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Author Topic: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project  (Read 12480 times)

Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2022, 12:58:20 am »

I thought the bow needed some 'spruce-ing' up. 😁 A tough old bit it is too.
The transom has had its ply facing glued on and trimmed, the rest will be sanded flush. I was going to use a piece of 1/8 ply inside the hull, but I have more 1/16 ply ordered so I will use that and save some weight. I have printed up some extra mounting brackets so I can try twin outboards on it at some stage, but I think it will be quick with one.
It is easy to remove outboard from the bracket on the boat to swap between models, undo one collet, 3 wires and the servo linkage.
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canabus

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2022, 05:52:46 am »

Hi Andy


The 776mm(30 and 9/16") version so you do not miss it.

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Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2022, 09:01:40 pm »

Brilliant Harry, will get a start made tonight hopefully.
I trimmed up my 1/16 ply transom facing with a scalpel and sanding block. Fairly easy compared to the 1/8 'light ply' I used on the Sea Rover.
I am going to cut a facing for inside of transom as well, to stop outboard mount bolts pulling into the balsa, my new 1/16th ply arrived earlier so I have materials, yeehah. 😁
Dont you just love a fresh sheet of wood. Lol
My son gave me a funny look when he spottec me sniffing a sheet of balsa during construction last week.
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Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2022, 09:02:32 pm »

He thought this view looked like an easter island moai.
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Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2022, 12:35:47 am »

Major difference to my Javelin hull shape that I noticed on having a look at the new stiletto plan is an angled transom, my Balsa Javelin was always intended to be outboard powered, I could have angled it and still fitted outboard but I went for vertical, in case the outboard never worked well, I had a plan b, to build a decent outdrive leg.
My interest in producing my own outboard or outdrive has been sparked by the 3d printed one, mainly driven by the fact I have doubts as to how it will hold together, I really want something robust, that I know can handle brushless assault. My friend is an engineer, but he doesnt want to stay after work to make stuff for me, he will help out if I am stuck, but I prefer to minimise asking him for machining jobs. Sometimes I make big hints tho😁
I am sure I can come up with something practical without machining. It needs sealed bearings and a watertight gear case. And 2 bearings on motor drive shaft, maybe a flexi coupling to the motor, not a fan of rigid couplings.
I have still to test my outboard on the hydro, I am hoping it holds out ok, it may surprise me, there is quite a lot of extra stuff helping to hold it together now, so hopefully that will give it a fair chance. I will see how it goes on 2s, think 3 s might need me to introduce carbon fibre reinforcement.
Anyway, hoping to get my transom inner face plate done tomorrow and maybe my spray rails. There have been cut from a b&q expensive bit of d moulding. It was actually lovely wood to plane, quite tough but very even texture and planed nicely in both directions.
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canabus

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2022, 04:20:03 am »

Hi Andy


I use Teflon lower outer bearings which my mate machines up for me.


Grease I use silicon tap grease in my drives only regressed once a year.


I have flex drive outboards and you have to clean, soak in oil and re-grease after each outer.


Harry
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Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2022, 05:33:13 pm »

I looked at flex drive ones but not cheap enough, I saw one at £185 with no motor or speed control. Mine has much less than that invested in it. Good few hours of fettling. But its fun. I have had a bit of a brainwave regarding the outboard and its strength but I am going to do my Mk 2 version similar to the first one so I can use them as a pair if required. I will add details to my outboard post.
Thanks again for your assistance Harry, and everyone else on this little vintage branch of mayhem. Long live Lesro. 😁


The javelin has an awesome look, I still want to do a full size version, if mine is 1/6 scale, action man size, that means it would be 19 and a half feet long and makes the cockpit 4 feet wide, thats plenty for 2 people..... Mmmmmm.
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Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2022, 05:37:20 pm »

See what I mean, I want to start on the 19 footer, it would be a beast.
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Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2022, 02:03:37 pm »

I cut out the inner transom facing from 1/16 ply and epoxied it in place, it was left overnight with lead weights to hold it flat.
The other items are battery holders that will be rubber banded on to the battery tray channel. These allow me to put the battery anywhere in the battery channel and not have it slide back or forward. The tray can take 3 18650 cells side by side and theres enough length for a massive pack, a double stacked pack is possible too, but I wont be loading it up too much, still thinking about lightness, been building planes and giant flying insects for too long. 😁
To be perfectly honest, I dont think there will be much difference in the weight, theres quite a lot of balsa and couple of bits of ply in the build
I wont know for sure until I get stuck into my 1/16 ply version.


