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Author Topic: PT Boat help (not 109)  (Read 3273 times)

HMS Invisible

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2023, 08:59:28 pm »

OK ... a quick question re; Pictures ... when I was 'steered in the right direction' as to how to post them I thought I was told the maximum size was 300 pixels, which is why my pics look small, but in looking at other topics and pictures on them I see some of them are quite big and more visible, so what is the max size picture that can be posted please ..??
I think the restriction on attached images is 1Megabyte filesize. Forum software can automatically resize the default view to around 900pixel width until the attached image is clicked.
I think there is a forum help board devoted to images and posts.
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Ralph

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2023, 09:04:29 pm »

Try plugging your speed controller into the channel you want to use for the servo and see what happens.  If it doesn't respond then could be a transmitter fault.  Also, even though you've tested the servo, try it in the channel for your speed controller as a double check it's ok.


Ralph
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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2023, 09:15:52 pm »

Advice please people ..


I got the new speed controller today and have fitted it, (carefully and with no bare wires around) Got power sorted and motor into Ch 2 on the receiver which corresponds to the up and down movement on right hand self centering control stick on the transmitter for forward and reverse .. but .. no matter what channel I plug the servo into I am getting no response at all to left/right movement on right hand stick and none at all on left hand stick ..... also got the servo tester today BTW and have tested the servo and it is working .. soooo  .. what am I doing wrong please .. ??
Check orientation of the plugs.
After Ralph's checklist passes every thing but yet nothing moves then further investigation steps are below.
Some servos expect a high pulse height of half the supply voltage (cmos switching level).
A mini scope or even a voltmeter can check the channel pulses with respect to 0 volt level.
Things like this merit a separate thread and it isolates the tech info for many more experienced rc troubleshooters who have subscribed to new thread alert emails.
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Allen A

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2023, 11:21:50 pm »

Check orientation of the plugs.
After Ralph's checklist passes every thing but yet nothing moves then further investigation steps are below.
Some servos expect a high pulse height of half the supply voltage (cmos switching level).
A mini scope or even a voltmeter can check the channel pulses with respect to 0 volt level.
Things like this merit a separate thread and it isolates the tech info for many more experienced rc troubleshooters who have subscribed to new thread alert emails.


If mods or whoever want to transfer this to a specific page Im ok with that ..


To answer here though for the time being as an absolute amateur in RC (OK so I managed to figure out my 1/6 jeep but that came all set up) some of what you are saying is a bit beyond me, don't get me wrong I'm not totally dumb and can usually figure things out after a while but this is beginning to bug me frankly ..


Step by step then ..
The battery connections on the speed controller are pretty straight forward as are the connections to the motor, the on/of switch is fool proof and that then leaves the lead from the speed controller to the receiver ... and Im wondering if this is where I'm going wrong ... as I said in order to get the right hand self center stick to operate the motor forward and back Ive found it needs to be in channel 2 on the receiver .... but the thought has occurred though should that go to the battery terminal on the receiver as in a 'battery (power)' in scenario ..??


With the speed control lead in CH 2 as I say I have placed the servo lead into the other channels in turn but get no response at all on either stick .. I can also get lights to work from input to the various channels too so power would seem to be getting somewhere ... I  hadn't considered a transmitter fault, could be a Monday/Friday one perhaps and instinct is balking a little that the transmitter/receiver are in essence it seems mainly built for a/c to a degree so left to wonder if that has anything to do with it.


Trying to read up on it, checking online for possible compatibility issues with the servo, (Futaba S3003) the new t/r (SkyFly FS-14X/FS-A6) are apparently digital but the servo isnt I think, so again wondering if that could be an issue ??


Ive put it all down for the time being as I'm finishing painting the hull and will I think take it to Model Sport in Otley when they open on Wednesday, but in the meantime if anything Ive just said shines a light to anyone, please let me know .. erm .. in simple terms please !  :-)) :}2



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frogman3

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2023, 08:41:17 am »

HI Allen has your R/C T/X got a fail safe in it ? as its on my r/c its on the  left hand stick an from what you have said on how you have wired it up it should all work ok if not then do take it to your model sport shop an ask them about where an if you have a fail safe channel an if  there is a problem with the R/C set  an is your ESC a BEEC if so the lead from the ESC should go to cha 3 in your R/X AS this should be your throttle power lead an work the FAIL SAFE if your set has it but if your ESC is Beec THEN DONT PLUG it into the batt as damage may occur to the R/X THE LEAD SHOULD PLUG INTO CHA 3 BUT TALK to the exsperts at your model sport shop first before you do anything
chrisb
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HMS Invisible

