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Author Topic: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!  (Read 37656 times)

Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #100 on: November 12, 2022, 08:02:13 pm »

Without wishing to rain on your parade, you need to calculate how much weight you can devote to the batteries (and therefore their capacity) bearing in mind the likely weight of the rest of the model. Idealy you need to be in a situation where you still need some ballast to bring the model down to its correct waterline. Lead acid batteries come in all shapes, sizes, weigts and capacities and will need to fit under the deck as low down as possible to maximise stability.You can lay them down flat but the 'top end' is usually lighter than the bottom which can affect weight distribution.

You have taken on a major project even for experienced modellers and words of one syllable don't really cut it I'm afraid. If you can find someone who has already built this model successfully then unless you are prepared to do a lot of research then it is best to replicate that setup in the knowledge that it works. It will save you a lot of grief.

As for moving the turrets and guns, that is a whole different ball game and there are lots of posts on here which discuss it as there are many possible options.

Colin


I'm relaxed about the build - I'm a seasoned modeller, but have never tackled anything R/C.  Running gear and electrics are a mystery to me I'm afraid so I'm rather hoping one or two of the seasoned veterans on here will pile in.


Totally agree re replicating a previous build of the same battlewagon - less risk of making mistakes.


The interest in ships by the way comes from the old man - he was on HMS Myngs. I also spent hours in the museum in Sunderland when I was little looking at the models which were produced by Doxfords ship yard.  They were simply amazing to a young pup of 9.


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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #101 on: November 13, 2022, 09:33:41 am »

Batteries ordered!  Gone for 3 x 12v 7 ah sealed lead acids, which I think is correct..


Just got to sort the speed controllers and I think I'm well on the way - oh apart from leads to connect this lot up!
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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #102 on: November 14, 2022, 08:10:00 am »

so for anyone in the land of the clueless like me, and wanting to find out easily about ECSs and how you drive two engines from one channel, watch this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQIGb8VzX08

also explains what micro switch does.  Now how you drive four engines from one channel is something I need to establish, but I'm sure there are wise old souls on here that will chip in with a view before I've found a video on youtube explaining.


My big question now is what Ampage to buy for the ESCs.  Worky thing now unfortunately....
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Geoff

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #103 on: November 14, 2022, 01:57:49 pm »

Okay, if I may make some general guidance observations, there are a couple of maths formulas that can be used but the most useful one for us is Power(in watts) = Volts x amps. (P=VI)


So for practical purposes if you make up a jig with just one motor, prop shaft and propeller that you intent to use, just try it in the sink and measure the current in amps(I). You know the voltage, you then know the amps and you can calculate the wattage so total power which will give you a guide as to speed controllers.


Now if you put a 550 on 12 volts with a prop say 1" in diameter I would suspect the amperage will be quite high and the water will probably leave the basin! So if one motor draws say 7.5 amps four will draw 30 amps, so power consumption is excessive.


However, if you take a 550 and gear it down two to one the current consumption will generally be at least halved but the actual thrust not much reduced (I tried it years ago and was surprised).


Now its very easy to say gear it down but in practice this is not so easy because most gearboxes make a lot of noise. You used to be able to purchase toothed belt reduction drives, I don't know if they are still available but they work well.


It ultimately comes down to a cost/performance analysis:


1) Not all 450 or 550 motors are the same - you can get high and low current versions - you want the low current versions and they will cost "X". If you make a test rig you can find out if you need to gear them down or not before you purchase anything else.


2) How much will a toothed belt reduction unit cost? the answer is "Y" so X+Y is your cost per shaft. How much for the speed controller?(say Z)


3) How much will a brushless motor cost (say A) and how much will the associated speed controller cost (say B) so which solution is cheaper X + Y + Z or A + B?


4) Bear in mind the answer will have to be multiplied by four for four shafts and the cost can be surprising high.


5) More importantly which gives you the performance level you want. Bear in mind the lower the current consumption the longer you can sail the model.


