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[Tug Fanatic]

Traditional filament light bulbs are very good at turning electricity into heat + light.

LED's are very good at turning electricity into light without much heat.
 
The above explains why LED's are pushed forward BUT in the winter, which is when I have by far the most hours on my light bulbs, I heat my house. The heat from the old filament bulbs is not wasted but rather helps with the total heating requirement. As the filament bulbs produce nothing but heat & light they are near 100% efficient if you want both. The boiler that I must use if my light bulbs doesn't produce heat is around 70% efficient with a lot of heat going straight out of the exhaust into the atmosphere.

Are LED benefits simply overstated by ignoring the old filament bulb contribution to heating the house?

I realise that the LED's are better in the summer, when I don't have the lights on very much anyway, but in the winter I am not sure. If I take the total winter heat + light power consumption do they actally save anything?

[Colin Bishop]

It's a good point and one I have heard before.

Another thing to consider is manufacturings costs. Filament bulbs are just glass and a few bits of inert metal - cheap as chips. LED lights need electronics to step down from 230 volts to the small voltage they actually operate on.

On the other hand, LEDs reduce the load on the National Grid by ransferring the heat demand to the gas network (unless you use electric heating). But then more gas is needed....

You can go round in circles forever.

Colin

[tonyH]

Surely in the winter you should be heating you, which is sense, rather than the house, which is a waste ?
Cheap as chips eh Colin! Not energy wise to produce.

[Rich griff]

We all need better home insulation and solar panels on our roofs.


A wind turbine in the garden would be good but then the community will only moan about the noise, unless the community has them in Thier gardens.


High rise accomodation is slightly different but each dwelling with have windows...some windows have pv inbuilt.


A change in thinking is needed.


Remember the early energy bulbs, packed with mercury, that went to landfill probably...


How are modern led bulbs recycled I wonder...

[Tug Fanatic]

I

..................................On the other hand, LEDs reduce the load on the National Grid by ransferring the heat demand to the gas network (unless you use electric heating). But then more gas is needed....

Colin

We use oil heating as there is no gas in the village. This is fine except that it is not a regulated market so whilst gas/ electric have controlled price increases with oil you have to pay the going price in full.

I remember being told that whilst the life of LED's is very long the controllers have a much shorter life which is why LED's fail. The enormous life quoted for LED's is not for the whole product!

[HMS Invisible]

Traditional filament light bulbs are very good at turning electricity into heat + light.

LED's are very good at turning electricity into light without much heat.
 
The above explains why LED's are pushed forward BUT in the winter, which is when I have by far the most hours on my light bulbs, I heat my house. The heat from the old filament bulbs is not wasted but rather helps with the total heating requirement. As the filament bulbs produce nothing but heat & light they are near 100% efficient if you want both. The boiler that I must use if my light bulbs doesn't produce heat is around 70% efficient with a lot of heat going straight out of the exhaust into the atmosphere.

Are LED benefits simply overstated by ignoring the old filament bulb contribution to heating the house?

I realise that the LED's are better in the summer, when I don't have the lights on very much anyway, but in the winter I am not sure. If I take the total winter heat + light power consumption do they actally save anything?

No they are not a con. The boiler may be 70% efficient but a unit of gas would be 3p where electricity would be 16p. 
The arithmetic is pretty simple once you get the equivalent unit cost for oil.

[roycv]

Hi many went down the halogen lighting route years ago and we had about 25 flush ceiling GU10 type holders.  They run at 200+ C but that heat mainly goes into the void above the ceiling.  I changed out all of these for LED lighting about 10 years ago. 

Saved a over a kilowatt of total lighting power.  However when I was doing the change out I found many of the metal holders had distorted with the heat and the bulbs were very difficult to fit and replace and of course still are.
I know you said you did not have gas but for those with gas boilers the cost per watt equivalent is about a third of electricity as has been mentioned.
I have read also of integrating a plugged in electric car battery with the house requirements, another nutty idea as the losses of charging a battery and then using unused car battery power and then recharging it again almost doubles the cost of the car electricity.

I think the idea of using incandescent lighting has a point but I would look to some sort of heat reflector downwards to feel it and this might interfere with the cooling of the light bulb.  To have a small fan recirculating this heat might work but the fan requires power as well.
Many years ago I had access to the library at Building Research (about 40+ years)  and I read up on Heat Pumps the recommendations were to avoid buried pipes in the garden you end up with a solid frozen garden.