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2023, 10:09:18 am »

...
Trying to read up on it, checking online for possible compatibility issues with the servo, (Futaba S3003) the new t/r (SkyFly FS-14X/FS-A6) are apparently digital but the servo isnt I think, so again wondering if that could be an issue ??
...
A clever computerised radio should have a menu option to switch to the 1980s ~50Hz pwm on its receiver outputs if it's mentioned in the instructions.
Your receiver has 6 pwm and no RSSI so a transmitter should be set accordingly to 50Hz pwm

A radio failsafe should already be picked up by Ralph's simple first-step checks and a servo held in position will offer resistance to you trying to move the arm.

If you want information on what you can diagnose with a voltmeter I have listed it below, step by step.
It picks up a receiver outputting a failsafe pulse and also a radio set to SERIAL or FAST rate .
A battery powered voltage scope is a gold standard diagnostic tool and take you directly to the root of many problems you can't see or make sense of. A digital multimeter is the next best thing and probably ahead of a servo tester in your toolbox priority list.


The voltmeter check explained
 In voltmeter mode you should pick up the voltage sweeping from 0.2 to 0.4 volts as you move the corresponding transmitter stick.
Spectrum at 100Hz would double the readings.
300Hz (HEC) shows as a sixfold increase in voltage and the analogue servo doesn't like that.


Further background information:
True analogue servos differ only that they use analogue timing components in capacitors and resistors and not quartz crystals . They take digital inputs. The older analogue timing method is frequency dependant which was not designed in the 60s to cope at 300Hz (HEC) rate which enables a faster response time in a servo design 

An S3003 servo will cope with Spektrum's 100Hz rate. It is not recommended to operate analogue servos at a 300Hz rate but there should be an obvious sign. S3003 and other Futaba servos are designed to handle lower 2 volt signal pulses so that wasn't ever a problem. Hitec & other no-name asian and aftermarket brands like Fleet used cmos input level chips so recommend a minimum 3 volt. It's those brands that don't work with some radios if you use 5 cell NiMH or Alkaline receiver packs.
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Allen A

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2023, 10:20:52 am »

Gentlemen thank you ...


HMS Invincible, some of your speak is a bit greek to me if I'm honest,  :o   But I will read it carefully again what you have said and apply it to my attempts at setting it all up right.


Chris, Not one to sit still and not try to help myself I have been looking around more and downloaded the manual for the transmitter/receiver combo .. I have set it to AFHDS 2A that being the recommended setting for the A6 receiver, not sure if that was it and wont until later today when the hull paint has dried enough for me to check it again, thanks for the tip re receiver plug in channel too, the manual shows it going into the Batt channel but will try Ch 3 as you suggest

Re Failsafe, Im not sure so will do more reading and researching, .... .the thing is with the manual it is all geared to a/c use and so hard to translate into a boat use scenario and there is nothing in it about a Failsafe .. ??


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frogman3

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2023, 10:42:58 am »

WELL Allen 2 Qeustions from me is your ESC a Beec one ?
an
AN IS YOUR R/C a new one or an old one ? as if new then you should have instructions booklet with it but if an old one then maybe no fail safe is built in an ask at model sport
chrisb
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HMS Invisible

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2023, 11:05:50 am »

...
HMS Invincible, some of your speak is a bit greek to me if I'm honest,  :o   But I will read it carefully again what you have said and apply it to my attempts at setting it all up right.
That's what I think about aircraft radios, their instructions with all the brand specific acronyms you will soon see.
Nowadays legacy standards that made equipment work universally has gone out the window. What you get are escs that can tell a receiver (my chosen phrase) to switch to serial mode if its plugged in and switched on in sequence and other complications.

Ralph's simple "swap plugs around and observe" was enough to get to the root of your problem before their introduction.
It still goes a long way but I can't see or remember what the outcome was.

The next in the list is a voltmeter check which boils down to "stick a meter on the output" if it doesn't change between 0.2 to 0.4 volt as you waggle the stick no wonder you have problems!
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Allen A

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #34 on: July 11, 2023, 12:36:17 pm »

Well I just spent the last hour or more 'playing' again but with no luck ..


