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[grendel]

the reason she sits low at the stern is she is ballasted low there, there is probably about 100lb + of lead weights just there, a 3" thickness across the entire stern hull planking, this was because she had been sat stern high and wasnt sitting in the water properly, once the bow water tank was filled she was particularly nose heavy. the owner is the son of a norfolk boat builder, so knows his stuff, once she is out of the water I expect I will take some time off to assist in the repairs, I know the internal cockpit fitout is due some attention, but thats been altered before. she is still light at the stern, in a heavy side wind she turns into the wind as the keel stops just over halfway down from the front, so the back gets blown round.

[River Model Guy]

Interested in what you say relating to the added ballast and Keel.


The original Keel was specifically designed by HW to commence at 1/5th from the stem, cutting into the Hogg aft again at 1/5th..it makes me wonder if negative alterations were made at some stage to her GA, as consequence, completely threw her handling design out.


These craft had the famous reputation of being perfectly handled, in their own length, with perfect ease, in all weathers, weather helm in particular was HW key element in the design. I can therefore fully understand why the pig iron/lead addition from the owners professional father, but of course he will be well aware of the probable constant tweeks in the design her no avail over the years.


I had similar snags on the yacht, and indeed on a couple of Cruisers I worked on as a carpenter for a hire fleet company after leaving the navy... I just had to get to the bottom of the problems in the handling changes, and took it upon myself to seek further advice from a top class architect and again, like your owners father, a top end boat builder of huge reputation... Both came back to me and confirmed my thoughts of the constant design changes over the years, where perhaps someone changed the Keel etc, in turn upsetting the original balanced rudder, or even a prop style change.


This point you raise of WR being 26', although of course not doubting your good self, just does not also sit right,.. HW built all 12 at 24', to add another 2', at some stage, will of course dramatically alter her handling big time.... I would love to know where this additional 2' has been filtered in, and when I wonder for the accurate data I have shows the Delights specs, give or take 6" were minimal... Of course the real changes to the light fleet were that of the enclosed cockpits patented by HW post war.. .. Really fascinating stuff.


The owners father being a highly respected boat builder, will I am sure, knowing him, be really eager to get in there with WR and rip her apart to bring her right up to top class standards eh... Will be lovely I am sure, and good on you, my highest respect for your lending hands in her ongoing care, HW will be looking down smiling no doubt with thanks.


It will be brilliant seeing pieces of her underwater profiles when you do,..


By the way, yes thanks on the model being OK for a small motor etc.. I plan, presently to have the motor in the fwd cabin just on the Hogg, using a 300mm shift and 20 or perhaps 25mm three blade RHT prop, but the water trials will determine which way to go there of course....


Cheers again for all your highly appreciated info on the changes of WR, I just love it...

[River Model Guy]

Thinking further, as you do lol... I would wage a bet previous to your new ownership, that upon discovering rot in her Keel, someone decided to chop out the rot, hence inadvertently cutting away a huge portion of the Keel, not understanding of the damage bestowed on the poor old lady's handling, balance, and so much more... For her Keel to begin 50% from the stem is way off the design.


Cheers again dear fellow
Safe boating, and fine model boating
Onwards and upwards eh


Paul

[grendel]

http://www.broads.org.uk/wiki2018/index.php?title=Style_Details&style=Dlit explains that - Woods probably built thirteen of these craft, very few now survive and although all were quoted as 24ft long in a 1952 catalogue they were all different lengths, with one later quoted as 29ft long!
as for handling, yes I would say that they are very responsive in most weathers, but in may we had quite a blow, and i was crossing Breydon in 2 foot waves, she handled it quite well, but the squalls always took the stern around, i guess I crossed breydon with the wind off the rear port quarter and following tide, and had about 10-15 degrees of helm (as measured at the wheel, nearly 1 spoke round from normal central position to steer a straight course (that day Breydon was shut to hire craft it was that bad) she handled the waves superbly, it was just the weather helm that was a bit off.
As far as I can tell she was built at 26 foot, the prop is about 5 foot in front of the stern (when I was swimming round her, i could just touch it with my foot at full stretch and keep my head out of the water) the ned of the keel is probably about a foot further forward, so thats nearer the 1/4 hull length off the transom the rudder extends about 6 to 8" past the end of the transom, and i believe WR's needs the quadrant turning slightly as its about 15 degrees off dead centre when the rudder is pointed straight, though this may be to fully turn the rudder to starboard for stern moorings as it will go to 90 degrees to the boat in this direction.

