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[andygh]

Hi again, I'm after a bit more advice

I've finally got round to building "Guardsman" using the vac-formed hull I purchased from MB 10+ years ago.

With the hull in mind I decided to build the main part of the model in styrene, including the deck. The wooden parts of the superstructure will be made from mahogany & I'd like to plank the deck using .5mm x 4mm wooden planks. What I'm after is advice on what kind of adhesive I should use & any tips people who've done this before might pass on.
I'd really prefer not to plank onto a sub-deck of plywood & then fix it down if at all possible

[barryfoote]

Try a medium thickness superglue. I did it once on a small Caldercraft model and had no trouble withit.

Barry

[Colin Bishop]

That's interesting as I've just junked the styrene deck of my Dean's Medea kit in favour of a ply one - a lot lighter.

If you want to go ahead with the styrene deck, as most people seem to these days, then it may still be worth using a very thin backing of 1mm ply as this will be easier to stick to the styrene and the planks can then be stuck to it using conventional gluing techniques. I may be wrong but I suspect that trying to stick lots of wooden planks (possibly with caulking) directly to a styrene base might be a bit messy and disheartening!

[Capt. Spaulding]

Turning the discussion on its head, I have some experience with a styrene deck over a 1/4" balsa sub-deck, using epoxy as the adhesive. The model: a 35" destroyer (loosely based on the MMI/Traplet "USS Bostock" plan). My verdict: never again. The painted deck looked great on the workbench, smooth and sleek, but the styrene buckles during warm sunny weather (and summers in New Jersey, USA, can get quite hot). The problem may lie in the use of epoxy. Any thoughts?

[DickyD]

Its not the epoxy its the two different materials expanding at different rates in the heat.

[Colin Bishop]

Styrene will expand whether it is fixed to something else or not. Years ago I built a model of the Bardic Ferry to Model maker plans. It had a long flat working deck aft which I made of styrene, about 14 inches long by 6 inches wide. It was detachable for access and clipped down at both ends. Whenever the boat was left out in the sun the deck would expand and bow up about half an inch or so in the middle, going back to its normal size when it cooled off. Since then I've never been enthusiastic about incorporating large areas of styrene in my models. OK for small areas and fittings though.

[barriew]

I've used ordinary PVA wood glue. Planks still stuck down after 18 months or so. But of course we've not had any summers in that time

Barrie

[andygh]

If two different materials expanding at different rates causes problems, then using a ply deck in between will introduce yet another expansion rate and make things worse, or am I completely wide of the mark?

[Colin Bishop]

Wood planking on a ply base won't cause problems as they are both wood and expansion would be negligible. Still a possible problem with the wood to styrene joint though. But if you were to substitute a 1/32nd ply deck with planking on top and no styrene the problems would go away altogether! You can't beat traditional materials!

[andygh]

Cheers Colin

Although I love working with wood and that's the way I'd normally go about it, in this case I have decided that it isn't an option. All my previous planking has indeed been on ply decks but I have built various other parts on my boats (some quite large parts) using mixed materials & never had problems (yet ), even ply decks bonded to styrene hulls are still going strong after 15-20 years

I'll just have to give it plenty of thought, where there's a will and all that

[Colin Bishop]

There's never a "best" way - just different ones and we all have our preferences and prejudices. Just listen to everyone and then make up your own mind. It usually works!

[andygh]

Thanks all, good advice

[Wetwater]

   I use liquid poly cement for small areas and the tube variety for the larger jobs.  Sticks styrene to balsa, ply, lolly sticks etc.
   Depending on the thickness of the styrene, the thicker the better, a good soaking with the liquid poly softens it up enough
   to enable it to penetrate the grain of whatever wood is used.  The tube poly is obviously better for the larger jobs as it doesn't
   evaporate / dry so quickly.

   If possible, a bit of sliding about between the components before they get a good hold helps the soft styrene to penetrate better.

   Grab time is very quick and so far I have not had any joints fail under normal use.  I have tried various types of adhesive for styrene
   to wood joints but find this way to be the best.  Try it on a few scraps and judge for yourself.

