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Author Topic: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question  (Read 7549 times)

River Model Guy

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Hi there to all you budding Boaters,


A question if I may regarding a size for a radio controlled model cabin cruiser.


Essentially I have been asked to construct a small scale model of a rather lovely old 1932 era, Norfolk Broads cabin cruiser, a famous Delight Class, Designed and built by the famous Herbert Woods, of Potter Heigham.


Since I put out 1:16 Scale model kits back in 2017 of the larger Light Class Cruisers, Ring of Light and Queen of Light, one then customer has pleaded for me to bring out the smallest of the Light Cruiser fleet, Delight. I have no problems making a highly detailed static model, though resisted in doing a radio controlled version since at the same scale, this model would only measure in at 18"(462mm), LOA, with a Beam of 6 1/4"(160mm), and Draft of 1.5"(40mm).


I thought perhaps using light ply frames, 2mm lime planking etc, that she may be a thought.


But I really would like to hear of all your experiences out there with small scale cabin Cruisers specifically, to see if it's really worth it, or coming out of the present scale to 1:12 which would bring the model up to 24" LOA.


I shall try and add a pic of the real thing, a photo taken back in the 1930s, to show her high topsides design, albeit very pretty little cruiser.


I would like to keep the model to 1:16 small scale as that is the request from a chap who wants his little Light Class Fleet complete in the same scale.


Over to your thoughts out there on any aspect.
BTW, whilst waiting for the printers of the little day cruiser planned, this delight class is being drafted up accurately by me in preparation to construct the model.


Kindest to you all, and huge thanks for your thoughts of experience in advance.


Paul
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tonyH

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2021, 11:42:02 am »

What's the actual displacement of the real thing? If you have that you can work back to a target model weight and this will give you the scale.
So, for example, if the real weight is 4 tons (8000lbs approx) then at 1:16 the model would be 8000 divided by 16x16x16 = 2lbs approx which would be workable.
 :-))
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JimG

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2021, 11:47:57 am »

While not a cabin cruiser, I have the KYModels 1/32 scale mooring tug at 13 inch length, 4 1/2 inch beam and 1 1/2 inch draught. This works very well using a 2 4 cell AA packs in parallel. As  a Broads cruiser you will not be needing high speeds so a relatively small motor will do, giving decent running time. Modern radio gear can be very small (1g weight servos) so the weight of the radio gear can be discounted, a micro esc and micro receiver can also be use while the generally lower range of the receivers will not be a problem in your case.
Jim
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River Model Guy

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2021, 11:58:39 am »

Yes many thanks for that vital question.


Indeed I sadly only have original plans for her, drafted on the back of old admiralty charts, but zero on the class all up weights and displacement etc, which is of course a real shame, having said that, with the modern lightweight model Woods available these days, I would imagine a workable floating model not a problem, for the real craft were constructed Mahogany on Oak Keel/Timbers etc.


I could guesstimate a weight based on similar sized craft, at 6 tonnes, but only rough.


What I can tell you is that a 1:16 scale working model of the larger Ring, at 27" LOA was built by the yard as a floating model using 1/4" Oak keel, and 1/16" ply frames, beefed up with 1/4" stringers and 1/16" planking, with an electric motor, no ESC etc back then, but built as an architect model then onwards for Blakes Boating Holidays promotional events, so I suppose at 6" less LOA, this little Delight is perfectly doable, just need to take great care in using 1.5mm frames, beefed up on the outer bulkheads etc.


What do you reckon to that.


Cheers
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River Model Guy

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2021, 12:02:21 pm »

Hi Jim,


Many thanks indeed, a most reassuring thought of your small scale tug boat, as, since again of a displacing type hull, one can relate to the same sensible thoughts.


Yes your quite right Jim of broads Cruisers slow displacement speeds, max 5 knots restricted on the real thing.


My kind regards to lovely Dundee, miss the place.


Paul
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ChrisF

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2021, 12:27:11 pm »

I wouldn't worry too much about the weight of the frames, especially as tmuch of the middle areas can be cut out. Personally I much prefer birch ply to Liteply. The difference in weight will be negligible.

I build my Faireys without any thought of weight saving and they sit bang on the waterline. They are so buoyant that it will take a lot of extra weight to push them down lower!

A build at 18" shouldn't give any problems with regard to RC installation. One of my future builds is a 16' 7" river cruiser at 1:12.

Chris
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River Model Guy

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2021, 12:38:59 pm »

Excellent thanks Chris,


Yes definitely the same thoughts on the birch ply over the lite ply. The birch gives due stiffness as needed against the lite ply, being far too flexible for frames.


Your small craft which work great for you, have given me the final Yes, go ahead at 1:16 scale.


Naturally I will post pics as I progress, for no doubt will be back asking about suitable radio gear at that stage. I reckon the small 375 or smaller motor can go in the fwd cabin, leaving a 300mm shaft and 20mm 3 blade prop to run her nicely. The very large balanced spade rudders that protrude way beyond the transom enable these craft back in the day to turn their own length with ease.


