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Author Topic: Gay/ Dark class armament  (Read 2245 times)

17-09

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Gay/ Dark class armament
« on: February 19, 2022, 04:56:47 pm »

Hi everyone,
 Can anyone tell me which gun was fitted to early MGB's of the Gay and Dark classes? I know the 40mm Bofors was fitted later to both classes.
 The earlier weapon according to Janes Fighting ships was a 4.4 inch or 4.5inch, rather large for a MGB I thought. I had in my mind it was a Rolls Royce weapon but I cannot seem to find any information about it despite having a rather good selection of warship weapon books and other reference books. I have googled the Gays and found nothing....    any pointers please
Thanks
 17-09
 
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raflaunches

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2022, 05:29:20 pm »

Looks like the Gay class were fitted with a 4.5” gun forward if fitted out as a MGB. The BMPT are usually reliable as source material and in this website page it shows one fitted to one of the Gay class.
https://bmpt.org.uk/other_boats_history/Gay%20Class/index.htm


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raflaunches

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2022, 05:36:21 pm »

John Lambert’s plans of British Naval Weapons of WW2 Volume 3 book released last year has an entire chapter dedicated to the 4.5” gun.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2022, 05:37:02 pm »

Both classes could carry a 4.5 inch gun. There is a photo of Gay Cavalier with it fitted here:

https://bmpt.org.uk/boat%20histories/Gay%20Class/index.htm

It does look rather oversized! Must have been difficult to load, aim and fire on an MTB/MGB hull.

This link suggests that the gun designation was 4.5 inch 8cwt QF Mk 1

https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/media/mtb-701.392233/

There is some information about the gun here but its use on the MGBs is not mentioned.

https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/QF_4.5-inch_Mk_I_%E2%80%93_V_naval_gun

Colin
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17-09

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2022, 07:11:01 pm »

Thank you RAF launches and Colin for your speedy replies, I should have guessed that John Lambert would have a drawing of the weapon, I just did not know which weapon to research. I see the ref number and can get a copy now. My problem was that I could not see such a large gun being fitted to these relatively small MGB's, I see from your replies that others made the same point. I did in fact contact the Military Powerboat Trust for information but have not yet received a reply. I can now see why the 40mm Bofors was used as a replacement, thank you all for the clarification.
Kind regards
17-09

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derekwarner

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2022, 11:20:46 pm »


%)  I believe, postings #5 and #6 have the same message text......................Derek
----------------
Thank you RAF launches and Colin for your speedy replies, I should have guessed that John Lambert would have a drawing of the weapon, I just did not know which weapon to research. I see the ref number and can get a copy now. My problem was that I could not see such a large gun being fitted to these relatively small MGB's, I see from your replies that others made the same point. I did in fact contact the Military Powerboat Trust for information but have not yet received a reply. I can now see why the 40mm Bofors was used as a replacement, thank you all for the clarification
Kind regards17-09





Tt
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Derek Warner

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mudway

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2022, 01:53:13 am »

Simon on Shapeways does some nice 3D printed ones. If you look at them, the mounting looks to be the same size as the WW2 5 pdrs that the MTBs & MGBs carried.


https://www.shapeways.com/product/GV3HK5T4Q/1-72-4-5-quot-19-11-4-cm-8cwt-qf-mki-fore-mtb?optionId=79591103&li=shops
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derekwarner

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2022, 04:00:56 am »

Yes, including the supurb detail  & crisp work, Simpon posts some interesting history of these mountings, including...


Actual bore length was 18.88 calibers. All British 4.5" naval guns have an actual bore diameter of 4.45"

So to understand just how big this model mounting is, we can use the reference for the barrel length of the mounting
4.5" x 18.88 caliber = 84.96" actual
So at a scale of 1:72  = 1.18" at 1:72 scale [* edit]

Derek
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Derek Warner

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17-09

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2022, 09:29:23 am »

Hi to you both down under,
Thanks for correcting my post, I really should take this technology more seriously.
I have used Shapeways before for other weapons, namely a Hazemayer Bofors in 1/96th, I love to scratch build but considering the sheer amount of time involved in building one of these guns, especially in a small scale, there is no contest really, to get them printed is the way forward (sadly)
The information sent re the actual 4.5 or 4.45 gun is interesting, I still maintain they were too big for a small MGB and as was proved, the range was insufficient . 84.96inches barrel length long divided by 72 is 1.18 inches, yes it is a large lump....
Thanks again for the replies and for the info on Shapeways.
Kind regards
 17-09 Alan......
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Jonty

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2022, 01:31:38 pm »

  Was this not some sort of odd low muzzle velocity weapon? Hence low recoil forces?
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ballastanksian

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2022, 09:29:46 pm »

Like with a number of bores there were a number of different weights of barrel. the 8cwt mentioned refers to the barrel weighing 8cwt, or 8/20ths of a ton unlike the 4.5inch naval gun barrel which would have been quite a lot heavier, or the pre WW1 era 4.5inch Howitzer which is a different barrel and breech.


It fits onto the same mount as the Automatic 6pdr and so could not be too heavy, which then makes it ideal for lighter vessels such as MGBs. The oddity is that while many of our types of ordnance had a nomenclature for barrel weight as well as either shell weight, and bore, history has allowed Chinese whispers to get in whereby some know a gun as a 4.5inch, others a 115mm, others an 8cwt gun and others perhaps a 32pounder!

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philk

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2022, 07:51:24 pm »

had heard a story that the muzzle velocity was so slow you could practically see the shell wobble it's way out of the barrel
phil
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dodes

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2022, 07:24:41 pm »

Hi Colin just seen in my book, Vosper built MGB P1032 ex mtb 532 of 1946 vintage armed with the 4.5" gun. Also the Bold Pioneer, never really noticed her before, an interesting one to model as she was rated officially at 43 kts, one for the fast boys armed as a MGB with two of those pug nosed 4.5" guns.
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dodes

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2022, 05:25:29 pm »

In the Royal Navy in focus 1950-59- the Dark Clipper in march 1957 had 1x40mm gun and two torpedoes as a MTB and Dark Killer Jan 1957 is similarly armed as a MTB, but it does say they could if required to carry various combinations 4.5" gun, ground mines and depth charges. The Gay Bombardier in April 1953 was armed with twin 20mm Oerlikon gun and two torpedoes, the Gay Centurion was fitted with 1x4.5" gun, 1x40 mm bofor's aft as a MGB, the Gay Charger May 1956 had 1x4.5" forward and a 40mm bofor's aft and two torpedo tubes. The only thing i would say with the change of meaning in the dictionary for the word Gay a happy well disposed person to a homosexual person, I do not see these names ever coming back into use.
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Circlip

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2022, 01:33:18 pm »

And don't even THINK of all the boats/ships with a colour reference in their names.  >>:-(


  Regards  Ian


  Didn't the 'Gay' Gordons wear skirts?


  I'll get me coat.
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dodes

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Re: Gay/ Dark class armament
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2022, 04:32:18 pm »

If it is of interest, I downloaded from a free web site most of the Dark class if you are interested in any.
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