Re; the servo, weird thing is if I put an adapter lead into receiver, any position it seems, then plug that into the servo tester and plug the servo lead into the tester I get power and can test the servo and it works, but if I plug the servo direct into the receiver, any channel, nothing at all ??
Also Ive found that  Ch 1 on the receiver gives me motor power on the left hand stick on a left/right (self return) setting, Ch 2 gives me motor power on the right hand stick up/down (self return) setting, Ch 3 though gives me motor power on the left hand stick up/down but with no self return, very difficult to set stop accurately.. !


Re; Voltmeter, Sorry about this, but can you talk me though setting it up ABC 123 please, I have one and can set up to check ohms and battery power etc but that's about it, what setting do I need to put on it and what output do I connect to for the reading check ..


Im beginning to wonder if the T/R combo is a new one or something someone has returned as whereas I have not had the receiver fitted in any way there are wear marks to it, the box wasn't sealed, not sure if it should have been and of course as I said, there were no manuals or instructions in the box .. definitely a trip to ModelSport tomorrow .. !!


Thanks for the advice help and patience folks ..  :-))
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HMS Invisible

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #35 on: July 11, 2023, 01:52:36 pm »

Well I just spent the last hour or more 'playing' again but with no luck ..


Re; the servo, weird thing is if I put an adapter lead into receiver, any position it seems, then plug that into the servo tester and plug the servo lead into the tester I get power and can test the servo and it works, but if I plug the servo direct into the receiver, any channel, nothing at all ??
Also Ive found that  Ch 1 on the receiver gives me motor power on the left hand stick on a left/right (self return) setting, Ch 2 gives me motor power on the right hand stick up/down (self return) setting, Ch 3 though gives me motor power on the left hand stick up/down but with no self return, very difficult to set stop accurately.. !
Quote
That is what I tentatively expected and it narrows it down with useful information that Ralph and myself were after to confirm the servo works, the transmitter and receiver works, the speed control works and the receiver isn't in failsafe. You are going in the right direction.

The esc model matters & Internet based info can further narrow down the problem by eliminating possibilities I've alluded to. There are instances where a speed control can pick up a receiver signal where the servo can't for two reasons that I know of and you might identify before a trip to the shop.

Before speculating further, are you saying when you add the servo tester into the circuit and the servo moves do you mean the servo tester is Y-leaded with the servo and both servo and tester take a position signal from the receiver or do you mean the servo connects to the tester output?
If it's the former no wonder it is confusing the hell out of you but you found the problem, there's a solution and I referred to the issue in my earlier reply.
I suggest clarify the above that but only play with the voltmeter so far as to set it to dc volts up to 20 and say if you can safely make connections to take readings from the receiver without shorting pins together.
Quote
Re; Voltmeter, Sorry about this, but can you talk me though setting it up ABC 123 please, I have one and can set up to check ohms and battery power etc but that's about it, what setting do I need to put on it and what output do I connect to for the reading check ..


Im beginning to wonder if the T/R combo is a new one or something someone has returned as whereas I have not had the receiver fitted in any way there are wear marks to it, the box wasn't sealed, not sure if it should have been and of course as I said, there were no manuals or instructions in the box .. definitely a trip to ModelSport tomorrow .. !!


Thanks for the advice help and patience folks ..  :-))
It should be online.
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frogman3

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #36 on: July 11, 2023, 03:09:29 pm »

WELL Allen 2 Qeustions from me is your ESC a Beec one ?
an
AN IS YOUR R/C a new one or an old one ? as if new then you should have instructions booklet with it but if an old one then maybe no fail safe is built in an ask at model sport
chrisb


WELL Allen you dint answer my two qeustions ?
chrisb
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Allen A

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2023, 03:45:53 pm »

 :-)  ... Hi Chris, sorry, do miss stuff sometimes and I may show as online but thats because I never shut a forum down until I switch PC off, but it doesn't mean I'm at the PC 24/7 ..[size=78%] [/size] ok2


I have been working at trying to figure the problem out and doing other things, just sat down with a coffee and saw your message ..


My ESC is a Mtronics Viper Marine 15 and is new, the transmitter/receiver, I take it you meant that by R/C , is new but as I said it didnt come with a manual and is apparently more suited to a/c. I downloaded it so I could read and see what I needed to do, its where and why I made sure it was set to AFHDS 2A as per manual instructions, there is no info in it about boats, all geared to a/c as I say.