Just drafting up the transom as we speak, coming along nicely on the drawing board from the original sketches I have. Need to complete the detailed drawings by end of next week to get off to Sheffield printers and enable me to press on constructing her.


Many thanks again
Paul
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tonyH

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2021, 02:39:16 pm »

Just beware of the weight and side area above the waterline. You'll know that you aren't likely to have a lot below it! :-))
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River Model Guy

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2021, 03:01:02 pm »

Spot on Tony,


Yes, that I am presently working on the overall top weight with roughly 2/3rds above the waterline I really need to factor that all in, the motor is going in on the keel footings, as will be the battery.


The cabin sides will be 1.5mm mahogany, planking 2mm lime, the internal bulkheads, decks and frames in 2mm birch ply with reinforced areas at the chine etc.[size=78%] [/size]


The fittings I shall be using are all to scale from the previous kits of Queen and Ring of light, I cast them in lightweight materials.


Being a craft that plods along also helps to a slight degree.


Cheers for your thoughts
Paul
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River Model Guy

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2021, 03:04:11 pm »

I meant to add that these craft underwater profiles almost went flat from the chine to the Hogg/Keel at around 2/3rds aft, which of course again all aids in the stabilisation a great deal.
Paul
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JimG

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2021, 05:41:47 pm »

Hi, I've just weighed the tug and it comes in at 1lb 12oz. You're cruiser with its greater length and beam should accept more weight, I'me guessing at least 2 lb. The hull and wheelhouse are resin mouldings, a decent wooden hull should allow for weight savings.
Jim
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John W E

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2021, 06:25:41 pm »


Hi there


Not strictly a cabin cruiser but a small cruiser that I built from The Hobbies Weekly magazine.  The electronics I purchased from ACTion.   The speed controller runs from the receiver power pack so everything is super lightweight and I used a mini-servo for the rudder.   Without actually going to retrieve my model from the loft at the moment - She is 19 inches long and 4 inches beam, made from a mixture of lite ply/berch ply and I diagonally planked it with obechi planks and then overplanked them with 4mm wide x 0.5 mm thick mahogany strips.


Like I say without going in the loft on this hot day :-) to retrieve my model; I know its extremely light, even with the battery in.   So, what you are proposing to do would be quite easy to achieve if care is taken.


I always think of these guys who do the magic plastic conversions.  When you see the Airfix MTB model at 1:72 scale - that is quite an achievement.


[size=78%]Unknown Little Red Boat (modelboatmayhem.co.uk)[/size]


The link above shows the model I built and I am sure on this forum (under the title the year I was born 1955) the build of My Hobbies Model is there somewhere.


John
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River Model Guy

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2021, 09:01:34 pm »

Excellent John, many thanks for the info.


Blimey silly me I should have thought back, I have the same hobbies weekly mags with the plans, the alternative to your masterpiece is the Broads Cruiser "Crusader", which, funnily enough, a few months back I was considering building precise to the plans, for a bit of fun and even with the heavy little Mighty Midget motor I gained through EBay. In fact after reading your reply I rushed into my plans archives and pulled out both Hobbies plans to glance over.


Therefore as you perfectly state, if such a model can be achieved at 19", with a great deal less displacement than the Delight, I should have no real snags.


Quite exciting now, and moving through the drafting up of the lines plans, which needed cleaning up a great deal, but getting there swifto.


I shall not inform the chap whom has requested the model, until all the drawings are 100% complete and her frames are on the baseboard... But looking good as a positive way forward.


Thank god for Model Boat Mayhem, and all you superb guys out there full of mass experience in the world of radio controlled boats.


Huge thanks again
Paul

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tsenecal

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2021, 09:24:08 pm »

if i may link to a different model boat website where i document the creation of a 15" coast guard utility boat, which shares many commonalities with your 18" cabin cruiser.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?774053-Dumas-USCG-41-utb

in addition to that, there are many youtube videos for the original 15" utb from dumas products, upon which this derivative is based...  on of which i will post the first chapter to here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_RvXpbmNk4

my version is vacform plastic, but the original is made of wood, primarily 1/8" ply for the keel and bulkheads, as well as 1/16" plywood for the skins.


my boat actually needs lead added to it to make it float on the water line.  the all wood version, not so much.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2021, 09:49:32 pm »

A look here - http://eezebilt.tk/plans.html - might help.
Modern fittings like batteries, motors, radios, servos and ESCs are much smaller and lighter than they used to be, giving much more freedom in building.  I would only source and fit a Mighty Midget if I really wanted to suffer and put observers off from getting into model boating.  They were knocked off the market for the very good reason that Kako and Mabuchi motors were superior in every respect.  Cost, size and reliability were all better.  More modern motors are easier to suppress making them more suitable for radio.  A MM only had to survive a few trips across a pond before the battery ran out, a radio boat with a modern battery should cruise a good hour.  A motor recovered from a dead CD player will move an 18" long boat quite nicely for over an hour off 4 or 5 AA rechargeables.  Thats an old type player, I am assuming that the wafer thin modern ones have a different platter drive.
Scale models work in full size conditions, which, despite protestations, do scale perfectly.  Just the wrong way for us.  Whatever the assumed scale, speed is divided by the square root of that scale.  To compensate, the wind it is sailing through is multiplied by the same amount from the point of view of the model.
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River Model Guy

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2021, 05:48:18 am »

Many thanks for the details to you both, most interesting information indeed.


