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Author Topic: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger  (Read 5855 times)

Backerther

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2021, 05:45:15 am »

I posted here my experience of rather heavy and slow RC tank that was mostly enclosed by hot steel hull in the mid-summer,
which conditions were terrible for a 2-stroke glow engine to run the tank.
For this background,I chosen an engine for RC helicopter with a bigger heatsink for the first time in vain. {:-{ :((
Therefor,at this point I gave it up to stick to air cooling with no air flow fundamentally inside the tank mostly enclosed.
I was obliged to go to water cooling at this time as final method to run the tank in the mid-summer and it went very well
consequently. The system was rather troublesome as it needed some auxiliary components to cool the engine ,BUT I found it so effective to cool.!
I intended to put much emphasis on water cooling itself as so effective way to cool,referring to my experience of the RC tank.
Needless to say,it must be the best if salty water could be available for cooling the motor with less maintenance.! O0


1/2;Water cooling with outside water is the best, if it's available,to say nothing of.! :-))
3;If not,water cooling with a fresh water tank in the model is only way for me currently. O0
  The pic shows water cooling system adopted in the 1/10 steel electric RC tank weighing over 25kg.
 As you may know,a 12V7Ah and a motor are too heavy with no airflow actually,what is worse,it's slow moving tank...
I posted on stunning effectiveness of water cooling regardless of kinds of the RC models from my past experience.
 
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James321

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2021, 05:40:49 pm »




As for cooling, carrying around  freshwater coolant on a model is just plain daft to me. Much better to just use the sea water.  Flush it out afterwards like you should do on any boat with an outboard.  You'll maybe find you have to pull and strip out the drive shafts and anything exposed anyway like others who run in salt water do?


Agree it does sound nuts but I'm doing this for two reasons; firstly, all that maintenance is exactly what I don't want to be doing. A friend of mine has a full size boat (Yamaha 242 Limited S) and we spend more time removing corrosion and cleaning the thing after use than we spend in the water.
Second reason is weight, remember this boat was designed to be running 4kg of lead acid batteries in the hull, my LiPo's combined weight is 420g so she will be riding way too high which isn't good for a jet propulsion system, I'm going to need ballast to get the boat sitting correctly and if I'm adding ballast I may as well make it useful. 



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Stuw

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2021, 09:02:59 pm »

Sounds sensible to me if you’re running in saltwater.
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James321

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2021, 01:17:21 pm »

Briefly Derek, unfortunately they have a hot side and a cold side so will still produce unwanted heat, they are also quite power hungry devices so it would be more efficient (just) and practical (just) to run a small 6V pump which is slightly less power hungry and will still produce unwanted heat  :}
So here's a few pictures of the two pumps installed:

One of the pumps is the auto bilge, it comes with a sensor that says to locate it slightly above the bottom of the hull, so here's a question for the experience on the forum; the water pickup I would imagine has to be located at what will be the lowest part of the hull so in this case it will be at the aft of the boat but where do you locate the sensor?  I don't want the pump to start running the instant any water get in there or it will probably run the pump dry which will mean it doesn't pickup water when it needs to. Whats a sensible height to mount the sensor, I was guessing approximately 1" above the bilge pickup, anyone have experience with these?

Something like this ?

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Backerther

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2021, 07:56:33 am »

Hi James321;
I have my 1/96 HMS Fencer equipped with a bilge pump as seen below as I had encountered a very dangerous and unlucky weather when she was under maiden test run just after memorial launching.!!! {:-{ :((
The weather was becoming windy and rather dangerous for especially slow moving scale ship in the midst of the test, as seen below. And I could not see her well enough to judge that the test should have stopped right away ,as she was running a bit far away from the shore and I was a bit short-sighted.!! 
But I at last came to know the draft seemed so deep when she came near the shore and soon took her back the shore for
recovery.!!! The water in the ship was around over one inch or close to two inches high,if I remember correctly.. :((
From this experience,I soon thought bilge pump must be indispensable to equip with and to drain the water whenever the water was sensored regardless of the volume of it.
1;She repeatedly made large pitchings on the rough water like this. >:-o
2;She pitched sometimes like this as if she were torpedoed at stern....a fearful image... :(( 8)
3/4;I installed a bilge pump and a sensor like this as well as water inlets
5;The pump was replaced with more powerful one with 540 motor than original pump in the manufacturer's spec.
6;Test run with a small amount of water to refrain from soaking the work desk. {-) %%
7;The warning lamp on the portside
8/9/10;She is sailing like these after commissioned,with no water ingress around a motor coupling.
  Fierce water invasion I have experienced is from the hatch of tiller maintenance hole in the stern where has been already set securely.And I have refrained from running my ship on the rough water except my skippers. {-) O0 %%
The above is my way of setting the bilge pump settled in my slow-moving scale ship,just for your reference.


