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Author Topic: Sail control of square riggers.  (Read 8548 times)

Popeye

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Sail control of square riggers.
« on: November 15, 2007, 10:50:36 AM »

I'm in the process of planning the construction of HMS 'Supply' a late 18th Century brig which landed the first settlers in colonial Australia. 8)

The model will be to 1:32 scale giving overall dimensions of approx 12" beam, 45"loa, and 6" draft so there will be masses of space internally to accommodate servos/winches etc.

I've no  experience  :-\ of the sail control of square riggers - my previous efforts have concentrated on fore 'n aft rigged craft - so Iv'e knocked up  a skeletal 'test bed'  to the hull's dimensions, including masts and yards,  in order to determine optimum servo (lever arm and/or drum winch) configurations and sheet runs/ deck exit points before I committ materials to the blade.

I'd therefor welcome tips and advise from  fellow modellers who have ventured into square rigger territory  and successfully mastered the complexities of sail control  and boat handling. O0

Thanks in anticipation of your valued contribution/s. :angel:



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MikeK

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2007, 05:15:41 PM »

I'm sure I have read about this in a back issue of MMI, sorry cannot remember which issue
Mike
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RickF

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2007, 07:14:27 PM »

You might like to have a look at William Mowll's book "Building a Working Model Warship", which deals with HMS Warrior. In it he describes the system he used for controlling the square-rigged sails. It's also a pretty good book for modelling in general.

Rick
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MCR

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2007, 10:39:26 PM »

Try the Modellers world series "An introduction to radio cntrolled scale models" by Phillip Vaughan Williams
& "Historical sailing ships remote controlled"
by Martin Becker
The best books I have seen and used.
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tigertiger

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2007, 08:11:09 AM »

Try the Modellers world series "An introduction to radio cntrolled scale models" by Phillip Vaughan Williams
& "Historical sailing ships remote controlled"
by Martin Becker
The best books I have seen and used.

I also have both these books and between them they seem to cover everything.
Got them from Traplet Publications on line.

The simplest solution seems to be where the masts are rotated at the base by motor/servo. and the yards are attached to the mast directly.
One channel for the foremast, and a second channel for the Main and Mizen masts. This allows tacking, as the point at which the fore sails need to rotate is earlier. This way they pull the ship around.

But diagrams for sheeting of the sails are also in the books. Where the masts are fixed and the yards swing.

The first option has less opportunities for snagging, and I assume would allow you greater flexiblity for more 'detailed' standing rigging.
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Brooks

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2007, 12:46:32 AM »

I've posted a long, 2 part thread on RC control of my 4-masted barque. Perhaps the descriptions and photos will help. The hull is 3' long. The masts are stationary and the yards are swung with braces using the "parallelogram method." The sailplan follows that of Pamir. The standing rigging follows Boyle's method (a 1930's model skipper from Great Britain).

Part 1 covers rigging and sailing. Part 2 is more sailing and discussion. I split them simply to make it easier for me to search for old posts :-). I'd be happy to explain anything that's not clear in the threads.

The barque sails very well, btw, much better than my reading had lead me to believe. I can wear, tack, boxhaul, beat, reach, run, etc. Winds over 20 knots are a challenge, but by reducing sail, I find it possible to continue to cruise. I quit when the gusts reach 26-30 knots - the barque is not setup to easily reduce sail below the configuration shown in a 1948 Nat. Geographic photo of the Pamir in a gale, otherwise I'd continue. This is all covered in the threads.

Square-riggers are eminently suitable for RC fun. My sailing progress was speeded by reading and re-reading John Harland's "Seamanship in the age of sail." I'm sure you will have a lot of fun with your ship.

Part 1:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=743611
Part 2:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=761962

Videos: some are imbedded and some are in a separate thread:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=756572
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Brooks

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2007, 03:21:59 AM »

I should mention that the barque started out as a free-sailer. Thus, the first posts on part 1 are about her before conversion to RC. There's a lot of fun to be had setting a ship to sea, and then walking around to the other side of the pond to retrieve or relaunch her. My brigantine is still free-sailing, as are my sandbagger and my wife's cutter. RC is not mandatory if you have the right pond, and if you enjoy old-style model boating.
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andrewh

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2007, 01:01:02 AM »

Popeye,

This is straight forward:

1) read everything people have recommended
2) do what Brooks suggests

See his video of Pamir for verisimilitude

Having said all that, I am doing something a little different, but only in detail,  for Volante using GWS 1-turn winches

There is also a recent article in model boats which details and pictures how to build and sail a ship - I can find the reference given a few minutes.

