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[tonyH]

Thanks for the comments chaps but a touch of caution is required, simply because it'll be too easy to create a bit of a lash-up from the conflicting/confusing info I'm working from . I suppose that the formula should be to stick enough guns and ventilators on and paint the whole lot black!
  Tony

[tonyH]

I'm trying to get an idea of what goes on in the fighting top as far as access is concerned. They originally had 3 multi-barrelled 1 pounder nordenfeldt up there so several crew in place. No rope ladders and no "staples" up the mast so is it (a) possible that access was up the 1 metre diameter mast or (b) via the lightweight davit fitted? Any thoughts?

[ballastanksian]

It was common practice to use the interior of the mast as access. Many of our early dreadnoughts had such access either via the vertical or supports. Have a look at either raflaunches' Dreadnought build or Geoff's Iron Duke build I recall there being some discussion on access and spotting tops ba[size=78%]ck in the day.[/size]

[raflaunches]

I must admit that I don’t have a definitive answer but I suspect that Ian is right. I’ve looked at British contemporaries of the era and they went up the outside with ladders and rungs. I’d guess that they must go up the inside on the Koningen Wilhelmina as there is no other logical way into the fighting top. As you say there are no pictures showing any rings or ladders so I’d say they must go up internally.

[tonyH]

Thanks again gentlemen. I believe we're agreed that it must be the case. A much simpler version of the attached which is for the Barbarossa (1901) from the Dreadnought Project plans where there appear to be access doors to P & S on the main and upper decks. As far as what's in the top, I'm assuming that the access hatch must be raised for (a) safety reasons and (b) so the poor "b****r" climbing up doesn't get too wet when it rains! 

[raflaunches]

That’s why I love the Victorian era- it was so innovative but at the same type so archaic!
I was going through some drawings with Ron Dean earlier this year of a Royal Navy torpedo boat which had a really strange rudder system which was more akin to a Kitchener rudder but angled outwards. Apparently it worked but probably not taken up due to complications and expense compared to a standard rudder. It’s the experimental nature that I like.

[Geoff]

I would agree, it was common to have both access routs, staples on the outside and a ladder on the inside of the mast in this era.


Cheers


Geoff

[tonyH]

This is worth watching just to see the view from the fighting top! https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-from-the-fighting-top-of-a-battleship-in-action-1909-online
  It's a pity it's silent!

[Geoff]

Wow, some amazing footage and a lot of films!


Well done for finding this.


Cheers


Geoff

[tonyH]

Aw, Shucks.....t'weren't nuthin!

[tonyH]

Am I right in thinking that the "middle stump" roughly amidships is likely to be a binnacle? Or, could it be some form of fire control?

[raflaunches]

Looks like a binnacle to me- probably put in that position to keep a decent distance from steel structures to stop i interference.

[Geoff]

For what its worth, I agree with Nick! Its too early for fire control in that year.


Cheers


Geoff

[ballastanksian]

Though irrelevant for a model that is to be painted (I presume cheekily!) the binnacle tower might have been built of brass to reduce further interference. I recall reading that  some capital ships had parts of their superstructure made of brass for the same reason though I may be wrong. I will re-read the books one day!

[tonyH]

It's the only thing it can be and it's probably, as you all propose, to be clear enough to make some difference to the accuracy. I haven't checked any measurements but I believe the height may have been reduced when they removed the battle masts and substituted lumps of, I assume, wood.

[tonyH]

Willie as of now with a few of the basic bits added. Plenty more to add as you can imagine!

[ballastanksian]

Excellent progress! I like the gun houses, supoib 

[tonyH]

Thanks......BUT.......it's always going to look questionable, simply because of the lack of certainty of info. For example, the pic below shows the "railing" cross section around the upper deck. According to one of the drawings this consisted of "storage and cages" so was a box like structure with a round top running round the whole deck, curved corners and all. It'll be about 10x4.5mm and quite a feature but getting it right could be a nightmare and do I bother? It may just be an artists impression after all!
Tony

[ballastanksian]

That smacks of an equivalent to the Nelsonian practice of putting hammocks in 'cages' around vital parts of the weather deck to protect against shrapnel before anti spall mats were introduced (see British warships in ww1 and beyond.) I think you are right that these might be an artistic representation, but however they look, they might have been an actual system probably more like mesh caging around stanchion uprights to provide shape. The domed top might have been the hammocks covered in a tarp?

[tonyH]

I reckon you're right about the "walls" being a plate bulwark with an added wadding/storage/stuff backing. I've not detailed them as such but just tacked the "blocks" in place and I'll make a decision closer to the end. I'm building the 2x6.7" guns for P and S where the bulges are and then the 4x13pdrs for the upper deck, followed by some 1pdr multi's for the fighting tops. I'm also trying to separate the boat rack frames from the awning frames, of which there seem to be dozens, without it looking like a cat's cradle of brass wire . Anyhow, this is the current state of play. The only BIG decision I've to make is the underbody colour. Both red and green are allowed and currently I favour green. Answers on a postcard to...........

[ballastanksian]

I would go green as long as it fits in with the ship as she was/is in the form you are building her. She's really trotting along now :) I look forward to seeing your guns.

[tonyH]

It's all subjective I suppose. I'm sure I've seen an early postcard on Google with Willie post rebuild (white hull/wooden masts) having a "red/brown" hull. The postcard was, of course, hand coloured, but I've also seen models of contemporary, similar, ships in Amsterdam and Den Helder museums with green underhulls so...........These are the Mk1 versions of the 280mm/210mm and 170mm guns. OK for demo purposes but Mk2 170 and 210s may follow.

[raflaunches]

Stunning work as always Tony
I would go with a green underside too as it’s different. As they are discovering with a lot of RN vessels that they weren’t all painted with red anti fouling but more often a dark grey! The green goes well with the black hull too.

[tonyH]

Certainly not stunning Nick, but thanks anyway The green was really the pre-cursor to the red so I'm sure that some dockyards would have "misplaced" a few drums.....just in case! As I noted to Ian, I'm not 'appy about the barrels on the 170mm guns. They look rather pregnant so I'm going to deliver them and work on a new pair.
What I do need advice on is the flotilla of ships boats. I'm looking for 8 or 9 and ideally I just need cheap vac-formed hulls, ranging from about 60mm to 100mm with transom sterns, apart from 1 which is a double ended lifeboat about 80mm. They've got to be lightweight since they're mounted high up. I've got a heap of veneer/1mm ply etc to play with, so does anyone have an idea of a source?
Cheers
Tony

[ballastanksian]

I'm carving a load of ships boats from balsa and detailing them with evergreen styrene strip pack backing card (it behaves better than many free card types  ) I use a 'bread and butter' method and should probably use lime or rubber tree wood as it's harder, but I think lighter is better even for a large vessel.


If definitely wanting vacformed then maybe someone like Deans would have a range suitable? Worth an ask.


But anyway, I love the guns and turrets etc!!! Not a comment on your building or interpretation skills Tony, but I think older warships look a bit better with chunkier guns as they usually have a chunkier look due to the proportions of the then mid/late Victorian designs. But she is your model so do as you feel the need to do.