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James321

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2021, 01:33:34 pm »

Wow, great looking boat! Thanks for sharing your install, I hadn't thought of T-ing and running two clunks for the bilge but that's a good idea, one I will probably employ myself.
This week I purchased a new transmitter from the local Hobby Store, he had a great deal on a Spektrum DX6R which came complete with two receivers, a 6 channel and a 3 channel. Its a wonderful looking transmitter and I was very excited to get it up and running.....and that's where the excitement ended; The first transmitter powered up and all looked good but none of the Spektrums operating software/firmware was installed, I tried for more than enough hours to load the CP Firmware and software but no luck. I phoned the Hobby Store who said to return it (1.5 hours drive). I returned it and he supplied me with another new unit still in the plastic wrapped box, got it home and it wouldn't power up, no issues I thought, it does say the battery may need 20 hours charge so I left it on charge for 24 hours.Next day, still will not power up!  Removed the battery, its voltage was good so called the Hobby Store again and again made the 1.5 hour drive to return it.  Fast forward 1 hour and 5 brand new out of the box DX6R later and we couldn't get a single unit to power up, the only unit to power up was the one with no firmware loaded. I now understand why these were such a good deal and why Spektrum has pulled the DX6R. The Hobby Store owner has been great and has driven to the warehouse to check the stock he has to see if any will work!
Oh and I contacted Spektrum customer support to see if they had any recommendations or had encountered these issues, their response was "you aren't from the US so contact your hobby store".  Ah well, lets see if the shop owner finds a good one, if not I've an aircraft transmitter that I'm sure will work fine.
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Backerther

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2021, 01:56:18 pm »

Hi James321;


I have beeeen using Japanese made radios regardless of kinds of RC models.!! They are soooo reliable.
I am still using this radio shown below for RC boats and have 4 sets in service still now,though they are toooo old. O0 {-) %%
1;Futaba-made FF7 A super for airplane, but using this as boat transmitter for many years...
2;I am still a RC plane pilot ,though the pic was taken when I was 60. I like US F4-U Corsair.!
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James321

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2021, 02:59:51 pm »

I'm an RC pilot too and a huge fan of war birds, I used to have so many P-51's I got the name Mustang Sally!
I have Spektrum DX10 here so that will work with the boat as an air transmitter, there's no reversing the motors on this boat, the reverse is done through buckets that deploy into the water jet so I'll run that off a channel switch, the rest is simple enough to set up. 

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James321

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2021, 06:10:49 am »

Boat update:
Installing the motors today so I will be using the same Vuduglue adhesive as the rest of the build, I got a little creative with the motor alignment and used my laser level attached to a small gopro tripod. I used the prop shaft and tube as my reference and aligned the armature of the motor to those using the laser:


This seems to work well to give the horizontal alignment, vertical alignment I've just adjusted the height so the motor mount slides straight onto the coupler.
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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2021, 11:46:14 pm »

Hi, I am a bit lost with your "high power" application but I predict your rubber couplings might give away before your motors get hot for the speed you want.  Something is not right about the balance of power or the drive chain there but I am no expert -just putting 2+2 together and not seeing 5.

...also please be aware (Backerther -nothing wrong with Japanese, I think they always made the best radios) someone was reminded on another forum recently, aircraft radio gear is not permitted (rihgtly so) on a surface model here at least.  35MHz gear might well work with a 40Mhz crystal but it is not proven or accepted here by law. 2.4GHz has at least added a more common radio set.  Not sure how a scale model of an aircraft carrier applies to this build.
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Stuw

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2021, 09:18:51 am »

Hi, I am a bit lost with your "high power" application but I predict your rubber couplings might give away before your motors get hot for the speed you want.  Something is not right about the balance of power or the drive chain there but I am no expert -just putting 2+2 together and not seeing 5.

...also please be aware (Backerther -nothing wrong with Japanese, I think they always made the best radios) someone was reminded on another forum recently, aircraft radio gear is not permitted (rihgtly so) on a surface model here at least.  35MHz gear might well work with a 40Mhz crystal but it is not proven or accepted here by law. 2.4GHz has at least added a more common radio set.  Not sure how a scale model of an aircraft carrier applies to this build.



Those couplings should be fine. I’ve seen them used on here in high rev applications without issue. More robust than many at high power actually. I’ve got one in my Lesro Javelin that I’m restoring.


The aircraft carrier info was useful for bilge pump setup. I liked it anyway.
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James321

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2021, 06:35:23 pm »

The couplings were listed as Heavy Duty so I thought they would be suitable. I'm not going for any speed records, just scale speed is fine for me, I actually spec'd the motors to be low rpm, well below 20,000rpm anyway so I don't cavitate the impeller.
I've made lots of progress this week so will get some pictures posted up ASAP.
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ChrisF

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2021, 09:20:30 am »

They are considered by many to be the best type and I have standardised on them.