It may seem like I am a bit mad doing 2 versions of the same boat, but they will be different, Ply version will be standard propshaft and rudder and a bit more durable/usable. I still regard the outboard as experimental/fragile until proven wrong, same with the balsa hull, it dents a bit too easy, it is still construction stage so easy to deal with before painting, but I will really just need to be extra careful. A box for protected storage/transportation will be needed really.
Carboard is fine for me, my son's christmas present was a gaming chair, my present was the box it came in, suitably modified it is now my Sea Rover storage and transportation unit. Lol. Dont plan on taking any of my boats out in the rain so should be fine.
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Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2022, 06:51:13 pm »

I thought I would check how many 18650 cells would fit in my battery tray... 24! That would take a 30 ah 7.4v pack, if I use samsung 25r cells, they are 2.5ah.
A bit overkill, probably going to make a 7.5 to 10 ah pack.
I also removed the magnets from my forward airscoop, and removed the framework from inside it and glued it in position, I trimmed the hatch to open up the intake after it was glued on.
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Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2022, 09:16:41 pm »

I spent a good bit of yesterday drawing up the plan for my plywood Javelin. I have used measurements taken from my balsa version as it has ended up pretty straight looking.
 There are some differences between mine and a 'proper' one..
 My hull sides slant inwards by 5mm measured at B3.
 My transom is vertical, to allow easier outboard fitting and future dabblings with outdrives. I may have a slanted transom on the ply version as it is getting a standard propshaft layout.
 On the Stiletto plan, the chines seem to sweep up as they near the transom, does the hull follow this curve?
 I never had any idea about that and have built mine straight with the same hull section from transom to B3.
 My Sea Rover sweeps up at the back and that looks to me as it would be quite draggy.
 Thats about it on the differences, I had actually thought about maximising my sheets of ply and building one at 48 inches long, but I have already bought my propshaft and it would have been too small.
 My outboard, or even 2 of them would have looked pretty small too.
 So my ply one will be standard size, my version of 'close to original' construction and certainly more durable than my Balsa version.
 When I built the balsa one, I had got the shapes of B1 and B2 wrong, this was easy to rectify in balsa, ply isnt as easy. I have the correct shapes now, as measured directly from my hull.
 This was part of the reason I wanted to draw up an entirely new plan with some tweaks to address these issues.
Back to the balsa version, I have included a photo showing it beside the hydro that is going to be used to test the outboard that I will be using on the Javelin. Hydro looks quite small beside it.
 
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zooma

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2022, 10:01:13 pm »

I look forward to hearing how your lightweight outboard powered Javelin performs - it looks like we wont have too long to wait before we can see  :-))


If you do make another Javelin in plywood, the skins are 1.5mm thick on my Rapier and Javelin and are also the same in the new un-made Streaker kit (same boat!) and Rapier kit.
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Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2022, 01:54:00 am »

I have my 1/16 ply at the ready. 😁
I am interested to see if my balsa one is lighter or not.
I have a batch of spray rails to make up next, not really looking forward to doing them.
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zooma

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2022, 11:20:57 am »

I have my 1/16 ply at the ready. 😁
I am interested to see if my balsa one is lighter or not.
I have a batch of spray rails to make up next, not really looking forward to doing them.


