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Author Topic: Installing Electronic Controls and Steam Plant in an all metal Bustler Class Tug  (Read 9912 times)

derekwarner

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So Dave.....it appears you have most issues or contingencies covered with respect to the hardware and the electrical software for the 60 minute x distance covered steam trial event


I must admit Denis from Denes has covered and added further electronic software to provide a monumental improvement in the range of equipment over and above that of the earlier Cheader ABC. Denis is also cleary offering the critical support and input to the user comments back to him. From that, I am there will be a sub-set of fellow steam modellers who will welcome the complications of this control equipments.....[for me in the future.....boiler water level control is the only area where I may consider the need or benifit]


I also note the comment from Denis, in his preference of an electric drive boiler water make-up pump, with the associated thoughts supporting this 


One question, does the onboard make-up water [as pure bottled product] require an additive to ensure the purity of the water does not inhibit electrical conductivity? <:(   and which does not cause any issue as a water contaminate that is intend to boil?

Having said this, and without any negativity, I am not sure you will have sufficient time to establish a set fault free installation tests in just 3 days with the confidence to push the envelope......however the results will speak for themselves


So having such a depth of on-line on-board electronic control, I am unsure in the value of reporting engine speed remotely back to some sort of interface with the driver


Another important matter is understanding the capability of the opposition vessels and their equipments and strategy for their attempts for the 60 minute event........is their vessel/s speeds known?.........do the opposition Captains read MBM, so have a good understanding of your race/event Plan?  :-X etc


Looking forward to progress and the event


Derek
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Derek Warner

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KNO3

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When it comes to steam plants for powering model boats, I have noticed two main approaches:
(1) some like it as simple as possible, (2) others enjoy the complications of additional machinery, electronics etc.
While the first approach makes it easier to achieve a reliable system, this is in no way guaranteed. After all, much depends on the skill and experience of the builder(s). Of course, certain functions (like achieving longer running times, automatic control for performance and safety) require more complex mechanisms.
But we all know that a complex steam plant can be a fascinating thing to watch running, and I think this is also a factor which drives us in this direction.
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frazer heslop

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Malcolm had a build for a simple boiler level control he made for the 24 hour event
It works well as long as you remember not to put a water tube near the probe  %)
Sorry the reply is short
kind regards
Malcolm Beak’s Articles –
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DBS88

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There are a few loose ends to tie up, the first is the oil separator. As time had been short I tried the oil separator that came with the steam plant, it is a nice looking red oil drum. All I had to do was to rework the exhaust pipe so the pipe entered the oil separator with the separator in position next tot he engine. I hoped it would be large enough and from running on the bench, I found that if I emptied it after the initial start up, not too much water was collected in it.


Regarding the make up water, there has been a lot said about water in other posts, and it is important. I do not use the de ionised water, I do use water taken from my de humidifier, so thats water taken out of the air which I believe to be soft so no issues with scaling or furring up the boiler. I am lucky, the lakes I sail at are clean, so could also use the lake water. What this project is showing me is that I will take water from the lake for the Black Swan Build, if for no other reasons, the loss of over a kilo of water and the space taken up by the tanks.


Earlier in the discussion we spoke about the bypass valve. Well with two days to go before e the challenge and with the steam plant once again out of the boat and on the bench, I set about trying to set the bypass valve up. I really could not understand why it was being so difficult, I had set two others up really easily. Any way I fiddled about with it all morning til I got it as good as possible. After lunch I decided to do a long test run of the steam plant on the bench. I filled everything up and oiled everything, then fired up the boiler, its roar was missing, it seemed to be taking longer to heat the boiler, then it was struggling to make enough steam. I stopped the test and checked everything and found dirt in the gas jet, so had to clear that.


With the boiler working again as it should the test proceeded, all was going well, then I noticed that the servo for the water bypass had not moved, I slid the sight glass sensor up to where there was definitely no water in the sight glass and waited, still nothing happened. I then reset the boiler controls and still the servo didn't move. After spending all morning setting up the servo it had now died, it could have been worse, it could have happened during the challenge. It was whilst I was changing the servo that I spotted that the servo arm was shorter than the by pass valve arm so it was not moving the bypass a full 90 degrees - which was why the valve had been so tricky to set. With a new servo installed with a longer servo arm, the set up took next to no time, the bypass definitely closed ensuring all the water entered the boiler, and when open, it was open wide enough to ensure no water entered the boiler.


