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Author Topic: HMS Glorious 1917  (Read 3972 times)

raflaunches

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2021, 12:08:27 am »

Hi Colin


Completely agree- they were the biggest con that Fisher ever played but aesthetically they were pleasing looking ships but completely useless for the task given to them- the loss of both ships so early in the Second World War was due to incompetence and lack of experience with modern warfare. Iíve seen some renditions of Glorious and Courageous as modernised light battlescruisers in an alternate time line and they look impressive but in reality they would have suffered like the Graf Spee did from weak armour and damage caused by their own guns.
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Nick B

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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2021, 07:53:22 pm »

It is interesting how elastic the definition of 'battlecruisers was. The Glorious class,although officiially classified as 'large light cruisers' on the basis of their belt prorection were also considered to be sort of light battlecruisers on the basis of their armament. The Renowns were essentially under armoured battlecruisers with their weak belts.

I have just been re reading Gary Staff's excellent book on German Battlecruisers of WW1. These ships were amazingly robust and absorbed an incredible amount of damage without sinking initially but it was just sheer luck that Seydlitz and Derfflinger made it back to port and didn't suffer the same fate as Lutzow.

Whilst the British battlecruisers proved vulnerable to magazine explosion due to faulty ammunition supply practice the ships themselves proved very resistant to the smaller calibre German guns. Tiger took a great deal of punishment and remained in action although she didn't have much success in hitting the enemy.

Generally, armour plating was very good at keeping shells out while the German torpedo bulkheads were very successful in limiting damage.

At the RN Explosion Museum at Portsmouth there are examples of the various shell sizes and the difference between the 11 and 12 inch shells and the 15 inch ones is quite an eye opener. The 15 inch shell was around twice the weight of the 12 inch and the photos in Staff's book show just how much damage it could do when it exploded properly (which was not always the case).

Colin
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2021, 11:21:41 pm »

I remember reading the same book, the interesting points of weakness on most German vessels seemed to be the steering gear and strangely the bow torpedo hatch which reduced the overall speed of the ship. Makes you wonder if the German designers had taken out the pointless bow tube how much more effective they would have been on an already excellent design.
I wonder how much better Glorious and Courageous would have been as a design if they had 12 inch guns instead and have an extra turret but that wording by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1915 stating that no ships bigger than a light cruiser could be built led to that devious mind that Fisher had calling them Large Light Cruisers!
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Nick B

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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #53 on: August 15, 2021, 11:28:14 pm »

I feel privileged to live within twenty minutes from that lovely model in an equally fine museum. I used to go once a year and used to enjoy ten minutes of studying the model. It was only ruined once when a Grand Dad walked past with his little Grandson and proudly said that's the Hood Theo!


My mind instantly split into two, the 'It doesn't matter as Theo was unlikely to know what Hood was so don't comment' half fighting the 'For Cripes sake, it isn't the Hood, look at the Big Gun and aircraft, It's HMS Furious! half  %% %% [size=78%]. [/size]

[size=78%]Passers by must have thought I had a nervous tick! That was a couple years after hearing a similarly proud Grandfather [/size][size=78%]pointing out the 'King Panther' [/size][size=78%]to his grandson at Bovington. [/size]

[size=78%]He was a Wiley and uber political chap Fisher, but at least he gave us the Dreadnought and Battle Cruisers and a better understanding of Subs and Torpedoes and advocated aviation in the Navy. [/size]
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2021, 10:11:02 am »

Really nice looking hull and excellent progress!


I look forward to more pictures


Cheers


Geoff
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warspite

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2021, 10:56:46 am »

I being not that bothered what people think would have said to Theo - grandad needs to go to specsavers, he can't even read the label of what ship it is  ;D
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Akira

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #56 on: August 16, 2021, 01:38:21 pm »

"I being not that bothered what people think would have said to Theo - grandad needs to go to specsavers, he can't even read the label of what ship it is "  %% %% %%
I love it when I take my destroyer to the lake and and some mom or dad comes along with a toddler and says" Oh, look at the Battleship!", or when they look at my submarine and ask what it is. Sometimes I feel like saying that it is my trained baby whale.....

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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #57 on: August 16, 2021, 02:21:15 pm »

And if it isn't painted grey then it's the Titanic.

Colin
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Akira

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #58 on: August 16, 2021, 02:30:50 pm »

NOW I have to tell everyone that those Coast Guard ships are really icebergs! {-)
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #59 on: August 17, 2021, 07:46:38 pm »

Start of the second sheeting- this time using 1/32Ē birch faced marine plywood cut into 2x2.5Ē rectangles with the longest length cut allowing the grain to run across the shorter length or width. This allows the ply to naturally follow the curvature of the hull easier. We try to overlap the initial layer of planks so they donít end at the same point thus avoiding a potential weak point. Itís not perfect and filler and sanding is still needed to get a smooth finish that looks correct. We are, of course, using thick type of superglue used in the kitchen cabinet making industry which allows about 10 secs of play and usually stays stuck! We have started on the most difficult sections of the hull getting them to fit first and cutting in the easier section around them.
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Nick B

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dodes

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #60 on: August 17, 2021, 08:25:58 pm »

Reference Colin's remarks about the weakness off the anti flash doors etc, it has since came out that the Admirals of the day got approval to double the amount of ammo carried, as they believed in rapid fire than accuracy. Consequence the shells could be accommodated but not the extra cordite bags which were even stowed in the barbets, also the anti flash doors were pinned open all the time to enhance speed off delivery, the armoured cruisers that disappeared in smoke it was said they had cordite cases on deck. The DNC of the day stated he believed our ships should have been able to take alot more damage than they did.
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dodes