The Rapier and Javelin plans and building instructions make no reference to strakes on either hull - but I think they look good and I have added them to my own models and they do work well  :-))
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Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2022, 11:53:04 am »

I always thought they were standard. I am sure they help performance.
How did you make yours?
My best idea was to sand spruce strips down to the right profile but it will be a task, I am still recovering from broken shoulder, 6 ribs and sternum fracture so not really up for much sanding.
Now that you mention it, the Sea Rover doesnt have them either. I fitted chine rails and rubbing strips, but that is a cabin cruiser, and its hull shape isnt the best for speed, even though it does go fast due to my power setup.
I know it would be easier not to fit them but I was kind of relying on the rubbing strips, chine rails and spray rails to protect my balsa hull, at least to some degree.
My plans are well on for the ply version, I even  have the keel and bulkheads drawn on my ply. These are only outlines just now, still to have notches added for stringers, sides etc.
Maybe get something cut out today.
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zooma

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2022, 12:28:20 pm »


Hi Andy,

I found that it was impossible to buy any triangular section strip wood of suitable length to use as strakes on any of my classic model powerboat restorations or replica builds so I had to find a way to make my own as I did not want to use triangular plastic strips (that are freely available in a choice of sizes).

A simple jig was made to allow me to split any square section wood along a diagonal line accurately enough to get two identical triangular strips form each length from square section wood with no wastage and without making it an ordeal that would have taken more time than it needed to as I also wanted to be able to make a lot more strakes in the future.

The progress of my early jig and its development to a slightly more effective one is shown here on the Mayhem 1/12 Swordsman blog and examples of these home made strakes can be seen on the Rapier and Javelin threads along with various other methods ( including plastic) that others have contributed and used on their own models.

My jig has so far produced a lot of fairly accurate triangular section strakes from square section obechie that I have fitted to two Rapiers, a Javelin and more recently a Wave Rider and they can all be seen pictured on the three threads that cover their restoration/builds:-


https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,65518.125.html


https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,65422.125.html


https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=67831.msg735561#msg735561
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Stuw

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2022, 07:54:02 pm »

Aha. I fashioned some triangular section strakes by whittling along a square section with my bushcraft knife. The shavings came in handy for tinder.


Post 184 onward

https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,65422.175.html



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2 Lesro Javelins... and that’s it. Not even close to finished!

Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2022, 08:07:20 pm »

Thanks, I will definately have a look, I made up a jig to cut the spray rails for my Viper years ago, they were pine, but not as tough as spruce. I dont have a decent circular saw, and my spiralux fretsaw, despite having a nice 0.5mm width of cut for less waste, is too wandery in thicker materials.
 A jig sounds the way to go, I made a jig for my router to cut 9mm half rounds from 8 foot lengths of dowel, these were rubbing strips for the Viper. I fed dowel into wrong side of it, it dragged it out of my hand and fired it 25 feet down the garden! And wrecked my jig.
Is obeche easier to work than spruce?
I have been quite busy the last couple of days, getting my plan to the stage where I could transfer it to wood. I drew the keel and transom on 1/4 ply.
 I used 1/8 ply for the keel doublers ( the straight section from bulkhead B3 to transom) cockpit sides, deck supports and bulkheads.
 I have still to draw up the doublers for keel forward of B3, I thought about separate pieces fitted between bulkheads, cut from offcuts rather than doing them in one big bit for each side. Then I thought it would probably be better doing them as one piece, for accuracy?
So with most of my bits drawn on the wood last night, I was pleasantly surprised to wake up to a nice day.
 After a few chores, I got my workmate out, jigsaw inverted in the jaws and clamped up, some masking tape on the jigsaw foot to protect my nice new plywood and I was ready for some cutting out.
 It always takes a bit longer than you think. I had to draw the sides after I had cut out my deck supports, to get the bottom curve correct for them.
 A couple of hours of cutting, I have to stop often, my shoulder and chest still not very useful yet.
 About half an hour of sanding got all my edges sharp to the lines, I will mark the stringer positions etc later.
Quite happy with my progress today. Thats all the bigger bits cut out, I prefer to do all the rest of the bits as custom fitted bits, once the framework is dry fitted together for a look.
 Not sure whether to go for hard balsa stringers, or spruce. Balsa worked fine on first Javelin, the balsa skins were actually less bendy than 1/16 ply and didnt distort when skins were pulled into position, so balsa stringers might be/ should be ok. Not decided finally but I did manage to cut a nice set of balsa ones earlier, much easier to sand when the time comes......
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Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2022, 08:19:53 pm »