On MBM there is also Brian
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Modellers/Brian/1ndex.htm
Who is staggeringly helpful and successful at sailing and building squareriggers

How far are you along?  What construction?  Need any help? 

andrew
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Brooks

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2007, 02:33:15 AM »

Andrew, I appreciate the vote of confidence :-).

I should caution folks that "my method" sacrifices some important features of scale rigging in the interests of simplifying the running rigging. I put "my method" in quotes because I just built on stuff others have already done. About the only "new" thing was my figuring out how to run fore&aft sheets off the same servo as the braces...and I'm sure someone, somewhere, has done the same thing the same way :-).

To recap the important square-rig specific features missing on the barque:
The shrouds are sacrificed.
ditto proper lead of braces to the yardarm (instead of the barque's lead to the quarters near the slings).
ditto individual braces for each yard.

If you can live with these omissions, or even better, figure a way to include them, then "Here's to Us, and Hold your Luff. Plenty of Prizes and Plenty of Duff."
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dreadnought72

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2007, 09:53:09 AM »

Brooks, I've just enjoyed your postings and videos that you kindly linked. Many thanks!

Andy
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andrewh

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2007, 07:38:57 PM »

For my Volante, Brig I am planning to use two sail winches tho most people seem to use sail arm servos.

To make sure that everything waggles under reasonable control I have built a BigBrigRigJig - see picture which dummies the dimensions of the Brig and layout of deck and servos - see picture.

Seems to work very well so far - it has enabled me to see how much swing I can get on the yards before they contact something.

To begin with i am going to control the square rigged masts (fore and main) together with the Fore and aft sails (F&A) sheeted logically to the square sails, and worked of the same servo  - or possibly just the same channel.  Hope to be able to picture this soon.

Pics in another camera - to follow



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DanL

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2007, 03:29:49 AM »

Popeye -  a very long thread, but a lot of info on many aspects of RC build and control of a square rig brig.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520465

DanL
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Popeye

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2007, 07:51:56 PM »

Many thanks to all those kind folk who responded to my enquiry. particularly Brooks Martin whose contribution was invaluable

I've now got a lot of reading to do, which is a good antidote to Eastenders. ;)

Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year to all.  :kiss:
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Jimmy James

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2008, 08:06:30 PM »

I have a razee Frigate 52" Long & a Briganteen 48" LOA on Both the Square sails are connected to a deck moumted capstans (2 0n the Frigate -Main capstain on the fore deck between the fore & mainmasts and the jeers Ccpstan mounted on the quaterdeck between thr main & Mizzenmast) the capstans are mounted directly on the shaft of a geared 100/1 motor mounted on the under side of a hatch (the body of the caostan can be made from a small wooden drawer nob or constructed from a peace of dowling with 6 or 8 vert. bits of wood glued on to make the lands( Ridges) and fit the inside from a choc box in the base of the capstan body to have an easy fix grub screw for fixing to the motor shaft...the control of each one is a home made "bobs board" ie: 2 bits of brass or copper glued to thin ply which is fixed on a survo. there is no need for a speed controler or stop switches just run an endless messenger (line) from the capstan at 90 deg through the bulwarks and forward (or aftif you prefer) through a lead block and back to the capstan. all you need is to wax the messenger line take 3 TURNS ONLY around the capstan and ajust the tenson with a bit of hatters elastic. you will find you have complet control just by attaching the tacks of the courses (Lower corners of the lower square sails ) and have working winches on deck that you can see all the time and are easy to work on and they look good too.if you wish photo's of the working rig get in touch with me through Martin at mayhem and i will help as much as I can.
Jimmy (Master Under Sail) Retired
 
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tigertiger

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2008, 05:55:51 AM »

Hi Jimmy

Would love to see some pictures or diagrams.
And what is a 'bobs board' never heard of one of those, any chance of a diagram please?