Salvation may be at hand, had contact from someone local and they have invited me over to theirs with my stuff to check it out for me, trip to Modelsport on hold then ..
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HMS Invisible

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2023, 04:19:02 pm »

You've got the choice of four channels and the esc worked on the others so I don't see how a failsafe is a factor in the problem.
The esc model works on pwm and not  these fancy aircraft sBUS modes. If the radio was set to 300Hz pwm the esc servo would still work (badly) but the servo wouldn't completely stop.
 I'm still unclear from your earlier post if you took moved the servo under control of the transmitter stick when you added the tester into the circuit or you operated a rotary knob on the tester or whether the tester's presence is just making the servo spring into life as it normally should by adding a load or buffering/smoothing he bec voltage.
Made an edited correction after ROB47 posted
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Rob47

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2023, 04:24:04 pm »

:-)  ... Hi Chris, sorry, do miss stuff sometimes and I may show as online but thats because I never shut a forum down until I switch PC off, but it doesn't mean I'm at the PC 24/7 .. ok2


I have been working at trying to figure the problem out and doing other things, just sat down with a coffee and saw your message ..


My ESC is a Mtronics Viper Marine 15 and is new, the transmitter/receiver, I take it you meant that by R/C , is new but as I said it didnt come with a manual and is apparently more suited to a/c. I downloaded it so I could read and see what I needed to do, its where and why I made sure it was set to AFHDS 2A as per manual instructions, there is no info in it about boats, all geared to a/c as I say.


Hi Allen if you are using mtroniks viper 15 then yes it has bec as do most modern esc, as for failsafe on all my flysky sets i have the option to set up failsafe, as far as I know its not set on one channel as you may not want it on that, I can set it on any channel that I want so most useful.  Sounds as if you might be getting there at last


Bob


Salvation may be at hand, had contact from someone local and they have invited me over to theirs with my stuff to check it out for me, trip to Modelsport on hold then ..
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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #40 on: July 11, 2023, 04:52:50 pm »

HI Allen now bob has said all that i asked you sir in his post
Hi Allen if you are using mtroniks viper 15 then yes it has bec as do most modern esc, as for failsafe on all my flysky sets i have the option to set up failsafe, as far as I know its not set on one channel as you may not want it on that, I can set it on any channel that I want so most useful.  Sounds as if you might be getting there at last[/size]


an as your ESC is becc THEN DONT fit the esc power lead to your batt plug in your receivver or u may damage it fit the power lead in cha 2 or 3  where you want the throttle but has your T/X GOT a ratchet on the left stick  ?  as that where its best so you can control the throttle easy an ive only heard of havin failsafe on cha 3 but as your r/c tramsmitter is for A/C IT MAY HAVE f/s on other cha but yes go see that gent an get things sorted but im wondering if the r/c is new as you should have had some instrucuions with it
good luck an hope you get it sorted
chrisb
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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2023, 09:23:21 pm »

Just to point out that plugging a BEC ESC into the battery port on the receiver will not damage it. However as there is no signal connection to the battery socket the ESC will not work although the receiver will be powered up. Many receivers with at least 8 channels use one of the sockets as both battery power and servo, a y lead allowes both to be connected at the same time. In fact all of the receiver sockets can be used to connect a battery or ESC to provide power as the positive and negative are all conected internally. Plugging the lead in reversed will also not cause damage with the present standard of the positive in the center so that reversing the connections just swaps the signal and ground which doesn't harm the receiver although it will not of course power up.
Jim
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Allen A

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #42 on: July 12, 2023, 10:04:27 pm »

By way of an update
Todays visit was a success, and I must admit to feeling a little foolish as in simple terms I had the connectors the wrong way around .. now I am aware of polarity issues and did switch the connectors around but in pairs and not individually, consequently of course there was still a polarity issue not surprisingly, the help and advice given here was much appreciated but it is one thing to have something you know nothing about explained in written form, but another of course when and where a hands on approach is given, as it was today, my grateful thanks to Stan for patiently showing and explaining things to me.
There was rudder issue to in as much as it was binding a little, it seems the guy who built it hadn't aligned the servo and rudder bar correctly and the connecting bar was causing a small binding when operated, I managed to fix that when I got home having had it explained to me what I needed to do.
In short may I present to you the finished product, what I like to call a rescue repair, well nearly finished as I have some touching up to do but have run out of the paint color I need, also as I didn't smooth down the hull before I painted it the masking tape didn't it seems go down flat and I have a small paint run issue to sort out too.. 
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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2023, 05:42:54 pm »

Hhmmm  Im beginning to wonder if I did anything wrong .. apart from the silly mistake with the electrics that is .. don't get me wrong, not looking for compliments or whatever but perhaps thought there might be some observational comment or constructive critique ... ??


