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[SimonCornes]

Can anyone suggest a source for a decent 1/32 scale hawser for the rope and cable crate on the aft deck of my Imara please? As things stand I have a length of rather hairy hemp and I think something braided and black would look a lot more realistic but I'm afraid I don't know how to braid so I wondered if there was an off the shelf solution that didn't cost a fortune?
Thank you.

[Colin Bishop]

Mobile Marine Models do a range of sizes for tug towing ropes. Just put rope in the search facility. If you want a black one you might have dye or stain it.

https://www.mobilemarinemodels.com/

olin

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Braided fishing line is some of finest cordage that I have used on a model.
But that was for crane cabling..
 
I have some 1.5mm and 5mm braided nylon that I picked up from the local
hardware store to represent "Spectra/plasma" synthetic towing hawse line.
 

[Colin Bishop]

As a 1930s vessel, Imara would have used traditional hawsers as braided nylon and artificial ropes did not come into general use until after WW2

Colin

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

Found the spool of fishing line. 0.55mm 
.
It can probably be found in a nice taupe color to represent older hemp lines.
 

[Hellboy Paul]

Cotton brick line looks good & it will take dyes
 https://www.roofgiant.com/chalk-brick-line-tools/cms-cotton-brick-line/


Paul..

[SimonCornes]

Mobile Marine Models do a range of sizes for tug towing ropes. Just put rope in the search facility. If you want a black one you might have dye or stain it.

https://www.mobilemarinemodels.com/

olin

Thanks Colin, as you say, I can’t use synthetic materials for a 1930’s vessel but it is important that whatever I use will take a stain. That website could be the answer - I will look at it more thoroughly via my Mac as it’s not so easy with a smart phone!!
Simon

[Big Ada]

Can anyone suggest a source for a decent 1/32 scale hawser for the rope and cable crate on the aft deck of my Imara please? As things stand I have a length of rather hairy hemp and I think something braided and black would look a lot more realistic but I'm afraid I don't know how to braid so I wondered if there was an off the shelf solution that didn't cost a fortune?
Thank you.

Have a look in B & Qs they have some different sizes.

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

If you have line or cordage you like, but it is fuzzy, the tall ship modelers will 
drag the line through bees wax to calm all down all the fuzz.
 
 

[Mark T]

These look good


https://www.rigging-ropes.com

[SimonCornes]

I've emailed Mobile Marine and I'm waiting for a reply. They have their own rope walk for making various thicknesses but I don't know if their stuff will take a stain. If it doesn't then its not worth buying as I want to coil it ups and put it into the crate on the rear deck so its not even important that the ends are made off into loops. In theory any natural fibre should do, which is why I am slightly dubious about the likes of B&Q as most 'strings' are synthetic - I have a lovely ball of string that looks perfect but it won't take a tea stain so I thinks its synthetic! I also have some lovely Amati or maybe Artesania Latina rigging which has the texture embossed on it - superb for scale rigging but at this scale it would only serve as a grass line! If I get no joy from Mobile Marine then it might be Maritime Models or Jotika as my next port of call!

[SimonCornes]

Just ordered some white rope from Mobile Marine. They do a white colour and a fawn but say that the white will stain better than the fawn. Its also proper rope made on a walk and I've ordered the extra thick at 4mm and thick at 2.5mm so that should do the trick!

[dodes]

As she was an old steam tug, she probably towed on 7inch  circumference 4 strand cable laid manila hawser. Tugs build up the strain slowly, if they suddenly went full tilt on the tow the towing cable would part even new multi strands, and on a sea tow always keep the bight of the hawser under the water if it lifts out of the water there is a stronger danger of the hawser parting, in theory it is the weight of the tow wire which pulls the towed vessel, that was the theory when I worked on the M.o.D.n "R" class.

[SimonCornes]

As she was an old steam tug, she probably towed on 7inch  circumference 4 strand cable laid manila hawser. Tugs build up the strain slowly, if they suddenly went full tilt on the tow the towing cable would part even new multi strands, and on a sea tow always keep the bight of the hawser under the water if it lifts out of the water there is a stronger danger of the hawser parting, in theory it is the weight of the tow wire which pulls the towed vessel, that was the theory when I worked on the M.o.D.n "R" class.

Thank you for that. I reckon that a 4mm 'rope' at 1/32 scale works out at just over 5" diameter so a bit light really. If its manila then I suppose it aught to be a dark 'rope' colour then really?!! I have a mixture of 'rope' coloured and blue/black coloured hawsers and the 'crate' is pretty much full/busy so I think the jobs done but I don't think anyone makes proper 'rope' using a walk as Mobile Marine do?

[dodes]

I expect she had a grass rope junk connected to the hook with the tow hawsers shackled on as required for the right length, the junk being considerable thicker as that is your weight absorber when taking the weight. Even in fairly modern times, in the MoD tugs we had junk ropes on the hook with different length tow wires depending on the job. Also on the Rollicker class we would put a junk hawser in the towing system when towing heavy weights at sea.

[SimonCornes]

I've never heard the term 'junk' before but then I have never delved very deep into practical tug operations. I understand grass lines but a grass rope junk sounds heavier than that? So the grass rope junk would be attached to the tug and then a tow hawser shackled to the grass rope junk and then the junk hawser on to the ship being towed? Every day's a school day!

[dodes]

That's correct, all the tugs I have worked on with towing hooks or seen usually have a junk rope(spring) though ship tugs operating on ships berthing from the sixties in commercial ports would take a ships mooring line direct onto their hooks to save the shipping company money, the tug crews were not happy with this as they are not sure of the safety of the hawsers, an I have seen them part with synthetic rope being quite spectacular results, I witness one on the Sun 21 part, there three heads watching from behind the bow boards, they ducked swiftly and the rope went back and you could see were it hit the bow boards, the perfect outline of the hawser and bright clean steel were there was paint. I know of a Knights tug working of the Isle of Grain in the Medway, the hawsr came in board and melted solid in the open box construction under the hook. But old pre-war steam government tugs usually always had a junk.