I have spoken about the warning LEDs, Blue for the gas and Red for the warnings about water levels, these need to be positioned so that they can be seen whilst the model is operating. I fixed them to the towing bollards just aft of the cabin. I also installed a battery level indicator for the receiver and positioned that discretely. Another issue with an all metal hull and decking is the position of the receiver, 2.4 radios do not work through metal, so the receivers antennae had to be outside of the hull.
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KNO3

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Are those LEDs easy to see with the tugboat out on the water?
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DBS88

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Re the LED's, yes they are visible out on the water, I guess from a distance in bright light, maybe not, but then again a slow drive by nearer the bank every now and again to check them would be wise and is what most steamers will do anyway.


With time running short and the Tug not having done an extended run on the lake I called my friend to discuss the Endurance event. As it turned out his preparations were not sufficiently advanced for him to run his steam boat in the event, so, since I was to be a guest there to support him and so two two steam boats would be running, I decided that I would not make the eight hour round journey to attend. My Tug was insufficiently tested and it didn't seem right to have a guest attend and possibly become the first to complete the Clubs Endurance Challenge with a steam boat. Sorry that this story hasn't got the fairy tale ending that you might have hoped for, but I hope that the challenge can be attempted next year with at least two steam boats on the water.


Instead, on the Sunday of the event I took the Bustler Tug back to my local lake and ran it there. This was only the third time it had been on the water so I did bring it back to the bank several times to visually check the levels and pressure. Like all models, you have to learn how they behave and grow in confidence with them. The tug ran well, it maintained an impressive turn of speed for the duration of the run, the boiler pressure stayed at 4 Bar and the the boiler level was successfully maintained for the whole of the run by the electronic controls. Tug was out on the water for  45 minutes, in total, running at the sort of speeds you can see from the photos, I was very pleased. I had run out of time and the lake was getting busy so I packed up for the day. Would the Tug have completed the hour event and still be running? I still needed to find out.
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DBS88

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On the following Wednesday, having gained confidence in the way the Bustler Tug behaved, I ran it again. This time all the usual checks and preparations were done, the sight glass sensor was set about 2/3 full, with the water in the boiler just above this level. I set the stop watch and off went the model for a long run. The tug ran consistently and constantly with out stopping this time. The aim of the run was to run at speed and find out how long it could run for. The red warning LED came on at close to 50 minutes, so the Tug was returned to the Bank, for investigation, the LED was indicating that the water level in the onboard tanks was low and that the water level in the boiler was now below the sensor, so the boiler was just below 2/3 full. I didn't get a video of this run but here is a link to a video of the 2nd test run. https://youtu.be/jM7NhrXsch4

Lessons learned form the run, the oil separator capacity was fine, the displacement oiler still had a small amount of oil in it, the run had used 1 lire of water from the on board water tanks. I believe using more of the 600cc boiler capacity would allow the model to run for an hour, if I filled the boiler a bit more, lowered the sight glass sensor to 1/3 boiler and ran with a bit less enthusiasm on the throttle!

We are upto date now. One topic we have not discussed is the gas supply. For the purpose of the challenge I had installed a disposable 300gram canister. That is not what I want for the finished project and would welcome your thoughts on installing the gas. It would be good to ensure the gas tank does not suffer from cooling, that the gas can be isolated remotely from the bankside and the gas be controlled in the same way as the Dénes gas control unit achieves. To trial, I do have a Regner Gas tank that has a pipe through it for warming the tank with the hot condensate, and have the Regner Gas control valve that can be used to remotely cut the gas completely - if anyone has experience of using these gas fittings or similar gas installations, I would welcome your advice on installing them and any lessons learned.


I am happy to try more than one arrangement, because the whole purpose of this project was not to win an endurance challenge, it is to learn and to put the lessons learned into the new build Black Swan Sloop. The installation of the gas supply is a critical component to ensuring the boiler can perform at its best, if you don't get enough the heat into the boiler, you can't get enough steam out, so I really do want to get this as good as possible and welcome your experiences.
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DBS88

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Life been busy so have not done anymore to the steam plant installation other than think a bit more about the installing the Regner Gas Tank. The tank has a pipe that runs through it so that the tank can be warmed. I wish to avoid making the tank too hot so need some way of controlling the heat input to the tank - Do you think this will work? Is there another way?
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rhavrane

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Bonjour,
The position of the valve on the gas tank is not the best to my opinion because liquid gas goes to the burner when the tank is full.
My option : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4smWk7YK8I 
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Raphaël
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derekwarner