Im happy with what Ive done as a first time boat project, not up to the high standard that's out there I know, but then again as Clint Eastwood once said in one of his films .. a mans got to know his limitations .. and I know mine .. and as I like to put it .. I do the best I can with what  haven't got  :-)
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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2023, 10:39:35 pm »

Hhmmm  Im beginning to wonder if I did anything wrong .. apart from the silly mistake with the electrics that is .. don't get me wrong, not looking for compliments or whatever but perhaps thought there might be some observational comment or constructive critique ... ??


Im happy with what Ive done as a first time boat project, not up to the high standard that's out there I know, but then again as Clint Eastwood once said in one of his films .. a mans got to know his limitations .. and I know mine .. and as I like to put it .. I do the best I can with what  haven't got  :-)
You obviously took in the the point about picture filesize limit and hit the mark when comparing hands on versus written instructions. Next you solicit feedback.
 I think you also see the worth of a photo on the forum so I'll critique your wiring. Make the esc's yellow/blue a twisted pair and do the same to its 16 gauge red/black pair to minimise self inductance.

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2023, 10:49:28 pm »

Alan.......in the image of the 'current power layout'.....we see a universal joint between the motor and the prop-shaft, however whilst the motor appears to be square to the hull cut-out, it is clearly out of alignment with the prop-shaft


You will find when the alignment is corrected, less noise, higher shaft speed and more importantly lower current draw which will lengthen running time :-))


Derek
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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2023, 11:07:53 pm »

I'm sorry .. whose 'soliciting feedback' ??  .... merely though there may have been a constructive comment or two is all, sorry you apparently don't have time for that or for newbies, or think you need to encourage them .... as for the pictures etc, as I said in an earlier post I simply made the mistake of trying to load them from the wrong link .. !!


Derek, thank you .. yes I'm, aware of that and have tried to straighten it, not to make excuses but as I have said the guy who 'built' this in the first place made a right hash of it and its been a bit of a challenge to reverse a lot of it .., I am going to change the coupling for a universal joint type, I have bought a lower power battery which is smaller and fits to the rear and should I think bring the bow up a little as she sits bow down a little with the battery as it is in my power layout pic.


Finally got the 'action crew' and finished painting them today, I'm hoping to be able to sail her at her weekend .. ?
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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2023, 11:37:49 pm »

 {-)
Your term is observational comment or constructive critique and my shortform version is "soliciting feedback".
I think it is inciteful and guessed you have management training.

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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2023, 10:16:39 am »

Actually all I was wondering is if I had done anything 'wrong' or could have done something simpler or better in the rescue and rebuild of this boat .. and as a newbie to this particular subject was perhaps expecting comment along those lines and which is why I posted as I did .. you obviously have a lot of knowledge going by the info you gave in answer to my elecs. query, but it seems sometime the more knowledge some people have the less they can impart it down to the level of someone less knowledgeable, and despite being grateful I'm sorry but some of what you said, given my lack of understanding of RC, was over my head and didn't really help ..  conversely in less than 5 minutes and in being shown and having it explained hands on and in simpler terms it made sense.


No, no 'management training' just common sense and a desire to learn and one way of learning is from comments on the completion of project the details of which have been submitted for that purpose ..
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Re: PT Boat help (not 109)
« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2023, 12:08:56 pm »

Alan, thanks to today's headlong dive into the realms of micro electronics with everything,  unless you have a degree in electronic teknowleggy, stupidity and arrogance trump your attribute of common sense. Remember when you needed a seven year old to set a VHS video recorder? Wonder how many Golfers used the multi speed recording facilities of some video cameras?


 Unfortunately, the one size fits all attitude of most R/C manufacturers can leave some boaties in a cornfield of cr-p on inter connections as each company does its own thing with wiring. Weeds and chaff abound but don't despair, some are on the same frequency as you, recognition doesn't take long.


  Regards  Ian. :-))
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