[grendel]

the winds were 50 mph with a yellow weather warning that day,
As i said, I dont believe any of the delights (except maybe the first) was built to the plans, in those days they knew what a boat looked like and just built it as they went, if the timber they had for the keel was a bit short, they made it short and adjusted, or made it a foot or so longer if the timber was longer.
I also remember hearing stories that hire boats were sunk in the broads over the war to stop sea planes landing, and that a lot of the transoms suffered particularly, during the war, timber supposedly destined for torpedo boats was squirreled away by some of the boatyards, and it was this that after the war enabled them to repair the rotted transoms and build new boats, so some of the length differences could stem from these days too.

[grendel]

this is partially documented in the history of spark of light - https://www.herbertwoods.co.uk/blog/history-of-spark-of-light/

[River Model Guy]

Ah ha, decent winds ahoy there scuppered, brings me back tacking about Barton Broad with her reefed right down, lovely, over shadowed every cruiser that day, kicking up a few good knots over the ground lol...


Yes I can confirm about the mooring of the craft on Hickling Broad in 1939, recovered late 45/46 were most had sunk, unattended for five yrs sadly.


That's why I mentioned about post WWII changes by HW as what he recovered most parts were only the bow sections, the rest had to be completely rebuilt, but, and this is where I do stand firm of HW designs, the larger 42 lights had 8 to 12" additions, rings etc slightly less, but the designs were retained as close as possible to originals, this was because HW knew of the handling success in his fleet, why then alter them beyond such...


The post WWII changes were the cabin sides light availability where portholes were opened out at every other one to give better light in the cabins, same as for the church windows in the larger craft, opened out to ovals, and the cockpits patented design removing the drop down screens.


HW was meticulous in getting his builds just bang on, all of them at build, he treated every build inaugural cruise like a warship captain taking over a new command, not one rivets out of place. He was a lovely man, firm but fair... But never would he accept builds against his design, never.


I agree where your coming from of boatyards using any item possible to effect repairs mid hire seasons, eg:.. A yachts self tacking jib boom broke, to be replaced, though still balanced with perhaps a yard from a Bure White boat half decker, but history evidence shows HW a real stickler for his designs being kept as such. This detail of evidence follows my own decades of speaking with his closest and boat builders of the past...


I love these solid debates with fellow kern boaters of experience, love it to bits, good old pub banter indeed, but all good..


So there we have it, hey ho, who the heck cut little old White lady WRs Keel short, and who mucked about with her midriff poor old girl.... Ooh I love this... You have really cheered me up no end, from badly missing my time all things Broadland, you have revitalised my enthusiasm for the same, excellent


Cheers 

[River Model Guy]

Sorry, I typed my reply before you posted the link to Spark.
Yes thanks, well up on her history.. She sold for 120K recently, mind u again, I loathe the white painted topsides, each to their own I suppose.


HW Spark/Flash was modelled on his first Light Class Cruiser, Speed of Light, which he first built in 1926, she was the embryo for the class, that class was 34' LOA, then in came Ring at 36', all drew 2' of water with the Delights, only the 42 footers drew slightly more at 2' 6".

[River Model Guy]

Slightly off topic, BTW, are you the chap who constructed the model of BA a few years back, I remember chatting back then, lovely workmanship by the way..


Didn't you have to draft up new lines plans for her, or were you lucky enough to have found an old print.


Some of the other Broads craft design originals I have were kindly passed to me late 80s by Chris Jeckells of Jeckells Sails, was like a treasure to me, they were left to Chris by the various boatyards owners that shutdown, and seeing that my wife and I were doing scale models, passed them on..


I have also some new craft lines plans of the latest broads craft, interesting though they are, never got round to making models of the same.


I have countless plans of HW yachts, dinghies etc, made two, and finally the plans of the famous 1947 Japonica, a nice little RCC yacht still in hire of course.. She turned out nice as a scale model.


You clearly have the same passion all things Broadland Classics lol.


Cheers again
Paul

[River Model Guy]

Sorry again Grendel, just read your post of crossing breydon, must have been fun times.


On your guesstimate of the prop etc positions, yes, the profile drawings I have for the class are the same as for ring, at the aft and stem underwater.. Just measured the scale rudder on the plans and it's drawn in protruding 9", so pretty spot on with your feet lol. Also the drawings show the prop set at 18" from the transom, but with your extra 2' on WR it adds up of her length, which must have been put in post WWII refurbishment, and possibly the mid cockpit area extended... Though you will no doubt have your model based on 26', I am taking the hit keeping B74 Delight first of the class at 24' scaled down.


