Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair  (Read 5610 times)

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« on: March 06, 2022, 09:55:39 am »

Hi I have a large all steel construction Bustler Tug, the hull, deck and superstructure are all steel that has been soft soldered. When I tested the hull to see how much ballast was going to be needed, I found 3 small leaks. Its since sat in the garage whilst I worked up the courage to repair it, so would welcome your advice on how best to repair the leaks. The previous owner has tried, the inside has had a resin of some sort applied. The outside has had a thick coat of red oxide applied that is flaking off. So you ideas on how to
1) strip the hull below the waterline back to bare metal. I would like to try and keep the weathered look of the paintwork above the water line.
2) to fix the leaks - soft solder and risk chasing the problem, or fibre glass matting or some other way?
3) how best to paint over the repair






Logged

Baldrick

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,413
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Nether Effingham (Perfideous Albion)
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2022, 11:15:32 am »

Hi DBS88.
    When you say the hull is made of steel is it raw steel or tinplate ( thin steel sheet coated in tin ie. as baked beans come in)  This makes a difference of how well soldering will take .
Logged
And everyone thought it was IVAN who was terrible

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2022, 11:23:52 am »

Hi Thank you for the question, I am afraid I don't know, its all painted and I did not construct it, what I do know is its a high quality model and I am keen to return it to the water. To be honest I marvel at the skill involved in constructing this model.
I am reluctant to try re soldering since I may end up chasing a problem. I also believe that when this steel hulls are made they are constructed over a wooden former to support the work. The inside is coated in a thick resin which I assume was to stop leaks/add strength? which would be a mammoth task to remove. Hope this additional info helps with your thoughts, thank you
Logged

Baldrick

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,413
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Nether Effingham (Perfideous Albion)
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2022, 11:43:05 am »




   Being steel or tinplate ,chasing of a solder seam should not be a problem, heat transmission in steel is not fast as it is with copper . Providing you do it with a suitable size soldering iron (and not a blow lamp ) the heat will not run adjoining seams. The main problem will be getting a bright surface that with flux will tin , which is where tinplate will be easier. Perhaps a scrape back to the metal, if it is tinplate it will  be bright and shine.
Logged
And everyone thought it was IVAN who was terrible

mrlownotes

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 404
  • Location: A bit NorthWest Cambridgeshire
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2022, 12:00:34 pm »

'Captain Tolley's Creeping Crack Cure' has been around for decades. If you can locate possible origins of water entry it may be worth a try. No guarantees of a fix, depending on extent of sealing required, but it would initially avoid major structural disturbance.
Logged
Bintur Ellenbach

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2022, 12:04:11 pm »

Hopefully this photo will help with the discussion, the three leaks are indicted by the orange masking tape
Logged

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2022, 12:06:04 pm »

To give you a better idea of the quality of this model here is a photo of the superstructure
Logged

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,463
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2022, 12:14:27 pm »

Evening Dave........going back to 1963 & soft soldering in Metal Work at High School, we used Killed Spirits as the liquid solder flux, and a tar-like flux paste in joints that were never to be seen  :o  [the flux spat during the process - much thicker and darker than today's Yorkshire Flux paste]]


From this I suggest the resin type material you mention was that same tar-like flux, and nothing more so as not to contaminate the joint being soldered


So, if you can find any traces of this flux paste it will be boiling hot soapy water-soluble


If the previous builder/owner added a coating of a synthetic resin, the removal will be a different game :-X


Are you prepared to have the hull glass power blasted??...that would be a method of stripping both the internal and external coatings over the steel


Judging from the apparent age of the build, you may have found the plating was cut from Tin-Plated steel, over Galvanised steel sheet, as the Tin Plate material was universally available in 12" x 12" sheets, whereas Galvanized sheet was not


Plumbers 'soft solder' in 3/8" semi-circular lengths of 12" will flow beautifully  O0 to clean tined, & well fluxed  Tin-Pated steel, or zinc/tin coated 'Galvanised' steel sheet

Derek
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2022, 10:23:04 pm »

Thank you for taking the time to help out it is appreciated, you have given me food for thought.  I had been wondering about thin fibreglass matting and resin but was unsure how it would take to the prepared and primed metal hull?
Logged

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2022, 09:05:45 pm »

Having had a go at scrapping back one area where there was leak, I found no obvious reasons for the leak. So I left it for a while and thought more about the problem. I have decided to bite the bullet and strip the whole of the hull below the water line back to bare metal, then fix any issues. I took the first steps tonight. Below the water line had been repainted by hand with red oxide, whoever did this laid the paint on with a trowel, my Nan would of been proud of the runs in the paint, they looked like net curtains! Not only that, they did not rubdown the previous paint to key it, so I was able to remove the red oxide in less than an hour by gently scrapping it. This was revealed the beauty of the plated hull. The next step is to get the paint stripper out and remove the rest of the paint so that the leaks can be fixed.
Logged