[andygh]

Thanks, that never occurred to me, I'll give it a try

[Capt. Spaulding]

re attaching styrene to wood: it seems as if the old adage "Never mix, never worry" applies here, too.

[sinjon]

I have used double sided tape a few times - individual planks, with (tape) caulking, it was on ply, but I would have thought that it would be even better onto styrene.
There was an article in a boat mag about it. Certainly a very easy and clean way to put down planks.
If you are interested I could try and hunt it down.

Colin

[John W E]

hi all

just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, or fuel amongst the fire  I did the above - planked on top of some styrene some three or four years ago on the Moray Firth's bridge.   I have just had a good look at this - and I actually just 'picked the planks off' this afternoon - with no force - one hard push and off they came and they were mahogany planks which I had glued on with LocTite superglue  :-\

aye
john e
bluebird

[andygh]

Colin, yes I would be very interested to see that if you can find it, ta

Bluebird, that takes superglue out of the plans then, ta

[Red_Hamish]

Hello all, sorry but slightly off topic here please excuse me. Bluebird are we ever going to see a pic of Moray Firth built in Lewiss' yard Aberdeen?

cheers

Jim

[bogstandard]

Over fifteen years of sailing, well over a thousand hours of steaming in all sorts of weather. Maybe the planks are stuck rather well inside and out onto an abs hull.

How? 50/50 mix of evostik and cellulose thinners. Paint onto the plank, paint onto the hull, it evaporates fairly fast so the bits can be brought together fairly quickly. No stringing, just a very good and flexible joint. Then covered in epoxycote. had a bit of trouble after about fifteen years, the epoxy coating was compromised by an idiot not looking where he was going, but just cut out planks, peeled off old, stuck in new and recovered boat in coating. Hasn't seen the water since, but everything still rock solid.
The lads in the club now use this method for deck planking with no problems at all. Just covered in a bit of varnish afterwards.

John

[Red_Hamish]

Hello Joh, that looks lovely  Do you dry fit all of the planks before sticking them on? The other question which then relates is, do you then have to do it all at once?

cheers

Jim

[andygh]

Cheers John, I knew someone on here would have a solution  :)

Do you think acetone would be OK instead of cellulose thinners?

[John W E]

Hi there, slightly off topic, but for Red Hamish, a quick photograph of the rather dusty 'Moray Firth' from the Pottinger plans.   Pics a bit blurry - the ship had just docked 

aye
john e
bluebird

[bogstandard]

Gents,

When I did this, I just made up enough dry fit planks for about two or three rows. There is no rush, they will still stick after about ten minutes drying time. I did this most probably over a two or three week period.
I would just try it on a bit of scrap first, just so you can get a feel for it. If you want plank spacing on a deck I would pop a bit of plasticard or litho plate every so often along the joint, and pull it out as soon as the plank is in position, then go straight onto the next plank. Don't worry if you get any on the top surface, it just sands straight off, or you could use a scaper. If you want to simulate caulking, this can be put into the semi set glue along the edge of the plank before the next one is butted up to it, again you will have plenty of time.
Don't rush it, it's not going to get up and run away overnight, it will still be there next time you come to do some.

I have only ever used el cheapo  gunwash cellulose thinners, about £8 a gallon last time I bought some. I mix it up in a small sealable container (35mm film case), and just put a spot more thinners in when it starts to thicken up with evaporation. Stirred not shaken. A solid brush soon softens up after coming into contact with the glue again. Then throw the remnants and brush away when you have finished at the end of the job.

If you want to try acetone, try it on a bit of scrap, and come back an hour later to see if you can peel the planks off easily, if not, you've cracked it.

I didn't use dollops of the stuff, just a very thin layer on each part. If you put too much on you might have trouble with the thinners attacking the styrene too deeply, instead of just the surface layer, this would cause a much longer drying and fixing time.

For prep, just flat the surface of the styrene down to a matt finish, this will give a key for the contact adhesive to bond on to.

I hope this helps in your endeavours.

John

[Red_Hamish]

Thanks to John & John,    Bluebird the coaster looks  great, what lovely detail  Bogstandard an excellent guide to how to achive the brilliant results seen above.

Keep up the good works chaps you're both an inspiration to us all.

cheers

Jim