Cheers again for the first class info
Paul

[River Model Guy]

Grendel, a final thought for zee dear fellow,


That thread mentioned a possibility of 13 Delights built... This thought and similar to the larger of the class, this debate has been going on around Broadland for decades, but to put a finer point to the debate of numbers, HW made name changes to a couple of Cruisers, one is firmed up that owing to a fire in Flash of Light, he changed the name on her first season post refit, but with that in came the Broads/Then Blakes registered number, in the mix up, this new name and Hull number came in, and shown in the Blakes Jollidays books, having people speculate he built more than first registered, but clearly not the case, this was also the same for Prince of Light, again name change, but still the same original numbers built. It even took some time for the archives of Herberts Daughter and boat builder grandson some time to work it all out when I went through it with them in detail, as I had to be sure the scale model kits I were producing with the names available in each class were bang on correct, or would have caused big snags you'll understand.




Hope that helps somewhat, but I note still the debate goes on around the Broads... HW looking down smiling, as only he knows when and why lol.

[grendel]

Yes I am the chap that made the Broad Ambition model (well 2 of them actually, one for me and one for the owners), still working on final touches on the owners model, lights etc and have just got a sample of the new upholstery material to make the cockpit cushions with. i drew up the plans and lines from photographs and actual measurements.
apparently Griff has met someone who claims to have the original plan for Broad Ambition, but its never come to daylight yet.
Yes I have a great fondness for the Broadland woodies, when I hired it was always from Marthams, then when the chance of the buddy scheme on Water Rail came along, it was just so perfect an opportunity.

[River Model Guy]

Wow, good on you for taking on the buddy scheme of WR. Do u plan to bring her name back to original, and replace her Star etc, or keep her as is at WR.


Well we then spoke way way back briefly when you constructed your first BA model, and I have to say a real cracking job you made of her too, should have gone into the model engineer exhibition for a deserved award.


When I put out the plans for a venture to provide scale model kits of classic Broads Yachts and Cruisers, still serving in the Military, it seemed a foregone conclusion of the market research I conducted that the business was to be a real winner.... Everyone jumped for joy, wanting a model, seemingly the price was not a concern.. Based upon this we went ahead and brought out a large scale yacht in 2005, at 1/8 scale of the Farrington 30, measuring in at 46". We sold a few, even one went out to the US, we then sold a 1:8 scale dinghy which again sold but not big figures,... We had two highly praiseworthy articles written by a writer and model boat enthusiast for the model press, upon those articles coming out we thought would generate mass enquiries, but still minimum interest, even though we kept quality very high and costs very low barely covering all.


I got an appointment with the navy to the far east and so we of course ceased trading, as it was pointless farming out the venture with such a small odd trickle of orders coming in, if at all by then, even though everyone who took on our kits were highly praiseworthy.




Moving on a decade, and nearing the end of my service time, wondering what 2nd career would be good, I decided to reinvesting the business, and again put out research to see what we could offer better. It came in that smaller, though still high quality, not semi scale, models moreso of broads Cruisers, would be highly attractive to people, not just model boaters. So, from Model Yacht Design we drew up Broadland Classics, thinking a hit with a variety of choice.. The 42 and 36 famous light classes, and one yacht the Japonica... But each kit supplied with a scale kit of the dinghy Timorese, even with its own little lug sail... Therefore two kits in one, every conceivable item was supplied bar paint to complete the kits, and we kept the price as low as possible, making just £50 on each, which actually came in on the books at zero once our added costs showed up, so no profit, but this was to be an 18 month trial period only.


We had a trickle, if that of orders, and all those that screamed of wanting a kit, never came forward, it was only ever from people that never made a kit before in their lives, interestingly each customer made first rate jobs following our instruction manuals. Their praise of our kits could not have been better, but still no grounds to run a viable business from.. Conclusion, it goes to show, that whilst the world has a wish for a product in some cases, simply a dream. We therefore wound up Broadland Classics as was.


Soon after we had the odd flutter of enquiries for models of certain craft hired etc.. I


Now, it's clear looking at forums, whenever I post something of Broads craft models, the viewing interest is really negligible compared with other topics. One chap said he wanted one of our kits, but the price was too high, nothing we could sadly control.


Therefore now retired my wife and I have moved on an constructed a purpose built Hobby House in our garden, we love it, and are simply focused upon, yes more broads Classics, but for that lovely museum of the future, and the odd private commissions. As where not one model boater has asked for a kit here or through other forums, tells us selling kits of Broadland Classics is not a winner in any way, just no where near as popular as we were led to believe.


People seem delighted with semi model kits like the Sea Commander and Queen often referred to as Broads Craft, clearly our thoughts on the subject are way off the mark, hey ho, one learns the expensive way eh...


We even put out Half Hull detailed models of the same, still zero interest.


Still adore the construction of Broads Craft for ourselves.


There you have it dear fellow.