6) In my general experience for a model of Dreadnought at 1/96 scale at scale speed you should not be drawing more than about 5 amps in all. Anything very much higher means the drive train combination is inefficient.


7) There are other ways to reduce amperage and that is to use a smaller propeller or 3 rather than 4 blades however to gain the practical experience also costs money!


8) As an added complication, say at full speed the model is going twice as fast than you want, then half speed will slow it down and generally reduce the current consumption. Electronic speed controllers (not sure about brushless) generally work by rapidly switching the power on and off. So at half speed the power is only switched on for half the time (so many times per second/frequency) so half speed = half the power consumption because the engine in only on for half the time - this is just a very general guide to the concept.


The benefit of this site is that people have already done a lot of the experimentation for you so we all gain from each others experience.


In my general view direct drive is the way to go with the right motors as its fundamentally a simpler and therefore more reliable solution (always use double Huco couplings per shaft as this is much better than a single coupling and allows for more misalignment without power loss. Perfect alignment is hard to get!


Asa previously mentioned I uses two car blower motors (from behind the dash) as they will run on 12 volts or 6 volts with low revs and very high torque, I don't know what they now cost from a breakers yard but two will easily provide more than adequate power to drive four shafts using a single speed controller. Manoeuvrability will be fine as Dreadnought has twin rudders in line with the two inner shafts. You really don't need to make the installation too complicated.


Hope this may help.


Cheers


Geoff
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Geoff

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #104 on: November 14, 2022, 02:06:48 pm »

I should have also added an item regarding stall current. This is the maximum current the motor will draw if the shaft is locked tight for some reason. This figure is very different from actual usage.


For example using my car blower motors, two in parallel, draw 3.5 amps combined but individually the stall current for a single motor was well more than 20 amps! That's as far as my ammeter read! At this current level you can blow the speed controller.


The solution is simple, put a main fuse at about 50% of the maximum current the speed controller will take and then a separate in line fuse at about 25% of the current for each motor.


For Iron Duke this translates into a 10amp fuse plus two 5 amp fuses. You can therefore loose one motor due to debris but still get home on the other.


Cheers


Geoff
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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #105 on: November 14, 2022, 02:21:59 pm »

I should have also added an item regarding stall current. This is the maximum current the motor will draw if the shaft is locked tight for some reason. This figure is very different from actual usage.


For example using my car blower motors, two in parallel, draw 3.5 amps combined but individually the stall current for a single motor was well more than 20 amps! That's as far as my ammeter read! At this current level you can blow the speed controller.


The solution is simple, put a main fuse at about 50% of the maximum current the speed controller will take and then a separate in line fuse at about 25% of the current for each motor.


For Iron Duke this translates into a 10amp fuse plus two 5 amp fuses. You can therefore loose one motor due to debris but still get home on the other.


Cheers


Geoff


Thanks Geoff - comment and guidance most appreciated.  I'd come to the conclusion that the easiest way of managing risk is to get a speed controlled that can handle high output at the top end, like the Mtronicks Viper Marine 40, which handles up to 40 amps.  It may cost a tenner more than the Marine 30, but for the sake of a tenner, why take the risk?


I've been looking at gearing, but no point in taking the plunge until I've had the motor and prop in the water in the sink.  I suspect with 4 x 550s, it may well run at Warp Factor 10!!!!


Si

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Stan

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #106 on: November 14, 2022, 02:25:31 pm »

Hi Simmerit, This the demo board I took to Blackpool to show common installations found in model boats.


Stan.
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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #107 on: November 14, 2022, 10:30:07 pm »

Hi Simmerit, This the demo board I took to Blackpool to show common installations found in model boats.


Stan.


Thanks Stan.  Iíll give you a shout.  Just replied to your pm.


Cheers


Si
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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #108 on: November 15, 2022, 08:08:54 pm »

Right then.  Stan has explained stall speed and what governs the capacity of the speed controller I need, so I've pinged Ron at Deansmarine and asked him for some advice on the motors I've bought.  Hopefully he will get back to me tonight and I can get them bought! 