Kind regards
Paul
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derekwarner

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2021, 07:14:15 am »


Paul......you may be aware that there is an absolute wealth of knowledge to be found on the Herbert woods WEB-site...Builder of the B74 Delight


It would appear that further detail of the 1930's built vessels, including the offering of plan availability


https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.herbertwoods.co.uk%2Fabout%2Fhistory%2F&psig=AOvVaw0LATCDif0nHetW_WbRZ7xm&ust=1623736167016000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAwQjhxqFwoTCPjs3PS2lvECFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD


She is clearly a displacement hull, my guess is say 38 ft x 12 ft x 2.5 ft and maybe 7 ton?


So it is best to start somewhere  with fact  %) , then scale down


Derek
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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2021, 08:53:24 am »

Using Derek's figures, an 18" model of a 38' boat gives a scale of about 1:25.  7 tons divided by 25 x 25 x 25 is a bit over 1 pound, so lots of attention to weight saving needed.
My 18" conversion of a plastic trawler kit weighs 1 pound 6 ounces ready to sail.  A flat bottomed cabin cruiser has the potential to be built much lighter, but on a small model, everything that weighs anything has a very noticeable effect on trim.
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River Model Guy

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2021, 09:57:27 am »

Just to reaffirm in your calculated predictions,


The real life Delight is 24' LOA, the model at 1:16 scale will be 18" LOA.


Cheers
Paul
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River Model Guy

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2021, 10:31:26 am »

Hi Derek,


Yes thanks fully aware of the new Woods website, however I need to point out that the Delight Class is actually of the following measurements....24' LOA, 8'6" Beam and 2' Draft.


The Delight class were the smaller of the Light Class fleet, then the Ring of Light @ 36' and finally the Queen of light @ 42' LOA.


None of the Herbert Woods fleet of the bygone era of the 30s, were 38'...only the new GRP Cruisers measure in at 38.




After I left the Royal navy to retire, I worked as a boat builder carpenter helping restore an aging wooden hire fleet, and that is where I guessed the rough Displacement at 6/7 tonnes, it's very difficult as some of the old craft, depending on the timbers we came across, were waterlogged holding a great deal of weight, the reason some Cruisers transoms were below the original waterline than drawn up on build.


Cheers
Paul
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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2021, 10:35:20 am »




 At 12 1/2"  length (317.5mm or 31.74cm), Vic Smeed's "Mis Deeds" offers a virtual cavern for fitting todays minuscule electronics. Back in the fifties, a Model Maker construction article showed how to build a TG18 powered bang bang escapement steered model  of a tug 5" (127mm 12.7cm) long.


  Regards  Ian.
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River Model Guy

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2021, 11:03:42 am »

Cheers Ian,


Very reassuring to know that lovely piece of history.


Cheers
Paul
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derekwarner

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2021, 11:29:24 am »

Hullo Paul.....it sometimes takes a few posts for all to understand where the proposed build or design will come from


From this, I believe this could be a very interesting typical build :-))  from an earlier era, where speed was not the ultimate criteria

With your background, I look forward to the research & build thread continuing

Derek


PS....my estimates & displacement were simply that.......a guess from the image of B74........
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River Model Guy

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2021, 11:48:08 am »

Yes thanks Derek,


Since early dawn I have studied the creations of Herbert Woods, such a legend in so many ways of boat building and designs. The modern fleet owe so much to Herbert.


In a bid recently, to check out various craft design against riverbank erosion underway and of various speeds, a few modern Cruisers were used, and God bless Herbert Woods 1932 Queen of light, testament to his superb designs, the Queen left zero wake and no disturbance against the modern craft...


Since the early 60s, I have been on the broads, though 4 yes ago moved away towards Barnsley area, and upon departing Potter Heigham, my wife and I just had to pay one final visit to Herbert Woods grave, and thank him, there he lies in a lovely plot with his wife Maud and their young son John who passed away at a very young age... So sad.




All my life I wanted to recreate the Woods early craft in miniature form, luckily I managed to gain various drawings, early sketches etc by Herbert, with the sole understanding that in any model kits etc, the drawings are not to be passed on, but that was not a problem when we put out the Ring and Queen kits back in 2017,...Now fully retired I am presently only doing the models on a commission basis, but who knows I may go back into the kit production runs next year if the interest is there... Just have to see I suppose.


Kind regards again
Paul
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tonyH

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Re: Minimal Radio Controlled Cabin Cruiser Workable Size - Question
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2021, 01:07:30 pm »

I can see a bit of differential calculus coming out on this one once you've got the drawings done %) Lots of slices of boat but Lord know how I ever did it!
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