Paul

[grendel]

I can understand, the second model of Broad Ambition is being made at cost only for the owners, me donating the time I have spent over 4 years making the model, they paid for materials for both models, and still it has worked out over £700, factor in time and the cost would be prohibitive, but then I am doing it for my enjoyment. there is a niche market out there, but people want a model at a fraction of the cost in time or materials, and made up too, not many people want to spend the time to build a kit, or even less to do what we have done and build from scratch. its a big investment in time and money, my incentive was that it was an affordable way to own my own wooden boat, a realisation that has in a way been fulfilled by my buddy share in WR, it is my belief that the name will stay, as she has spent more of her life with that name than otherwise.

[River Model Guy]

All makes perfect sense buddy in all you state.


Yes prohibitive costs indeed.


Here's the icing on the cake thing, even the owners, pretty rich guys I would guess, we're not even interested in purchasing scale model replicas, which I was prepared to fully construct, just them to front up material costs,  of their Light Class craft, that was Queen and Prince, which really dropped me into reality upon the close of Broadland Classics. I thought excellent PR for all concerned as they run river tours, but still zero uptake.


I am doing a model concurrent with Delight, of Happy Days, a 1:12 scale model of a rather nice forward drive Broads Day boat design by HW for George Formby back in 1950. As a piece of difference, it will be interesting to see thoughts in this forum of its style. We shall see eh dear fellow.

[River Model Guy]

You'll smile at this one too.... I acquired a lovely working large scale model that was built way back in 1930 by Johnsons Yacht Station in Acle, as a functional display model for Blakes Holidays/Jollidays head office in 22 Newgate Street, London, for viewing to the public of Broads Cruiser Cirrus... Just before lock down in Autumn 2019, I thought it would be lovely for the model, lovely detail throughout, to go back to its original birthplace... I sent an email with piccys to Johnsons, only asking for a small return donation which was destined for the Museum of the Broads, gobsmacked, the owners came back with zero interest whatsoever.. I then called them as I were more than interested to know why no interest in such a historic model... Answer, because we are only interested in modern builds etc etc... Left amazed, I thanked them and have retained the model, which one day I am sure will find its way the the lovely museum upon my passing, together with my collection.


There you go another gobsmacking thought of a reality check.


Cheers

[grendel]

the reason she sits low at the stern is she is ballasted low there, there is probably about 100lb + of lead weights just there, a 3" thickness across the entire stern hull planking,

well, now I am aboard, i have checked and there are 6 large ingots of lead in the stern, a quick guesstimate is each is about 25 lbs or more.
i have taken some pictures which I will upload when i get home, but for instance did you know the windscreen slides down and forward, the tracks for this being in the side rails, and there are 2 pins in the screen each side as guides that run in the rails, I will get some more pictures next time i lower the screen, as its currently raining.

[River Model Guy]

Excellent mate,


I do hope the dreaded weather is being kind to you on board. What's the passage plan for today then.


Yes it's both very strange of the weighting down of her rear end, and of course way out of her design. Very strange indeedy.


Yes I was aware of her Windscreen design cheers, this was the original HW patented design for the Delights, and of the larger craft had a plainer afair, that quadrant and block system in the steering was his design too, following which many others followed suit.


As the model I am constructing follows the original 1930 design, I will be having the all side canvas drop downs for her cockpit, having said that, it may be good at some point to construct a post WWII model, so to see that detail for future would be good indeed.


I have also been very busy transferring the frames and keel onto card, where tomorrow I will cut out the card, and assemble simply to double check the lines flow nicely between frames, before cutting into the 2mm ply frames etc.


All the timber etc I ordered from Hobbies Shop in Beccles arrived safely, so I can press on. Photos of progress to follow next week dear fellow.


Your one lucky chap out there on board WR, amongst the lovely settings of the Broads. Where do Adam and Kate keep WR moored BTW.


Safe trip, looking forward to the piccys
Paul

[grendel]

I was at wroxham today, South Walsham last night Bridge broad tonight.
Ah, I see why you might not have got a reply to your enquiries, WR is currently owned by a chap named Dave and is moored up in Oulton Broad. weather, well not the best but I am making the most of it

[River Model Guy]

Oh I get it now, Adam and Katie sold her on... Then they really should have removed her from their website by now, rather naughty that leaving her on.

Never knew she was now down the southern end of the broads, by heck.



Sounds a good trip, We used to Moor up on a wild mooring on the mouth just opposite St Benets, then walk the dogs down the towpath to South Walsham, and the opposite direction to Upton, great fun.


Shame about the weather for u, last week u would have been basking in the hot sun on deck...


Enjoy and safe trip.

[grendel]

ok as promised, some detail pictures

[grendel]

and some more

[grendel]

and yet more

[grendel]

still more to come

[grendel]

yet a few more, its the little details thay I feel make a model.