range with this methodology than you would with shorter 2.4Ghz aerials although Id doubt it.
As with everything, you should always do a range check before committing model to ground, water or air.
Some modern Tx's are modular and accept different frequency modules, mainly due to different RC frequencies around the world. Personally, I wouldnt recommend having any old Tx 'converted' to 2.4Ghz. Better to buy bespoke.
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Steve Dean

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2021, 02:57:11 pm »

The answer above nails some of the most salient points. However, I regularly see models with a 2.4GHz RX buried in a rats nest of wiring within a model. That doesn't help the RF reception at all. The 'problem' with 2.4GHZ receivers is that they are small and their antenna(s) are very short. Therefore you should make sure that the antenna(s) are located with as much clear space as possible and as high up in the model as you can get them. When operating at your local water (at relatively short range) or on an indoor pool at a show there is unlikely to be a problem. However if you wish to let your model operate at longer range then you need to get everything operating the best you can (and conduct a long range test).Not all TX & RX's are born equal ..... there are some very cheap 2.4GHz sets with extremely low TX power and their range is poor.Whilst, in theory, there are regulations about the amount of TX power that the equipment generates, there many products on the market that are non-compliant (i.e. they transmit higher power than permitted).A good rule of thumb if you wish to operate at range is to use good quality equipment, install it properly and always do a distance range check.If you need any further input there are many of us on Mayhem who are very willing to give guidance.
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phillnjack3

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2021, 03:33:42 pm »

Yeah I know all the mumbo jumbo about range checks, but wanted to know what is considered a reasonable distance with the 2.4 giggly herts stuff.
like I said  I see people on the point of bragging about 800 feet, well to me thats toy stuff. I want atleast a 1 mile range in line of sight.
most of my running is around 1/3rd to 1/2 mile from shore..
I have seen these 2.4 receivers have incredibly short antenna.. from what I am understanding the receiver and its tiny Ariel would be best up on
top of a radar arch disguised as something else on a scale model...
or at least on the roof inside what would look like a liferaft,  only means lengthening some wires to go up and then can be hidden in a tubular radar arch..

I have looked at some of these cheapo sets and they seem to be good value. power wise I dont realy know.
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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2021, 04:29:17 pm »

One of the big problems with 2.4GHz is that water will absorb the energy so a good chunk of your output will be warming up the pond.     Also, if your receiver is below the waterline, you're limiting its reception even further.        As others have said, mount it up as high as possible and away from any brushed motors for added safety (sparks from the brushes are wideband interference that will disrupt the link).
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John W E

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2021, 04:30:37 pm »

Hi there,


I have often wondered myself about the range of a 2.4 GHZ radio range.   I do know that in the past I had a lot of trouble with a Planet 2.4 transmitter and receiver with extremely short range and I am talking roughly about 20 yards and this turned out to be a duff cell in the transmitter battery.   It was absolutely great when it wasn't under load - but - obviously the further out on the lake the boat went - the more strain it must have put on the battery pack and the cell failed.


What I have often thought about doing is going on to a model aircraft forum and maybe asking the question on there.   A lot of people who fly aircraft (these expensive aircraft with engines & etc that cost mega bucks) seem to put a lot of faith in the 2.4 radio sets.   I don't think I would like to put all my faith into a 2.4 system which fails after a few hundred yards and brings the aircraft down to earth with a crash.    As I have said earlier it may be a good idea to do some research via an aircraft forum.


See what comes up there.   Hey, and then come back on here and let us know :-)


John
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phillnjack3

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2021, 04:50:02 pm »

Yes John your right, some extremely expensive planes choppers etc are using 2.4 and they do go a  fair bit of distance.
ill now go look at some cheapo radio in the planes and see how far away they are going..
I dont want to be spending a fortune on just a rescue boat, as that is mainly what I want to do with it, rescue the big stuff in emergency
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SailorGreg

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2021, 04:53:11 pm »

Why do none of the Tx specs, cheap or expensive, offer a nominal power output figure? Isn't that a fundamental characteristic of any transmitter?


Greg

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2021, 05:20:58 pm »

Why do none of the Tx specs, cheap or expensive, offer a nominal power output figure? Isn't that a fundamental characteristic of any transmitter?