TT
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Jimmy James

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2008, 12:37:24 PM »

To TT
Photos and diagrams of square Rig control.
Can post them to you if you can send me your address.  I suggest you ask Martin at Mayhem to send me your email address so we can correspond.
I' m away on the 2nd Feb for a month so if you can get in touch with me ASAP will respond as soon as pos...
Regards
Jimmy James

 
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tigertiger

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2008, 10:17:47 AM »

To TT
Photos and diagrams of square Rig control.
Can post them to you if you can send me your address.  I suggest you ask Martin at Mayhem to send me your email address so we can correspond.
I' m away on the 2nd Feb for a month so if you can get in touch with me ASAP will respond as soon as pos...
Regards
Jimmy James

 

Hi Jimmy
I have Pm'd you.
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Jimmy James

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2008, 12:51:44 PM »

To Popeye (TT)
Will post Photos, Disk & Hand drawn Plans Monday you should have them tus/wed
Regards Jimmy
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tigertiger

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2008, 01:03:45 PM »

thanks Jimmy
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Brooks

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2008, 03:46:58 AM »

I would be interested in seeing Jimmy Jame's photos, if either of you guys would care to post them. Thanks.
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Jimmy James

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2008, 10:48:03 AM »

TT
 If you wish to pass on any copies of the sketches or photo's to Model Mayhem or anyone who requests them you have my unreserved permission. I don't have a scanner and my computer skills are basic so anything I do is handdrawn and posted but I'm always glad to help if I can.
Jimmy (Freebooter)
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tigertiger

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2008, 01:34:15 PM »

Hi Jimmy

Will try to. But I will be travelling for a month and using others computers.
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craigtx

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2008, 08:08:06 PM »

i ran my rigging from one servo,brooks idea with eye screws and mono fishing line.
you only need to bring the sails out of backwind once you tack, then the wind will do the rest.
this is a simple way but far from scale.
the pirate ship sails are controled from the mizzen mast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BciZOv8pMjk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jBPs3ofypU
the windjammer has the braces ran from the ends of the yards but the servo only controls the lower sails
top sails control by boyles loops. lots of good info here.
http://www.swcp.com/usvmyg/
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Jimmy James

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2008, 06:56:03 PM »

To TT
Did you get the disk, plans and photo I Sent to your brothers???
From Jimmy
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George Steele

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Re: Sail control of square riggers.
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2008, 08:32:50 PM »

My experience is limited to several sails using the brig sold by Steel, Chapman & Hutchinson Ltd of Palo Alto California. see <modelsailingships.com>
   The brig was completely built when it was loaned to a sailing group. I volunteered to house the brig. I up and down rigged it several times and sailed it twice.
    The hull and deck etc are fiberglass. The masts are in Tabernacles. The bowsprit assembly pulls out of a hole in the bow. All needed standing rigging that must be "undone" when downrigging the boat is refastened during uprigging with plastic cable ties. These are cut when downrigging.
     The boat comes with a commercial cart or dolly.
      The boat's ballast is a heavy, beautiful lead casting which has two stainless steel bolts cast into it. They extend about a foot upward out of the casting. The first step at the pond is to unload the cart, place the ballast on it and then heave the boat out of the station wagon and lower it onto the two upright bolts (which you cannot really see because the hull is between your eyes and the ballast bar.) You then screw on the two wingnuts on the top of the bolts which stick up just enough above the deck. Inside the hull thee bolts are encased in clear, water tight plastic tubes.
      Next you insert the bowsprit into its "hole" and fasten the shrouds etc with plastic  cable ties.
      The foremast (or is it the main mast. I am not sure now-its been some years) is in two pieces. The topmast has a rod sticking out of it which fits into a hole in the top.
I forget  exactly how the shrouds are fastened to the top. The lanyards in the deadeyes are black elastic, The other mast is similar.
       Under the deck are four servos (and the batteries and receiver and fuses). One servo controls the jibsheet and the spanker sheet. A second controls the rudder. Another controls the yard of the foresail and the last controls the lowest yard on the main mast. These two haul in and let out the braces which travel from the hold up to the top and then forward and the other aft to the two lowest yards where they are attached about three inches out from the very center of the yard. They do NOT go to the usual place at the outer ends of the yards.
       Now for THE SECRET. There are no  sheets or tacks on the foresail. There is an invisible bentinck boom made of stainless steel that is hidden in the leaches of the foresail and travels across the foot thereof in the tabling. There is a "hold down" attached to the middle of this invisible boom that goes to an eyebolt in the deck
       The topsails and topgallants are cable tied to the yards below and they follow them when they are moved by their servos.
       That is about all I know. You can follow the construction and sailing of both the brig and the frigate on <rcgroups> by going down to sailboats.
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