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I appreciate that Regner must have conducted trials with preheating gas, possibly for low ambient temperature conditions


Having said this we must remember the exhaust steam we are talking about is within the system of say 110 degrees C to 100 degrees C, and the latter still in a gaseous state


Piping this exhaust steam through the gas tank will transfer or give up the exhaust steam heat to the cooler liquid/gas Propane, and further reduce the temperature of the exhaust stream to condensate


The danger here is producing a greater % level of liquid, to steam exhausted via the de-oiler to the boiler chimney, or the need for a larger de-oiler capacity


As KBIO mentions on an alternate French WEBsite, monitoring the temperatures & provide this information to control the regulation of steam % to the gas tank could be considered, however does this Regner gas tank provide sufficient volume of gas for the 60-minute event [you did not confirm if multiple gas tanks could be used] or compared to the 320gm of the disposable gas container you show?


Derek     
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Geoff

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I currently just have the condensate tank touching the end of the gas tank and heat transfer ensures after a run the gas tank is hand warm which to my mind seems about right. Also as there is no hard plumbing connection to the gas tank its easy to remove for filling. Its noticeable from cold when the condensate tank warms up and the gas pressure rises the size of the burn is very obvious as you can hear the burn note change.


I also fill my tanks through the exit pipe as this wastes very little gas as opposed to a "Ronson" valve connection.


I also have a gas shut off valve (Clevedon steam) in one model with a ceramic burner so I can shut the gas off if I run out of water or catch floating debris. The other one which is a blowlamp burner I use a water jet to shoot water onto the burner which just puts it out. Not so good as the actual valve but it also works!


Cheers


Geoff
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DBS88

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Thank you all for the feedback. I agree that the valve is not in a great place at the moment so may move it to the top of the tank and possibly connect a pressure gauge where the valve is currently positioned. Also agree that more condensate will be produced so will need to monitor that to see if it becomes a problem with the de oilers capacity. The size of the Regner gas tank is 300ml, we know the gas jet is using roughly 100grams of gas per hour, so filling the gas tank 2/3 full should give enough gas for an hours run. I also agree that placing the gas tank where it touches the de-oiler works, however in this set up there is not the room to do that, so need to find an alternate way of warming the gas tank.


I have been doing some research and have found some cheap temperature probes so may use one of those just to monitor the tank temperature, the aim is for the tank to be warm and not to hot to the touch.


Have also found out a bit more about the integral de-icing pipe that is installed in the Regner Gas Tank and have included a diagram that shows my understanding of how the deicing pipe is intended to be used. The first diagram is how I first thought the steam flow would be set up, the second diagram is how I now believe Regner intend the steam flow to the de-icing pipe to be set up. Please let me know if I have misunderstood the set up
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KNO3

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Hello, your drawing is correct, the second one shows how Regner intended the heating pipe to be used. It is explained in one of their catalogues, I can send it to you if needed.
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DBS88

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KNO3, re confirmation the second drawing is how Regner intend the de-icing pipe to be set up, thank you, and yes please, it would be informative to see the information in Regner Catalogue - from the website and the leaflet that came with the tank it was not clear to me how the set up the tank.
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derekwarner

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I believe the volume is a theoretical calculation only

It does not take into account of the physical limitation, being the inlet valve venting at the end of the fluid/gas during the filling process

Derek
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Derek Warner

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derekwarner

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"Time was running out now, I had three days left, I was doubting whether I could get the Bustler ready in time:......

....'for the steam endurance event'

Hullo Dave........there were 4 1/2 thousand views & #115 messages to this thread.......did I miss out on the Endurance event results?

Derek
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Derek Warner

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DBS88

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Derek thank you for the info re the gas tank. Life has been busy for the last couple of months so no new work has been done to the Bustler although I have been sailing with it a few times and it is all working as it should. To answer your question about the Endurance Challenge the event did go ahead. I was to be a guest and there to support a friend who had built a steam boat. The event had not been completed by a steam boat before. Neither my boat nor my friends was ready in time for the event so neither of us ran. My boat had only run twice so I did not make the eight hour round trip so i will try to take part next year. The Bustler tug will run for the hour as long as it’s not at full throttle and I use most of the boilers water in addition to the on board water tanks. The next steps now are to work on the gas supply and trial some further developments of the Automatic Boiler Controller which is really exciting- will keep you posted
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