Greg
Transmitter output power is subject to a legal limit.  Since this is easily achieved with modern technology, all "full range" transmitters transmit at that power.  Since they all give out the same power level, there is no point in making claims. 
The important factors for range are receiver sensitivity and selectivity.  Sensitivity to respond to a fainter signal, selectivity to not respond to anything else. 
"Park flyer" outfits could be either low transmitter power or less good receivers.
The important consideration is commonly siting of the receiver antenna.  As clear of, and above, the water surface, and not hidden behind anything that will either absorb or deflect the signal.  Some of the higher priced units have magic boxes for use with their receivers that get sense out of fainter and possibly more intermittent signals.  Or an extra wire with associated electronicery.
My minimum cost radio claims that for flight, I can expect 1Km range.  Surface use, half that.  In use, I can't really see which way the boat is pointing looking along the lake if it is more than 200 metres away.  So it, like probably all other full range radios is adequate.  I expect that their figures anticipate sensible siting.
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Steve Dean

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2021, 05:47:03 pm »

Good answers from Malcolm as I would expect. However please allow me to expand. A range of 1 mile with a good set of radio gear can be achieved (but not using so called Park type of gear). The problem is we are transmitting over water with a TX typically only positioned about 4 feet from the ground. On flat water with a well positioned receiver you are in with a chance. But, for example, over salt water with waves then the range will become much reduced and highly likely to be variable.
As I am sure most experienced modellers will understand, a model plane is (hopefully) up in the air and the transmission path is unobstructed. However, in the Large Model Association (LMA) where very large aircraft are flown, the receivers will have diversity reception (i.e two antennas), often with separate (so called) satellite receivers. In some circumstances there will even be redundancy facilities with more than one receiver with automatic switch over.In many of my large model boats I have some of the facilities mentioned above ( I use Spektrum and Jeti) and have sailed them to the limit of my vision but the ultimate range is very dependent of the conditions and a whole host of variables.
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madboats

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2021, 07:44:45 pm »

Hi all


I run ic sport power and as such i have all the radio gear in a water tight compartment including the battery i use Spektrum with no problems.
Advice has been given regarding the sighting rx/antenna all right and proper, i was wondering no one as mentioned the introduction of the receivers with no antenna by Spektrun i use one in an electric buggy and one in a ic power boat no problems


Happy Boating madboats







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JimG

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2021, 07:47:14 pm »

One thing not mentioned so far is that some receivers have short aerials, often just coming out of the receiver box. (Some Spectrum receivers have the aerial internal to the case and provbably use a track on the circuit board) Others have aerial extensions, basically a length of coax cable that takes the actual aerial further away ( the actual aerial is just the end section of coax with the outer ground removed.) The original Spectrum need for satellite receivers was basically due to their short aerials being easily blanked in flight by fuel or metal parts of the plane. With some they have an extra section near the end which acts to amplify the signal for the receiver. I have FrSky receivers where the aerial is length of circuit board where the active section is a flat plane not a wire. Those with long aerials can have the end piece fitted above the superstructure to bring it as high as possible. I would assume that the original poster with his needs of 1/2 mile from shore must be controlling it from the top of a cliff to enable him to see it so it will have a longer range than if he was at sea level. I find a model plane at 1/2 mile is extremely difficult to see even with a large wingspan. In the past we have had a 3 metre span glider at 1200 feet appearing as a dot in the sky. (allowing for distance in 3D probably nearer 2000 feet from the pilot.)
Jim
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JimG

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2021, 08:04:45 pm »

Hi all


I run ic sport power and as such i have all the radio gear in a water tight compartment including the battery i use Spektrum with no problems.
Advice has been given regarding the sighting rx/antenna all right and proper, i was wondering no one as mentioned the introduction of the receivers with no antenna by Spektrun i use one in an electric buggy and one in a ic power boat no problems


Happy Boating madboats
The Spectrum receivers do of course have aerials , the difference is they are inside the case, probably using a track on the circuit board which is the right length for the 2.4 GHz signal.  They seem to work quite well, I know several fliers using them without problems but they will need more care to mount the receiver properly so they are not blanked from the signal which doesn't pass through metal or liquids such as fuel. If used in a boat then mounting them as high as possible would be a good idea.What can often be a bigger problem is the relationship between the transmitter aerial and the receiver aerial/s. 2.4 GHz has a polar signal with the weakest point coming from the end of the transmitter aerial so pointing the aerial towards the receiver is the worst thing to do, why most transmitters allow the aerial to be folded flat. (or use two transmitter aerials at 90 degrees.) Think of the signal as a dougnut shape with the hole along the transmitter aerial. This is why when there are two receiver aerials they are generally positioned at 90 degrees to each other so that at least one of them should pick up a good signal. (I have a jet with a redundant receiver system using 4 aerials with them fully spread out, one going forward, one backwards, one vertically up and the last vertically down so it should pick up a signal from any direction.