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #61 on: August 17, 2021, 08:27:55 pm »

Forgot to say Nick, i am really looking forward to see your creation at Wicksted.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #62 on: August 17, 2021, 08:30:37 pm »


Nice to see the Elfs hard at work! 
   ;D
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #63 on: August 17, 2021, 08:44:51 pm »

Hi Dodes and Martin


Iím keeping him busy  :-))
Fingers crossed she will be more than a hull by the time Mayhem comes around next year.
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Nick B

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #64 on: August 17, 2021, 09:19:25 pm »


 ..... 2 hulls?!    {-)
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #65 on: August 17, 2021, 09:24:54 pm »

 :}  Three if Iím lucky by May next year! {-)
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Nick B

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NickelBelter

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2021, 01:09:31 am »

A very inspiring build, can't wait to see the hull completed!
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Geoff

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2021, 11:00:37 am »

A very interesting method of hull construction as I assumed the next stage would be fiberglass. I am watching with interest as I have a very large hull planned!


As regards flash doors and ammunition. There are a number of factors here - firstly peace time stowage was less than war time and this was known and planned for. During the first two battles, Falklands and Dogger Bank which involved the battlecruisers feedback from German survivors commented on the low rate of fire. As a result Beatty instructed the battlecruisers to increase their rate of fire and didn't really care how. As a result they fixed open the magazine doors and opened flash protections and believe in some cases removed them and stockpiled ammunition in the turret trunks.


We need to differentiate between "ammunition" as with big guns shells and cordite are separate elements and are not combined until loaded into the breach. British cordite also had a black powder envelope to facilitate spread between the charges and it became a "crime" for a charge to reach the gun house without the paper envelope being open! So there was also loose black powder about as well. In aggregate this is almost certainly what caused the ships to blow up. Excessive stockpiling of cordite by the crew - basically criminal negligence! After the battle Beatty put about the theory of inadequate protection which was much more palatable that gross negligence.


Examination of the wrecks, particularly of Invincible's aft turret showed cordite charges where they should not have been.


All very sad.


Cheers


Geoff
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ballastanksian

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2021, 04:17:41 pm »

Isn't it  <:(


I recall that Steve will sand and fair his hull with vigour and enthusiasm before giving it a good coating with White Gloss Paint inside and out.


My mucous surfaces really hate Cyano these days, its like having bad Hay fever and so avoid it when possible. Good ventilation does alleviate symptoms though.


She's looking fab Steve and Nick :)

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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2021, 09:43:19 pm »

An interesting point about Glorious is that her initial crew was apparently largely made up of the survivors from HMS Warrior after Jutland.

Colin
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HMS Invisible

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #70 on: August 22, 2021, 12:22:25 am »

A photo subtitled "HMS Glorious probably at Scapa Flow during the Great War" made me chuckle. Link to MaritimeQuest.com

I took a guess at the date and anchorage location but not, of course, from which ship's deck the photo was taken.

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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #71 on: August 22, 2021, 07:17:18 pm »

More progress on the port side- second layer of the ply 99% completed. Still needs filling and sanding but we will do that after the starboard side is done.


Hi Colin
Didnít realise that the crew were mainly made up by the former crew of the unfortunate armoured cruiser Warrior. I wonder what they thought of their new ship?


Hi HMS Invisible
Itís interesting how many pictures survived but with lack of detail as you mentioned actually helpful information on dates are lost. Luckily good researchers like RA Burt managed to record the refits and mods so thankfully I can probably date these pictures a little better using his book.
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Nick B

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Colin Bishop

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #72 on: August 22, 2021, 07:37:49 pm »

Quote
Didnít realise that the crew were mainly made up by the former crew of the unfortunate armoured cruiser Warrior. I wonder what they thought of their new ship?

I came across it when reading Richard Osborne's book:

https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Voices-From-the-Past-The-Battle-of-Jutland-Kindle/p/12629

The nature of crews manning warships is not all that well known. HMS Tiger had a reputation of being a not very efficient ship with poor gunnery but it appears that her crew was actually of poor quality and cobbled together to get her into commission as soon as possible. A shame really as the ship herself was a big improvement on the Lion class and withstood a lot of punishment at Jutland. Also she was the best looking of the battlecruisers until her mainmast was relocated.

Colin

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HMS Invisible

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2021, 09:16:20 pm »

...
Hi HMS Invisible
Itís interesting how many pictures survived but with lack of detail as you mentioned actually helpful information on dates are lost. Luckily good researchers like RA Burt managed to record the refits and mods so thankfully I can probably date these pictures a little better using his book.


I have not been to Scapa Flow but I know the geography well enough so my guess was 5th November 1918 on the Forth estuary the moment I saw it.
The same aspect and coastline feature appears in the W L Wyllie print here.  It is from a ship deck and I doubt anyone was taking photos, nevermind painting  :} ,until the weather had calmed.
My grandfather took a photograph of HMS Campania from HMS Glorious, not from deck level so no detail in the foreground.
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raflaunches

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Re: HMS Glorious 1917
« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2021, 07:59:49 pm »

More progress on HMS Glorious. Second layer of plating done with the exception of the bow which will have a brass strip to reinforce the area- if she is going to ram something let it be done properly! {-)
Post pictures we are rebuilding the rudder/keel area as it doesnít look right so itís being cut down and redone so it looks smaller. :-))
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Nick B

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