So....... smoke as in funnel smoke.  That's the next challenge!  I'm getting there lads.  I thought I'd have started the thing by now!


Black smoke - clearly
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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #109 on: November 15, 2022, 08:58:26 pm »

Anyone used the TARR Mk VI PRO Transparent Smoking Unit?  They also do a model boat variant but I cant seem to find a stockist for it.  Smoke seems thicker, but I'm going to have a lad who is into R/C tanks to see what his thoughts are on the matter.  I will report back.  Wait Out (as they say)
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Geoff

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #110 on: November 16, 2022, 11:39:43 am »

Just be aware that if you want thick smoke they can be quite current hungry 12 volts in the 3 to 5 amp range. The nebulisers typically work on 24 volts so you need a converter (Component shop) but they will then still draw 1 amp plus and in my experience the nebulisers which use water are not that effective on the pond as its very thin.


Its quite a tricky area!


Cheers


Geoff
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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #111 on: November 16, 2022, 09:56:32 pm »

Just be aware that if you want thick smoke they can be quite current hungry 12 volts in the 3 to 5 amp range. The nebulisers typically work on 24 volts so you need a converter (Component shop) but they will then still draw 1 amp plus and in my experience the nebulisers which use water are not that effective on the pond as its very thin.


Its quite a tricky area!


Cheers



Geoff

It is.  I had a good poke around the subject yesterday.  Found a simply amazing O gauge engine a bloke in the US had done - smoke you'd be proud of, but no clue as to how he did it.


Just ordered my y cables, mtronics micro switches and ESCs and am now another 150 sheets light.  This boat lark is an absolute money pit!


Servos, Batteries and motor mounts turned up today.  Hopefully the motors and charger will land tomoz.  I am of the opinion I need to crack what I'm doing with smoke and get the kit ordered before I make a start as I need to plan how this lot will be laid out in the hull before I do a thing.  Seems the best thing to do to me.


Not thought through what I'm doing with the guns yet.  I like the idea of elevation and rotation.  Not convinced I'll go with smoke which was what the lad with Iron Duke did.  If the guns elevate then that means chopping up those lovely turrets.  A nice touch would be being able to elevate the guns independently on each turret, but I think its one problem at a time!


Quite. bit to thing through.  Boaty things are not to be dashed into without careful thought is the conclusion I've arrived at.


Need to work out what silicone cable I need also - Stan talked about that.  Its quite an electronic and engineering lark this boat modelling.




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Geoff

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #113 on: November 17, 2022, 09:59:15 am »

Rudder Mixer units - my view is that with a battleship which has twin rudders in line with the inner shafts its not necessary. I would counsel you sail the model for a while to get used to it and see if you really need one as they are easy to retrofit.


Cheers


Geoff
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #114 on: November 17, 2022, 10:56:34 am »

Re smoke generators, black smoke is not very easy to generate plus it tends to leave dirty deposits on the model. The link you have given is to the now more common nebuliser units which generate water vapour and are more environmentally friendly. The amount of vapour produced can vary with different units and Model Boats magazine tested the new Denes unit in the October 2022 issue which the reviewer found to produce more vapour than others he has seen. It works on a relatively low voltage too.

Information here including videos.

https://www.denesdesign.co.uk/products/sgu-steam-generator-unit

Colin
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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #115 on: November 21, 2022, 07:24:32 am »

Re smoke generators, black smoke is not very easy to generate plus it tends to leave dirty deposits on the model. The link you have given is to the now more common nebuliser units which generate water vapour and are more environmentally friendly. The amount of vapour produced can vary with different units and Model Boats magazine tested the new Denes unit in the October 2022 issue which the reviewer found to produce more vapour than others he has seen. It works on a relatively low voltage too.

Information here including videos.

https://www.denesdesign.co.uk/products/sgu-steam-generator-unit

Colin


Thanks Colin - I shall take a look.  They are the last items required before I crack on
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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #116 on: November 21, 2022, 07:25:46 am »

So after much debate, and a steer (no pun intended) from the lads at Deans Marine,  I've gone with these.