I am going to build it with slanted transom, it won't be getting an outboard fitted and should look better slanted.
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mrzippy

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2022, 08:24:02 pm »

Did a quick double-take of the Stiletto plan posted here on Mayhem 20220213_200709 smaller.jpg -
it actually shows 2 strakes on the drawing !  yet there's none on another Stiletto plan I've spotted amongst the Lesro stuff.
You can get small triangular sections used in the aeromodelling world - aircraft wing trailing edge, know as TE. which may work,
its shallow angled therefore possibly 2 glued together or a bigger one cut down,
or use part and car body filler the rest etc - but only available in Balsa.
Also 45degree triangle is available in lots of sizes and may be in spruce? this could be hacked to shape or somewhere to start?
 - SLEC in Norfolk's website is a good place to look, they supply many models shops or mail order.

Andy are you sure about your beautifully executed forward facing air scoop?
I'm thinking water on the deck or worse going through a wave, is going to shoot water straight into your battery tray - boom!
expensive puffs of white smoke Lol. - been there / done that / got the teeshirt.
You may get away with it on ic powered model - but the golden rule for air inlets - have them rear facing like your back four.
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mrzippy

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2022, 09:00:50 pm »

Andy just read the last posts and your injuries sound horrendous - mind how you go fella !

Tips for chine stringers - don't bother bending/steaming fat half inch square or quarter square spruce etc,
I use 2 laminations (with epoxy) of eg. quarter by half or eighth by quarter - its a lot easier to bend around curves,
and being laminated ends up stronger/stiffer.

For easier sanding - glue on the first lam of spruce and a second lam of balsa - balsa on the outside is much easier to sand !
My weapon of choice for shaping chine/deck stingers (always a swine of a job) is razor plane followed by Permagrit Ali sanding block.
Permagrit products have been the biggest game changer over my 50 years of modelling - best things on the planet !
always super sharp, great to use, expensive but last a lifetime.
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zooma

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2022, 10:21:14 pm »

As far as I know - hardwood triangular section wood (in longer lengths that we need for our r/c model boats) is not available any more.   Mine are cut from obechie and that works very well, and is what they used to be made from when they were available and included in various kits - including my original Aerokits Swordsman.

I prefer to work with obechie for stringers (and strakes) as it bends and conforms to shape easily and sands well too - and again is what Aerokits (and LesRo) used to supply in their kits for the purpose.

Stringers are usually formed with two laminates of 1/8" X 1/4" obechie to make an easy job that is strong and can be sanded to accept the skins easily. These do not need steaming or any other treatment other than fitting them to the breasthook and bulkheads etc.

Their strength is in the laminate,  and some of that strength would be lost if the outer layer were balsa wood.  No point in losing this strength when the obechie is so easy to work with - but I actually "work" my boats and actually "use" them on a regular basis, so I build them to be strong and last - just like Aerokits and LesRo did with their kits using the same techniques and wood specification .  It works!   :-))
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Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2022, 11:16:20 pm »

Thanks for the input, always appreciated.
Ah yes, the air/water scoop on the front..... I did think about this for a good while, I dont plan on using it on choppy water, but things happen.....
I wanted it to look like a real vent, so I opened it up. I have thought about the water again and decided I will paint the vent's inside surface black, then glue a similarly painted piece of ply over the hole inside the hatch, no water, but still a proper looking vent.
Spray rails I am going to attempt in spruce, as I have a nice bit. It is 5mm thick and I am planning to either belt sand or flap disc the edge of the plank to a razor edge, then slice that bit off carefully using my upturned jigsaw technique. I may check my funds and see if I could stretch to some obeche, it sounds nicer to work with. Maybe next month.
I thought about balsa ones toughened up with superglue or ply facing, but they would be harder to get smooth.
Will try my spruce sheet first, its just a matter of careful sanding, if they end up too small, I can always build another boat to use them. 😁
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Andy M