Jim
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phillnjack3

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2021, 09:07:09 pm »

So Back to my point.
how far will the 2.4 ghz stuff be good for,say the turnigy stuff for example ?

i remember people thinking these were good ha ha
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phillnjack3

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2021, 09:11:35 pm »

ahh yes Jim i just looked at a transmitter cheapo that has an aerial in the handle built in and the small one that can fold...
how far can you get with the spectrum ?
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2021, 10:08:47 pm »

Surely if you want decent range in adverse conditions maybe it is time to put the 'cheapo' option to rest. All I see is the word cheapskate. If you want decent capabilities, especially for a rescue boat, don't skimp. you will, as sure as eggs is eggs, get what you pay for.
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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2021, 06:33:21 am »

It's all very well saying 'You should always do a range check' but how DO you actually do it?


The only visual item that can tell you if the radio link is working is the rudder (on most models, I do know about Schottel drives etc...) and once you're further away from the model than the point where you can SEE the rudder move, your screwed. That becomes the 'range limit', nothing to do with the radio itself.


I've got a large solid flag thing that attaches to the rudder with a clothes peg, painted white on one side and black on the other, and with that attached I can see which way the rudder's going quite a bit further away than just by watching the rudder itself.


I'd be interested in knowing what others use as a 'range check'.
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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2021, 07:16:39 am »

If you're really bothered about range, get a radio with telemetry so you get data coming back down the link - if you lose telemetry, you've lost control.
For most of my models I always use Hobbyking £16 6-channel basic sets - never had a problem - I don't suffer from stick-envy.

I suspect they use the same output chip across the range - the only differences between sets are the bells & whistles.   
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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2021, 09:23:35 am »

One thing not mentioned so far is that some receivers have short aerials, often just coming out of the receiver box. (Some Spectrum receivers have the aerial internal to the case and provbably use a track on the circuit board) Others have aerial extensions, basically a length of coax cable that takes the actual aerial further away ( the actual aerial is just the end section of coax with the outer ground removed.) The original Spectrum need for satellite receivers was basically due to their short aerials being easily blanked in flight by fuel or metal parts of the plane. With some they have an extra section near the end which acts to amplify the signal for the receiver. I have FrSky receivers where the aerial is length of circuit board where the active section is a flat plane not a wire. Those with long aerials can have the end piece fitted above the superstructure to bring it as high as possible. I would assume that the original poster with his needs of 1/2 mile from shore must be controlling it from the top of a cliff to enable him to see it so it will have a longer range than if he was at sea level. I find a model plane at 1/2 mile is extremely difficult to see even with a large wingspan. In the past we have had a 3 metre span glider at 1200 feet appearing as a dot in the sky. (allowing for distance in 3D probably nearer 2000 feet from the pilot.)
Jim
The working bit of the aerial at both ends is the end inch or so, whether it is a bit of wire inside the case, a stub poking out of the case, or a length of coax with a clear/silvery bit at the end.  Some receivers have a moulding on the outer end - this is not a magic bit of electronics, it is a moulding intended to protect the clear/silvery bit. 
What the receiver gets is whatever the tuned length picks up minus whatever losses might happen down the coax.  Different receivers, in different price ranges, have different capabilities.  These capabilities are based around basic receiver sensitivity and whatever is built into the next stages to sort out the required information into something valid to pass on to the output pins.
Transmitters that have an internal antenna are likely less able to radiate their full power than one with a rubber ducky sticking out, and quite probably less able to get the polarisation right.  Even back in the days of 27MHz, even very experienced modellers had a tendency to aim their aerial rod at their boat, being blissfully unaware that the radio signal comes out sideways.  Its a radio, not a rifle.  When aiming it, you are just ensuring that the receiver is getting the transmitter's null point.  Just the same with 2G4, only more so.
I did read a learned article a long time ago about L shaped transmitter antenna arrays coughing out a corkscrew waveform, which was supposedly capable of, if not going round corners, at least making its way into voids.  There was a couple of pages of mathematical explanation which bounced off the protective layer of double glazing that my eyes provided, but that was the gist.  Whether it has been applied in the real world, no idea.
Fluids can interfere with the signal - a fellow member often gets a telemetry warning (he has a posher set than mine) if he turns round and gets himself between transmitter and receiver.  The human body is mostly fluids.
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JimG

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2021, 10:59:44 am »

It's all very well saying 'You should always do a range check' but how DO you actually do it?


The only visual item that can tell you if the radio link is working is the rudder (on most models, I do know about Schottel drives etc...) and once you're further away from the model than the point where you can SEE the rudder move, your screwed. That becomes the 'range limit', nothing to do with the radio itself.