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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #117 on: November 21, 2022, 08:58:38 pm »

Re smoke generators, black smoke is not very easy to generate plus it tends to leave dirty deposits on the model. The link you have given is to the now more common nebuliser units which generate water vapour and are more environmentally friendly. The amount of vapour produced can vary with different units and Model Boats magazine tested the new Denes unit in the October 2022 issue which the reviewer found to produce more vapour than others he has seen. It works on a relatively low voltage too.

Information here including videos.

https://www.denesdesign.co.uk/products/sgu-steam-generator-unit

Colin


I've ordered one.  He recommended seeing what the output from one is before deciding if I need to add a second, which would be one per funnel. 
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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #118 on: November 21, 2022, 08:59:37 pm »

Rudder Mixer units - my view is that with a battleship which has twin rudders in line with the inner shafts its not necessary. I would counsel you sail the model for a while to get used to it and see if you really need one as they are easy to retrofit.


Cheers


Geoff


Cheers Geoff - will give it a miss.  Thanks for the ongoing advice by the way - most appreciated.


Si
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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #119 on: November 23, 2022, 08:20:13 pm »

Re smoke generators, black smoke is not very easy to generate plus it tends to leave dirty deposits on the model. The link you have given is to the now more common nebuliser units which generate water vapour and are more environmentally friendly. The amount of vapour produced can vary with different units and Model Boats magazine tested the new Denes unit in the October 2022 issue which the reviewer found to produce more vapour than others he has seen. It works on a relatively low voltage too.

Information here including videos.

https://www.denesdesign.co.uk/products/sgu-steam-generator-unit

Colin


A picture attached of the first one I ordered - the lad that produces them very kindly send me short video of him testing it.  Having seen the video, I ordered a second.  I think I've not got enough stuff to crack on and make a start.  I just need to have a think about the turrets and the guns.  I'd like to see if I can get the guns to independently elevate and lower on a couple of the turrets.  I've got 12 channels, so plenty of scope with the R/C.


Anyway - quite impressed with the smoke. 



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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #120 on: November 29, 2022, 07:53:07 am »

Anyone point me at a neat set of wiring for batteries and motors?
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Stan

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #121 on: November 29, 2022, 10:12:46 am »

The wiring of the model is down to yourself and how neat you make it I am not aware of any prewired looms for this model. I have enclosed some pictures from my Grand banks Build and the Missouri kit. Please note I have stopped using terminal blocks and now use Wago 221 blocks this is my personal choice. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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Simmerit

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #122 on: November 29, 2022, 08:07:07 pm »

The wiring of the model is down to yourself and how neat you make it I am not aware of any prewired looms for this model. I have enclosed some pictures from my Grand banks Build and the Missouri kit. Please note I have stopped using terminal blocks and now use Wago 221 blocks this is my personal choice. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))


That's nice a neat!  Those wago blocks look like a good call also.  I was hoping to make a start this weekend, but the mrs has other ideas.  Plasterers been in for a week and done 4 rooms including hall stairs and landing, so it looks like I'm on decorating duties for a bit which is a sickner........
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Rob47

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #123 on: November 30, 2022, 09:51:01 am »

my way of controlling elevation/depression.  1/72 turret, micro servo and metal linkage.



Bob
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Geoff

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Re: Deans marine HMS Dreadnought - First build!
« Reply #124 on: November 30, 2022, 12:20:09 pm »

For what its worth, I just checked on the M600 motors specifications and I would counsel they may be a little powerful and current hungry for what you need - 15,000 RPM at 3.4 amps so with four you will be pulling about 13.6 amps in all, which in my experience seems on the high side for a model of Dreadnought.


I checked RD site and they do a M500 which would be at 6,000 rpm and pulling 1.6amps so four would pull 6.4 amps or less than half. Its very surprising how little energy it takes to actually move a model like Dreadnought, when compared to say a similar length tug which has a much fuller form. High revs are really not needed.


Cheers


Geoff



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