Chris
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James321

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2021, 09:39:22 am »

Thanks for the reassurance Chris, I actually spent too much time looking at alternatives and short of using 2 collets and some flex cable, this was the only other real alternative that I thought would withstand the rpm, the extra mass of the aluminium may actually help reduce stress/vibration on the drive (like a small flywheel)?


This week has been battery and ESC trays and a bit of internal structure, I've gone way off plan now but I hope my modifications will add strength/life to the model.  Pictures this evening all going well.
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Backerther

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2021, 01:22:16 pm »

Hi, I am a bit lost with your "high power" application but I predict your rubber couplings might give away before your motors get hot for the speed you want.  Something is not right about the balance of power or the drive chain there but I am no expert -just putting 2+2 together and not seeing 5.

...also please be aware (Backerther -nothing wrong with Japanese, I think they always made the best radios) someone was reminded on another forum recently, aircraft radio gear is not permitted (rihgtly so) on a surface model here at least.  35MHz gear might well work with a 40Mhz crystal but it is not proven or accepted here by law. 2.4GHz has at least added a more common radio set.  Not sure how a scale model of an aircraft carrier applies to this build.

Hi RST;


I do not care at all.!!
I seem to have made a careless mistake as for permitted frequency by Japanese authorities for airplane purpose.
40.77 Mhz crystal and over are for airplane use. So,I have changed 77 band crystal to 40.75 band for surface use already.
Thanks a lot for your information. O0
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RST

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2021, 10:15:38 pm »

It does look a nice clean build James, something about CF always looks sexy!

....If you cavitate PLEASE let me know.  I've been contacting various folk saying they have it but none have ever come back with any evidence.  I'm genuinely intrested to hear of it in a small-scale application for a potential paper.

Rich
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James321

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2021, 06:00:01 pm »

A few more updates for this rebuild:
The auto bilge system consists of a water level detector, pump and a few hoses, I considered just using a clunk in the bottom of the hull to be the suction tube but I wasn't happy with it just sloshing around so made a more permanent pickup that I can set just a few mm above the lowest point in the hull

Next it was attaching the various battery trays and other mounting points needed for my electrics setup:

Made good use of the wifes bumbells, I may as well, she never uses them.


With everything installed the hull weight comes in at 2.8kg, I haven't weighed the hull with all the running gear installed but I did a float test in the bath with the water line marked on the hull and I'm looking pretty good its level with the water line just under 2cm above the water, I've still got the deck (which I'm skinning with glass cloth and epoxy and cabin structure to install so it should be close.

Next part of the build is the external of the hull, its going to need some body filler to get the correct shape as its had some repairs in its previous life that's left a lumpy bumpy surface. I started on the rear guard rail today and made good progress, I'm using 3mm brass tube, I started with 3mm solid brass bar but I think this would have added far too much weight at the stern, the brass tube was less then half the weight:



It's not 100% accurate of the full scale boat, I made a slight alteration to the center upper support, the full scale boat uses an upper and lower horizontal bar in the center, I've made the upper on an angle like the 2 outboard supports, it should give better protection if (when) I reverse into something, triangles are stronger than squares if I remember my physics.
That's all the updates I have for now, I'll be back with some pictures of the work on the hull.
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James321

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2021, 06:08:09 pm »

Oh and a shameless plug here for a brilliant product, in the last picture I'm using a helping hand for support when soldering, I've had several over the years but this one made by Quadhands is absolutely the best quality I've used, the base plate must weight 3kg of solid plate and the magnets are very strong. I'm in no way connected to those guys but I believe in promoting a product that works.
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James321

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2022, 01:03:56 pm »

I'm back for an update, well truth be told I finished the build but didn't have time to update this thread as I only had limited time on an evening to get work done and I'd rather concentrate on finishing the build while the weather is still nice enough to take the boat out.


So where did I leave off









The rear guard rail was finished up, the messy silver soldering with cleaned with needle file before painting.





And here is is installed and painted, it was a real pain to paint this without creating runs on the transom but I got there in the end.


Next up was assembling the flying flying bridge or rear wing, not sure what I would call it (I'm an aircraft guy) The parts I had in the box had been disassembled from a previously assembled kit so lots of old epoxy type resin all over the seams where they had been pulled apart and the lower side of the flying bridge was missing so I would have to make that from plasticard. I assembled a jig to assist in getting the angles right, i used a copy of the plans stuck to some old off cuts of wood to get this right










[size=78%]




Next was the rear hatch, I went off plan here, I didn't see the need for the huge rear hatch and I was actually limited for space due to the carbon struts running the length of the boat which was also an addition not on the original plans. The rest of the hatch construction loosely followed the original design, just scaled down.