They demonstrated Air units and flowing water was another source.  I believe that current ideas on Heat pumps can only supply a maximum of 55 degs C and radiator circulating water is at 82 degrees C so if using Heat pumps a larger radiating surface is needed.
Hot water from your tap via gas boilers is regulated at 55 degrees C.  Not sure I want boiling water as per some TV adverts, could be a genuine H&S problem.
regards
Roy

[Stan]

Sadly you can discuss the pro and cons but the old style bulbs are thing of the past. Go into any electrical wholesaler not a bulb in site we have to get used to the fact L E D lighting will only get more pronounced in the coming years. All to do with climate change.

[tonyH]

Don't forget the poor, lonely, oven bulb. Still sitting on the shelves with it's curley bit of tungsten, just waiting to illuminate your burned chips

[tsenecal]

I live in an area where it snows a lot in the winter.  all the new LED street signal lights have been retrofitted with heaters because the LED bulbs will ice over.  the original lights generated enough heat to  melt the ice that would build up.

[Tug Fanatic]

No they are not a con. The boiler may be 70% efficient but a unit of gas would be 3p where electricity would be 16p. 
The arithmetic is pretty simple once you get the equivalent unit cost for oil.

Point taken but I was really referring to the "green" claims rather than the cost of operating them.

[malcolmfrary]

Incandescent bulbs did produce a lot of heat that, if they were replaced by LEDs, would need to come from somewhere else.  Same with replacing a CRT TV with a modern flat screen.  The old telly was a fine 500 watt room heater, its loss would be invisibly taken up by the central heating compensating, either burning more gas or using more of whatever it was running on.
As to what the total life carbon consumption of LEDs vs Filaments, its probably fairly marginal.  Whichever way, as a bill paying consumer, what matters to me is what the product costs me in total.  LEDs are more expensive to buy, but last longer and use less money while doing their job.  Whether they last long enough to pay back their initial cost remains to be seen. 
Anyway, I still have a box of curly fluorescent tube bulbs that were offered by my then electricity supplier when they were the coming fad.  I do not intend to drop them into landfill unused, that really would be anti-green waste.

[roycv]

I have 'boldly' changed LED GU10 bulbs while in the 'on' state and they are warm to the touch.  I have recently replaced existing kitchen ceiling (240 volt) lighting with 7.8 watt LED and they are really bright, but I can now see detail etc. When they fail they do not just go out sometimes there is a bright flash and some just glow when switched off(!).  Some start intermittent twitching and you know they won't last much longer.

 I think I am compensating for the beginning of eyesight and cattaract problems.  There are 10 kitchen ceiling lights and even I do not need more than 4 on at the same time.  I think these are the equivalent of 80watt incandescent.
There are not many of the original LEDs left in the house as they each had 80 tiny leds which gradually flicked off.  But the CFLs last very well although I found myself using very expensive ones (£15 each) which were bought at a £1 each from a pound shop. 

When one of them failed I was shocked at the retail price but they came with a 3 year guarantee and an email to Osram did the trick and they kindly sent me 2 replacements, the fitting unit has 5 of them!  The bulb design was rather fanciful and they looked good in an IKEA ceiling fitting which had not previously been used.  Don't think they make them anymore.

I have just done a count and I have 20 CFL lights plus 29 LED and 6 old type bulbs (cooker, hob extractor, etc). 

CFL = compact fluorescent lighting.

When buying LED lights do check the description as some have just a 36 degree spread of light and for ceilings I use 90 - 120 degrees spread.  Also they come in many temperature ranges from warm white to daylight.  I ended up always using daylight.  Some LEDs have multiple surface mount yellowy coloured LEDs they (show white when on).  Many now have a single LED.
I have used ANYLAMP on the Internet, as local stores double the price of on-line prices.  They have someone to talk to if there is a problem, I think they are Dutch/English.
regards
Roy

[roycv]

Hi Malcolm the free issue of curlies was a tax dodge by the electricity supply companies, mostly useless, and I think they were fined for trying to find a way of avoiding paying tax.
Roy

[Colin Bishop]

Public recycling centres should take compact fluorescents as they do fluorescent tubes. That's where I took mine.Those curly things were dim and horrible.

Just to throw something else into the mix: as you enter your dotage you usually need higher light levels to reduce eyestrain, especially when reading. (and night driving becomes more problematical too)

Colin

[Stan]

HI all once again we find our selves on this continual loop flogging a dead horse L E D technology is here to stay. After all we all fit L E D  in our models. Is it time to switch this topic off? 

[Tug Fanatic]

yes LED technology is here to stay.
As it is an idea put forward via politicians I feel very free to question & debate the issue.
Feel free not to participate.

[malcolmfrary]

yes LED technology is here to stay.
As it is an idea put forward via politicians I feel very free to question & debate the issue.
Feel free not to participate.