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2022, 03:52:11 am »

Some of you may be wondering why I stopped construction on the balsa Javelin and started on another one. The reason I stopped was to take accurate measurements before rubbing strips and chine rails were fitted. The balsa Javelin looks straight to me, the curves are pretty smooth and it was fairly easy to take measurements. I actually made up a couple of card profiles that fitted over the deck at  B1  and B2 positions (the ones I had troubles with) I then superglued on card strips following the hull side angle and then did the same for the bottom angle, this gave me a template of exact size and shape as my hull, which turned out to be pretty symmetrical. An unexpected bonus! Lol.
 The reason I haven't re-started on the balsa one is that
 A) It was dry today and I had the chance to cut out most of the bits for my plywood version.
 B) I thought if I get them both to the painting stage at the same time, it will make it a bit easier, whether this will be true or not will be seen, one coat of paint on a boat takes longer than you expect, painting 2 might be asking too much of my wrists in the one go. I folded both of them right back going over the bars of my pushbike years ago and they have never been good since.
 I am hoping to get my chine rails and rubbing strips glued on tonight.
 I have been using Gorilla gel for bits that need to be placed on, and normal superglue for bits that can be held in place and glued down a seam.
 The gel was excellent, normal superglue would have soaked into the balsa and set by the time you finished applying it, the gel stayed there without going off until the part was positioned, there is even (sometimes) a chance for repositioning.
 When I glued the 1/16 ply transom facing on, it took a while to get a decent amount of the glue on the ply and I was worried it might set before I got it on and lined up properly.
 It worked fine, well worth the money but still a bite out of my modelling fund.
 Anyone know if cascamite powdered woodglue is still ok to use after 20 years? 😁
 I had the urge to re-live my first rc boat build and use cascamite.
 My first rc boat was a KNK Aurora, powered and controlled by ex  Tamiya Holiday buggy setup.
 My model building exploits are helping to take my mind off things at the moment, that and looking after my kids (both of which have zero interest in models.....)
 I haven't been able to sleep much recently, so model designing, building, painting etc is helping me fill the time.
The idea of a single hull and swappable Rapier and Javelin superstructures has been on my mind too, my Edita cabin cruiser is a prime example of a hull with very good access, one piece superstructure fitting over a coaming around the opening. I think I could make the Javelin superstructure work using this method, but a coaming would be visible through the Rapier's windows, or too low to be of any use. Or I give up on the superstructure swapping idea and just build a Rapier as well? 😁
There was one thing I wondered about the Rapier, how do the wee guys get into it? I never noticed a door. Or is it climb in through the roof hatch? That would work on a real one... 😁
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mrzippy

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Re: Andy M's scratchbuilt Javelin project
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2022, 11:40:28 am »

Good point re Obechi Bob - nice wood to work with, doesn't have a mind of its own like Spruce and sands very nicely -
I mentioned Spruce because it seems to be the only hard wood model shops stock these days -
should one be lucky to have a local model shop??
mine closed years ago, I now have to travel 70 miles to the nearest proper model shop !

Pleased to report SLEC do stock Obechi along with Walnut, Spruce, Mahogany and Bass.

I was mixing my Aerokits plans with Vic Smeeds plans -
he often specified chunks of solid Spruce for chine and deck stringers on ic. boats,
which as an 10 year old boy, I would try and bend around a hull framework without a cat in hells chance of it fitting !! Lol.

When Ivan (Vintage Model Boat Company) was researching/reviving Aerokits/Lesro and Les Rowell's other modelling buisness's
it was rumoured there was another offshore racer design similar to Javelin, which came after Jav, that wasn't kitted.

And what was it called - "Vipers" - co-incidence Andy with your fullsize? or do you know more??
would love to find more info or plans for this mystery ship.

Paul.

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