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2022, 07:09:14 pm »

Today I had a go with the paint stripper. The first go was with Nitromoors, which took one layer off. So thats two layers of paint gone now. Next I applied Wilkos's own brand paint stripper, its very cheap and it worked well, it stayed wetter that the Nitromoors, it took away two more layers, one of a red oxide and another of black gloss, to leave behind the first coat of red oxide and bare metal. Whatever paint was used it fought hard, the paint stripper was on for a couple of hours, it softened the paint so it could be removed with a scrapper. The paint certainly did not fall off. Any way as suspected, there have been previous repairs carried out. I believe this model had a steam plant in it once upon a time, there are signs of a water intake for a boiler feed pump, sadly, it only had an electric motor when I picked it up. Now I have washed off the paint stripper and dried the hull, the fabulous plating is revealed, next will be repairing the some holes that have come to light, it was always going to get worse before it gets better. The repairs are a bit more extensive than soldering a leaking seam to a plate, so will think about the best way of achieving a strong long lasting water proof repair to the hull. What has been revealed is the skill of the engineer that constructed this all metal boat, the work on the plating is a joy to behold.
Logged

Circlip

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4,447
  • Location: North of Watford, South of Hadrians wall
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2022, 10:59:30 am »

Tip from 'Escape to the Chateaux' After applying stripper like N/M, cover with polythene to stop solvent evaporating.


  Regards  Ian.
Logged
You might not like what I say, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.
 
What I said is not what you  think you heard.

JimG

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,268
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Dundee
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2022, 12:36:00 pm »

If the hull is made from tinplate then make sure the outside is well sealed when painting. Tinplate will rust rapidly especially where the tin coating is damaged exposing the steel. This may be why the inside is resin coated as if it did have a steam plant the interior would likely be exposed to damp.
Jim
Logged
Dundee Model Boat club

nemesis

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,074
  • Location: North Shields. Northumberland
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2022, 06:11:34 pm »

It is a shame that the flux used for tinplate was "killed spirit" Bakers fluid. The nature of this beast is it is highly corrosive and if not negated after soldering it starts its deadly game. It seems to get into the metal.Possibly that is what you are having now. The normal procedure to fasten items in a metal hull was the drill the hole and countersink it, then use a matching bolt head and solder it up, dressing it flush. If you like this tug and you are going to keep it, I would suggest, after you have finished it, is to take a fibre glass mould. nemesis
Logged

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2022, 08:39:31 pm »

Thank you for the tips, they are helpful.
Re the tug yes I do like it and do plan on keeping it, the reasons being I like the metal hulls and am fascinated by the work of Norman Ough. Next the Bustler Class was designed to sail with the Atlantic and Arctic Convoys during WW2, so this model is a good stable mate for the ship I am researching and preparing to build, HMS Wren a Black Swan Sloop that protected the convoys from submarine attacks.
This Bustler Tug is large, its a 1:48 scale so 52 inches long, again its the same scale as HMS Wren that I am going to build.
Re the suggestion of taking a mould from the hull, I know nothing about that, but it sounds like a good idea.
Re the reasons for the rusting, either the flux or water becoming trapped between the paint, hull and inside resin sealant all seem likely. So
my thoughts now are to cut out the rusting sections and replace them. Then use a fine grade fibreglass matting and resin to cover the hull to add strength and ensure it remains water tight.
Logged

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2022, 09:05:00 pm »

Tonight I have taken he plunge and cut out the rusty sections from the hull. This has revealed the car type filler that has been used on the inside of the hull to support the plates and provide some rigidity . Also, some good news, its not the flux thats caused the problem. The reasons for this is where the plates have rusted, its from the back, and its happened to the whole of the plate rather than round the joins where the flux would be. Also the issues are only at the base of the hull, they are not further up the hull. There are no signs of rust or loose seems at all further up. So appears to have happened is that water has got in, its then stayed at the bottom of the hull trapped between paint and resin, causing the problem. I have considered soldering new plates over the existing problem areas, but decided not to risk it. So now the plan of action is:
1) To use a hot air gun to make sure any moisture is driven out,
2) Wire brush the areas around the removed sections so they are bright, and keyed.
3) Fill with waterproof filler.
4) Rub down the filler sympathetically to keep the plate lines
5) Prep the rest of the hull by rubbing down, dealing with any surface rust and keying the surface with 80 grit paper
6) Apply the fine grade glass fibre matting and resin to waterproof and add strength to the hull.
Logged

Martin (Admin)

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23,359
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2022, 09:38:52 pm »


There's bold for you!    :-))
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!" -  Visit the Mayhem FaceBook Groups!  &  Giant Models

derekwarner

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,463
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2022, 01:57:00 am »

There's brave of you!  {:-{


What is the whitish coloured material we see in those rectulangish cut-outs?
Have you any experience in 'tinning' steel sheet?, prior to making soldered joints?
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2022, 04:55:18 pm »