Yes.  It is the latest in a string of eco-fads that various politicians and their advisers dream up from time to time.  In a few years there will be yet another rabbit pulled out of the hat which will probably give more light for less energy, but will have (probably) a yet bigger hidden downside along the line.
Just a bit annoyed that I had almost figured out how to take a filament out of its glass packaging, wrap it in woven flame retardant insulation, soak it in oil and use it as a smoke unit when you stopped being able to buy the things.  Day late, dollar short.

[Colin Bishop]

As Stan and TF say, LEDs are here to stay but their advantages are not always so clear cut as is made out. I saw a report the other day which says that LED streetlights are detrimental to wildlife as they mimic daylight unlike the older type lights. This causes distress to birds, animals and nocturnal insects so be careful what you wish for.

As ever, the law of unintended consequences applies.

Colin

[Stan]

HI Tug Fanatic I have no wish to upset you our stop you from making further comments on a subject that you care about. But like you I am entitled to air my views. Sorry if my posts have caused offence.

[NickelBelter]

I just like not having to change bulbs on a monthly basis.   

[grendel]

I have changed my incandescent bulbs in the fridges with their LED equivalents, and that saves on both the electricity consumption by the bulb, plus the fridge is working less hard to keep cool. I have LED's replacing the halogen spots in the kitchen, and they are brighter, and since I had the cavity walls done i only need one small radiator on in th winter, so wouldnt really appreciate the extra heat given out by incandescents.

[Subculture]

I saw a report the other day which says that LED streetlights are detrimental to wildlife as they mimic daylight unlike the older type lights. This causes distress to birds, animals and nocturnal insects so be careful what you wish for.

As ever, the law of unintended consequences applies.

LED lighting can be tuned anywhere in the colour spectrum. White LED's are essentially blue LED's and integrate a yellow phosphor cap to tune the spectrum into white light, the greater the cap the warmer the white. Some manufacturers are using Quantum dots to do this, e.g. Osram, these are much more efficient and give a very finely tuned spectrum.

A cooler more blueish hue tends to be chosen for street lighting to improve visibility. If it's a problem for the wildlife then the colour can be tweaked but any form of artificial lighting tends to disturb animals to some extent.

[chas]

We also have to remember that lots of people live in warmer places where waste heat is the last thing we want. The energy saving from led lights has made a noticable difference to my useage. Multiply that by billions of people, and the planet is saving a lot of power, with all the benefits that includes.

[RST]

I look at it this way:

• I don't like flush fit ceiling downlights -they're almost alays such a small spot of light and as I wear glasses I've yet to find any downlight or combination of glasses that doesn't just reflect in a star pattern!  Also, they seem to just put too much heat just up above where its wasted
  Curly CFD:  Going through this with my mother who still wants some incandescent bulbs.  Explained both aren't really common any more but CFD saved a fortune at 7 or 8 watts over 40 or more on an incandescent.  I do agree, early CFD didn't have much light first-off but they seem to have improved much over the years.  Even an extra light on now -or one more purposeful is nowhere near the same wattage as before

LED VS CFD:  Well in terms of energy I don't see the return in 2 houses from swapping CFD for LED.  We've been going from something like 7 or 8W to something like 4 or 5W.  The saving in energy was going from 40W+ incandescents[/li][/list]
ROI -Not sure yet, we went from constant incandescent change-outs to less with CFD, just as CFD seem to last longer LED lamps come along but they cost way more.  I worked out ROI sometime a couple of years ago and it didn't warrant full change-out in fact my Mother asked and I said simply do NOT change-out a bulb until it's blown[/li]
[li][/li]
[/list]

• I believe if we're counting the difference between incidental heat then we're battling folk incisting on buying an incandescent bulb, 2" diameter and paying in old shillings / pence or whatever
  For the incandescent bulb in my fridge -I am pretty sure my lamp switches off when I close the door and I don't have the door open long -I am not sure the saving in energy is that big unless you haven't got one of those door switches fitted

For the street lamps I must admit I don't like the swap-over from orange to white for no reason other than being used to it apart from the new lamps have far less illumination on the ground.  We interfere with wildlfe constantly so no streetlamps are the only way to combat that and between something like 1 and 4am I don't understand why the output isn't reduced or switched-off somehow.  I'd also welcome a complete ban on lighting of any and all commercial and domestic property exterior walls overnight -we must be able to save many terawatts of unnecessary energy usage very simpley because we will mostly be asleep and will never know the difference.

Just a bit annoyed that I had almost figured out how to take a filament out of its glass packaging, wrap it in woven flame retardant insulation, soak it in oil and use it as a smoke unit when you stopped being able to buy the things.  Day late, dollar short.

...erm you mean the Seuth smoke burners which are still available, or do you mean incandescent bulbs for a DIY job?