So I am now at a stage where the deck is ready to go on, say goodbye to the nice looking interior, next time I see you it will be through the hatch but I hope I built enough strength into it



On went the deck, even with 30 minute epoxy I found I was fast running out of time to get it all on before it started to go tacky







The deck is 1.5mm marine ply but I will be giving it multiple coats of epoxy to both strengthen and waterproof it, the interior of the deck has 2 coats and a light sanding.



[/size]
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James321

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2022, 01:42:55 pm »


It actually looks really nice with the epoxy on the deck, shame its going to covered in paint
Next up is the cabin, looking at pictures of the original boat it didn't have the wrap around windscreen Graupner wanted us to fit from the kit, it has separate screens which were clear glass, not blacked out as you see on a lot of these builds.I got to work with the rotary tool and cut out as best I could to match the original boat

Its not starting to take shape nicely

I painted the cabin window surrounds in gloss black and the boat got 3 coats of VW Candy white. I've looked at the boats in the marina here in Dubai, none of them are bright white, they all seem to be a shade off white so I went with this VW colour as its a nice just off white shade


With the exterior almost done and now that I'd cut out the windows, the interior looked completely empty. I tried to find pictures of the original boats interior but the internet has very limited history on this boat, I ended up with a picture of Virgin Atlantic Challengers cockpit as a rough guide to make something

I roughed up something that looked similar....ish


Its not so accurate but looks ok through the windows of the boat
A little bit of detail on the rear deck life rafts

And then it was time for all the decals, I ordered a replacement set from tailormade decals as the originals had a white background on them that would have clashed with the candy white paint


Needed to test it sits ok in the water, I marked the water line as per the plan but my build is so far off plan inside the deck that nothing followed, I did take the weights of everything into account though and it seems to have paid off





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James321

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2022, 04:54:07 pm »

And the finished boat.

This was my first attempt at a boat build, its something I purchased to play with in the swimming pool with my little boy but underestimated both its scale and the amount of work needed to restore a 20+ year old previously build and stripped down kit with a lot of parts needing rebuilding from scratch.I've thoroughly enjoyed the build, I've only been able to dedicate an hour or so per evening to work on it, its been a challenge and a test of skills and it doesn't end here as you'll see in the next post but it's been great fun.









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Stuw

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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2022, 09:00:03 am »

Fantastic work. Very tidy inside and out. Any footage of it running yet?
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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2022, 11:16:51 am »

Hi Stu, thank you! There aren't many of these kits left unbuilt so I wanted to do it justice as one of the last of its kind. 
I took it for its maiden in the swimming pool and almost immediately ran into a a few issues:


1. The turning circle was very poor! The jet drives have buckets which lower down for reverse, these buckets were restricting the left right movement of the rear nozzle so really restricting the rate of turn, more on those buckets to follow.


2. 20+ year old plastic- this kit and the parts that came with it, although all new parts still in the Graupner bags were still 20+ year old plastic, when I tried to use the reverse, I selected the reverse from a switch I'd assigned on my transmitter, both buckets deployed slowly as programmed and I applied some throttle (not much), I noticed both buckets then looked to be touching in the middle, pulled together, this didn't look right so I brought her back in to examine what was happening. Both nozzles had torn out of the rear of the jet drive, it does seem a weak point anyway, a 2.5mm screw is all that holds the nozzles in place going through thin (old) plastic with only around 3mm land before the edge of the nozzle, it just tore clean out, upper and lower on both jet drives.


So, I've binned the reverse system, it wasn't robust enough for the amount of water being pushed through them and I will look at a redesign of those in the future. Binning the reverse meant I could increase the steering by 50% and I've made an aluminium sleeve to fit over the end of the jet drive to beef up the nozzle hinge point. I had another test run in the pool last night and she now literally turns on a sixpence! I really don't think I will need a reverse but let's see, I will still work on a better design anyway as it's part of the boat but I much prefer to have this amount of control and steering over a reverse. 
I didn't get chance to take any video footage of her running and I certainly didn't get change to open the taps and get her moving, I got her to the point just before getting on plane before I had to back off. I'm going to take her down to the marina and get some video, I just need to make a little trolley for moving her around as it's 10kg with all the batteries installed. I'll be back soon with some running shots. 
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Re: Graupner - Azimut Atlantic Challenger
« Reply #49 on: February 18, 2022, 05:43:22 pm »

Ah. Yes old plastic not up to the job! Well she looks absolutely fantastic and you definitely look like a perfectionist with regard to the layout inside. Looking forward to seeing some footage when you get a chance.
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