The weather was fine today so managed to get back outside to finish preparing the hull. I filled in the gaps where I had cut out the rusty sections. Once the resin had cured I rubbed it down, then went on to rub down the rest of the hull below the water line with 80 grit paper. I know thats coarse, but the purpose was two fold. 1) to remove any loose or flaking paint, 2) to key the surface so that the resin will grip it.   I carefully removed the paint from the edges of each plate so that as much definition of the plating is retained as possible. The surface was then cleaned and degreased ready for the fibreglass matting and resin. Whilst working on the hull, rubbing down each plate and cleaning the edges of each plate, I really have come to appreciate the skill of the engineer who created this model. Not one of the plates is flat, the compound curves on the plates is just exquisite, they have been beaten into shape and carefully fitted. Then there's the skill in soldering it all together, there's virtually no solder on the faces of the plates, its an incredibly clean piece of work.
Derek To answer your questions, the grey material seen through the cut away sections is a mixture of car filler and resin that has been applied on the inside of the hull by a previous owner. Re tinning and soldering I have done a little, as I said I admire the work of Norman Ough and have had a go at constructing a radar mast from tin sheet folded into angle irons and then soldered -the photo shows one side, its a practice piece for my Black Swan. I know the basics and so could have soldered some patches over the holes, but having found previous repairs with filler and having decided to fibre glass the outside to stop future leaks, there didn't seem to be anything to be gained from going that valid and interesting route.
Logged

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2022, 06:55:21 pm »

Having degreased the hull I have now done the first side of the hull with the fibre glass matting and resin. I have not used this stuff before, but found it went on really easily. I will wait till the morning to do the next side, it looks good at the moment but will reserve judgment till its cured.
Logged

Martin (Admin)

  • Administrator
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23,359
  • Location: Peterborough, UK
    • Model Boat Mayhem
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2022, 07:33:44 pm »


 Great job!   :-))
Logged
"This is my firm opinion, but what do I know?!" -  Visit the Mayhem FaceBook Groups!  &  Giant Models

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2022, 09:44:31 pm »

Ok confessions time, warts an all. The clear resin has gone on well and I am pleased with it. What I had not realised was quite how thick a layer it would form over the hull, the finish is lovely and smooth, but the plating details are now not so well defined. The resin finish is thicker than the five layers of paint that were removed, so thats a bit of a fail. Having thought about it a bit more, what I realise is that all the detail of the plating can still be seen through the clear resin, so its not lost, its just encapsulated, so I am taking the radical decision not to paint the the resin with a red antifouling, I will leave it clear so that the plating detail can be seen. The industrial look may not be to everyones taste but hopefully its the right decision for two reasons, 1) its not hiding the repairs, 2) more importantly, it is preserving the original makers workmanship so that it can be seen.
Logged

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2022, 09:14:11 pm »

Thank you for your help with this repair, your advice has both been welcome and appreciated. As far as the repairs to the hull are concerned thats job now done. Its not the end of the work on the renovation of this Bustler Tug, so will update you later, most likely under a new heading, when there is more to say.
I have attached a couple of photos. The work completed is the repairs to the rusted sections, below the waterline has been stripped back, fibre glass matting and resin has been used to water proof the hull, the rest of the hull has been rubbed down cleaned and protected with a satin coat of sealer. So whilst the finished look is not text book, or factory fresh, or everybody's cup of tea, hopefully it shows the skill of the engineer who constructed the model. Painting the hull below the water line with red antifouling can still be done, but for now I have no desire to hide that lovely plating that is visible through the clear epoxy resin finish. Above the water line I could have repainted it, but have chosen to protect what is already there, maybe at a later date, it could be painted so that its all one factory fresh colour, for now I will see how it looks on the water. Once again thank you for your company on this renovation that has taught me a lot.
Logged

DBS88

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 492
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Surrey
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2022, 08:21:55 pm »

I realised that this chapter was not quite complete. I have this evening added the crowning glory to the hull restoration - a stunning 4 Blade Prop from PropShop, Simon really is helpful, the prop has been drilled and tapped 2BA to suit the prop shaft, so it was not a standard off the shelf item, but it still arrived promptly and finishes off the hull nicely. Next came the test to make sure that the hull is also watertight, thankfully it is. I ballasted it down to the waterline and left it in the bath for an hour. Yes that is a 5litre water container, 2 times 2 litre drinks bottles and 2 times 1 litre drinks cartons, so approx 11kg of ballast needed. I reckon thats job done for the repairs to the hull, will keep you posted with future plans now that we have a fit for purpose hull.
Logged

KNO3

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,515
  • Location: Bucharest
Re: Steel Hull Leaking - Bustler Class Tug - How to repair
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2022, 06:25:29 am »

Only discovered this thread now. The idea to leave the transparent resin finish on the lower part of the hull is very good, as it shows how it's was built. What did you do on the inside of the hull?
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.103 seconds with 22 queries.