[SimonCornes]

Ok, yes I can understand a crew not trusting someone else’s gear!
Talking springs, I thought they were just used between ship and shore bollard to drive against in order to kick out the stern before reversing and letting go the spring from the shore bollard? Not sure how springs work between a ship and a tug? Sounds a bit chalk and cheese!!

[dodes]

They are known as junk springs, when i first went to sea, some times a junk spring would be put in a vessels mooring spring, when you moored where great strain is put on springs due to water movement caused by other ships passing by like the top of Portsmouth Harbour when the Ferries pass by, or in ports like Fishguard where tremendous swell rolls in when there are gales in the Irish sea. So when a tug rigs one on its hook for towing or you rig a sea going tow rig where usually a junk spring could be put in the system, they are there to take sudden exertions like a relief spring. Mooring springs can be used to berth or unberth by steaming on, but with large ships that is not always practical as quite often the shoulder makes contact with the wharf and can damage shell plating, small vessels with small engines yes. I had a small vessel of about 265ft, but I could not use the springs as she had a minimum speed of 9.5 knots so i used the breast rope on a winch to move the bow in and then use my engines, which with a single screw was not always easy. Gets confusing if one has never been to sea, but you get used to all these similar terms. But when you moor up, you have two springs a forward and back spring to stop fore and aft movement. A head and stern rope to keep the ship nominally alongside and a stern and head breast rope, which are used at nearly 90 degrees to the berth to keep the vessel tight alongside to work cargo, but these two ropes have to be tended fairly regular so as not to over tighten and part due to the vessel rising out or getting deeper in the water due to cargo movement plus any tidal movement.

[SimonCornes]

Thank you for that really comprehensive reply! Clearly there is far more to full still see ship handling than meets the eye! I have always tried to sail a model boat to come somewhere near to how the real thing would behave - slow changes in motor speed, turning carefully and smoothly and remembering that you can never be too slow but you can sometimes be way too fast! I assume your ship wouldn’t have been enough rudder authority below 9.5 knots? Really fascinating to read though!

[derekwarner]

10/10 for your quest for scale function with scale models Simon  .....it never fails to amuse to see a model Tug Boat pushing a Ski Boats bow wave


Derek

[SimonCornes]

What gets me Derek is that they often seem oblivious to how their model should behave! I’ve seen beautifully built models either accelerating or decelerating like crazy or the stern twitching about. You expect it with children who only know full ahead of full astern but it would be nice to see just smooth boat handling!
Simon

[dodes]

Hi Simon, yes the boat I mention was the R M A S Arrochar ex Army boat St George, she had 3000 Brake Horse Power and a four blade Screw, used to drive her like a single screw tug. But keep in mind that on real diesel powered tugs when you change from one direction to another, it used to take at least 15/20 seconds before anything happens, because the engine has to slow to the correct revs to change gear and usually a shaft brake to engage the shaft and stop it before the shaft changed direction of rotation, then for the engine speed to increase. That was how it worked on the Dog class tugs, have known with some ship pilots that you could not keep up with their directions, you come to stop then before you engage he instructs you back to where you were. Same with C P prop systems, there is delay in the mechanics of the prop blades moving to what you want and there is usually a delay in direction of thrust, on the R class we had a emergency button to crash the gear box to change direction of thrust, but that was only used usually once a year when a engineer would test it. But a steam recip engine can go from full ahead to full astern due to there being no gearbox, but the strain on the system can be quite considerable. So any system with a gearbox usually cannot go one way and immediately the other way, including Warships.

[Colin Bishop]

That's an interesting insight into the practicalities of manouevering full size vessels. Us modellers are just used to pulling down on the throttle stick!

Dodes will no doubt remember the three Denny built diesel driven Isle of Wight ferries, Southsea, Brading and Shanklin. The first two were fitted with gearboxes but to save money, Shanklin did not have them and to go astern the engines had to be stopped and then restarted in the opposite direction. It made the vessel more difficult to handle  when coming alongside and despite being the newest by 3 years, she was the first to be disposed of after being relegated to excursion cruises and used as a relief vessel for much of her life.

Colin

[SimonCornes]

Hi Simon, yes the boat I mention was the R M A S Arrochar ex Army boat St George, she had 3000 Brake Horse Power and a four blade Screw, used to drive her like a single screw tug. But keep in mind that on real diesel powered tugs when you change from one direction to another, it used to take at least 15/20 seconds before anything happens, because the engine has to slow to the correct revs to change gear and usually a shaft brake to engage the shaft and stop it before the shaft changed direction of rotation, then for the engine speed to increase. That was how it worked on the Dog class tugs, have known with some ship pilots that you could not keep up with their directions, you come to stop then before you engage he instructs you back to where you were. Same with C P prop systems, there is delay in the mechanics of the prop blades moving to what you want and there is usually a delay in direction of thrust, on the R class we had a emergency button to crash the gear box to change direction of thrust, but that was only used usually once a year when a engineer would test it. But a steam recip engine can go from full ahead to full astern due to there being no gearbox, but the strain on the system can be quite considerable. So any system with a gearbox usually cannot go one way and immediately the other way, including Warships.

I had no idea that the process of changing the direction of a screw was so involved but then when you consider how big everything is I suppose its to be expected! I could certainly imagine a gear box complaining a great deal if it was abused in that way !