I've got a large solid flag thing that attaches to the rudder with a clothes peg, painted white on one side and black on the other, and with that attached I can see which way the rudder's going quite a bit further away than just by watching the rudder itself.


I'd be interested in knowing what others use as a 'range check'.
I generally don't bother with range check on boats as I don't run them far enough away, it still works at the far side of our pond. With planes I follow the standard method of putting the transmitter in range check mode then walk away for about 60 metres checking for movement of all control surfaces. My FrSky Tx has signal strength telemetry so also use this during the range check. It's a waste of time range checking in normal mode, others have done range checking over the ground and found at least a half mile range. ( check done by stationary transmitter and the model being carried in a car with communications by walkie talkie.)
Jim
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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2021, 11:17:49 am »

The working bit of the aerial at both ends is the end inch or so, whether it is a bit of wire inside the case, a stub poking out of the case, or a length of coax with a clear/silvery bit at the end.  Some receivers have a moulding on the outer end - this is not a magic bit of electronics, it is a moulding intended to protect the clear/silvery bit. 
With most of these the section at the end is not just there to protect the active aerial end. It is generally a much wider section in from the end and the wire may or may not be exposed. The Hitec Optima receivers actually advertise this section as improving the signal strength and improving range.

Quote
Transmitters that have an internal antenna are likely less able to radiate their full power than one with a rubber ducky sticking out, and quite probably less able to get the polarisation right.
The internal aerials will transmit the same power as an external rubber (or plastic) aerial. If you have ever had the folding aerial break and come off you will find the actual aerial is a length of coax with a short length at the end exposed, basically the same as the receiver aerial. I have seen the actual internal aerial in one transmitter and it is in fact a zig-zag track on the board increasing the actual length of the aerial. As for polarisation the internal aerial is normally horizontal so is the best position if the transmitter is pointed at the model. We need to remember that these transmitters are designed for aircraft where a good range and reliable reception are needed regardless of the planes orientation in the air. Boat use is far too small to have specially designed sets with a few having basically aftermarket modifications for boat use.
Quote
Fluids can interfere with the signal - a fellow member often gets a telemetry warning (he has a posher set than mine) if he turns round and gets himself between transmitter and receiver.  The human body is mostly fluids.
I find this when doing range checks with my FrSky set, this has signal strength telemetry and will warn if I am between the transmitter and the model at normal checking distance. Turning round will bring signal strength back to normal.
Jim
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JimG

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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2021, 11:24:19 am »


I did read a learned article a long time ago about L shaped transmitter antenna arrays coughing out a corkscrew waveform, which was supposedly capable of, if not going round corners, at least making its way into voids.  There was a couple of pages of mathematical explanation which bounced off the protective layer of double glazing that my eyes provided, but that was the gist.  Whether it has been applied in the real world, no idea.

FPV video transmitters and receiver often use what are termed clover leaf antennas, these are intended to produce a circular polarised signal and give better range although more directional. (Their signals at 5.8 GHz generally have a shorter range than 2.4 GHz so need any help they can get. They are also allowed a 25 mW transmitting power although many go illegal using up to 500 mW.

Jim
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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2021, 12:01:08 pm »

Transmitters that have an internal antenna are likely less able to radiate their full power than one with a rubber ducky sticking out,
Fluids can interfere with the signal - a fellow member often gets a telemetry warning (he has a posher set than mine) if he turns round and gets himself between transmitter and receiver.  The human body is mostly fluids.
The ones with internal antenna are radiating almost all of their power into your hands holding and enveloping the transmitter case.   

Having 10 energy-absorbing sausages so close to the Tx o/p means it's amazing there's enough power left to make the link to the model viable.
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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2021, 09:36:00 pm »

The ones with internal antenna are radiating almost all of their power into your hands holding and enveloping the transmitter case.   

Having 10 energy-absorbing sausages so close to the Tx o/p means it's amazing there's enough power left to make the link to the model viable.
Internal antenna are generally mounted at the top of the transmitter , many in the handle, and the main signal goes forwards. Your hands shouldn't be near the antenna. The actual transmitted signal will be the same as when the antenna is external, your hands will be roughly a similar distance from the actual aerial wire.
Jim
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Re: 2.4 GHZ Radio Range
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2021, 11:01:18 pm »

several manufacturers also sell receivers made for carbon fiber sailplanes.  they have extra long 12" to 18" antennas that are meant to be fed external to the fuselage since carbon fiber blocks the 2.4ghz frequencies.  using those, you could mount your receiver in your boat where ever it fits, and still have the working portion of the antenna well above the water line.
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