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Author Topic: Pensions  (Read 2879 times)

Colin Bishop

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Pensions
« on: February 05, 2008, 02:01:09 pm »

Quote
My friend (a pensioner) is currently awaiting sentencing for refusing to pay the portion of council tax that is set aside for the pensions of council workers. His argument is that none of them paid towards his pension.

As a council pensioner myself, no I didn't pay for his pension, but I certainly paid for mine - 6% all my working life. And yes, by today's standards it is a good one but everybody forgets the years when the wage increases in the private sector were up to double those of public employees. The reason that a lot of good private pension schemes have been withdrawn is because the bosses were able to use the excuses of the drop in the stock market and Gordon Brown's pension raid. They didn't have to close them down, they chose to.

This whole area is far more complex that people realise, unfortunately too many believe what they read in the Daily Mail.


Topic split from:         ->  Physical Punishment? 

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Welsh_Druid

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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2008, 02:20:36 pm »

My friend (a pensioner) is currently awaiting sentencing for refusing to pay the portion of council tax that is set aside for the pensions of council workers. His argument is that none of them paid towards his pension.

I could go on.
Bob

Rather a simplistic argument that. Is he talking about his state pension or his works pension ?  If its his works pension then his employer paid towards his pension out of the company profits. Where did the company profits come from ? From whoever purchased the goods or services that he was involved in providing so MANY OTHER people contributed to his pension - maybe even some of the Council workers !

If its his state pension - well thats a whole different argument. People will say that they have contributed for years so have paid for their pension - but state pensions nowadays are paid out of general taxation - not what THEY have paid in during years gone by . In other words all the current taxpayers are paying for your state pension.

What bugs me in this case is that if people go to live abroad to live and do not pay UK taxes they still expect to receive the UK state pension out of OUR taxes ! ( Sorry Roger - not getting at you -but its a fact )

Don B
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gingyer

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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2008, 04:16:05 pm »

I remember the idiot who tried to steal from my mum and dad's
house when I was a boy it was about 5 in the evening during the summer,
my dad got him, ripped off his jumper and t shirt and with one hand on the
guy throat and the other an his belt proceded to rub this guy's back up and
down the hedge. took 4 years for the hedge to grow back properly.
my dad was cautioned by the police. when it went to court the sherrif officer
when told bust out laughing and said it was a warning to the guy
not to try that house again 
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BobF

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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2008, 04:47:19 pm »

The example I gave was not in defence or other wise of my friend. (His case has been televised)
It was  about how different crimes are dealt with. It appears the more anti social they are the less the punishment.Yobs get away with so much with just a gentle telling off.
Bob
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Colin Bishop

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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2008, 04:56:22 pm »

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It was  about how different crimes are dealt with. It appears the more anti social they are the less the punishment.Yobs get away with so much with just a gentle telling off.

I think this is just a another case of going for the easy target who isn't going to fight back, run away or run rings round the prosecution. Much easier on the target statistics too. The problem seems to me to be that the police are prioritising the wrong sort of crime because it is easier for them.
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Roger in France

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Pensions
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2008, 05:06:01 pm »

I find some of these points of view rather simplistic, lacking in breadth of view and very self serving.

Allow me to set the record straight in as far as my personal circumstances have been mentioned by another in this Forum.

I have a local government pension and, after Saturday, a State Pension. While working I paid a high rate of tax on all I earned because it is public knowledge what I earned. I was prohibited from taking other employment or earnings. When I gave a lecture, wrote an article or was paid any kind of fee all of it had to be declared and paid over to my employer. I was not allowed any form of gift, no matter how paltry.

One year of my employment all senior public officers like me had no annual increment by Government decree, this has a knock on effect on my pension.

I had no form of privilege whatsoever, unlike my neighbours and friends in the private sector who enjoyed larger annual increases than me, ran their and their wife's car on the firm, had bonuses and Christmas gifts. Some even had holidays paid for.

In common with all public servants living abroad, my income must be taxed in the UK at a higher rate than I would otherwise pay within the French system.

All my working life as a public servant I was in close contact with the private sector, I was astonished and disgusted by much of what I saw going on. Some of the "extras" of which I was aware were obscene. I accept that was at a senior level in the private sector and did not, I am confident, filter down to everyone.

I worked very hard, I worked excessive hours and I ended up with a double heart bypass caused by stress and fatigue. Much of the latter being caused by being asked to take over and sort out a government department in which vast fraud had been committed in conjunction with the private sector, it included suicide and long prison sentences after I had spent three years of my life "sorting it out".

I was head hunted by a major public company in the UK but declined because I was imbued with the public service ethic and so, at my own choice, did what I wanted. I never once asked for a pay rise but achieved them by winning promotion in open competition or as a result of higher qualifications.

There were many like me but, of course, not all.

So, please do not make general, sweeping remarks about all public servants from your inadequate knowledge and baseless prejudice. But if you must, do not include or refer to me (even with an apology!).

A very annoyed and saddened,

Roger in France.
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White Ensign

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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2008, 05:13:38 pm »

Friend of mine had a small cabin in his garden. Garden about 700 yards away from next village. Nothing precious inside, some garden-tools, a old sofa, little radio, sixpack, that`s it. After the first time they had broken in he found, that they must have had a GB inside as he found 6 or 7 condoms on the floor. Police went up, took them as evidences and that`s it. After the fifth time (always has to repair the door, which sums up after a while) he decided to make his cabin sharp. He installed one of the anti-bird-pistols, which are meant for wineyards and filled her up with salt. Installed in a hight behind the door, where she may hit bodyparts where you use to sit on. Parallel he placed a warning on the front-door, that there is a sharp protection-system inside which may lead to heavy injuries.
One fine day police came up and took him under arrest for tried manslaughter.
A lad broke in his cabin and got the whole salt blown in his a*%&?e. He was injured, but not enough to grab his mobile and call police. They picked him up, brought him to hospital.
End of the story: My friend was ordered from a court, to pay compensation for personal suffering, has know three months of jail on parole. The thief, which had been broken in before (by DNA they had found out, that he was one of the lads celebrating that GB in there) can not be arrested as he is covered by his not finally decisioned application for asylum. This had happened about 2 years ago and this lad is still running around town, still waiting for a solution on his application.
My friend said, the next time he will grab him personally out of the dark bushes.
But since that salt-shot his cabin was left in peace.....
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Colin Bishop

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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2008, 05:21:14 pm »

Well said Roger! I was a senior middle manager in Local Government and during the latter part of my career was closely involved with contracting out many of our services to the private sector. I can't say I was very impressed either with much of what I saw although it wasn't all bad. However, our transferred staff were not on the whole treated well and just bought and sold as the contract changed hands every few years so loyalty went out of the window. I think it is fair to say that the vast majority of the people I worked with over the years had a public service ethos. OK. so they may sometimes have been inefficient is some respects but once the work was outsourced the bottom line became money and the private sector "partners" would pull every trick in the book to get away with providing as little as they could within the terms of their contracts. They always put their shareholders first which was of course their duty!
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Bryan Young

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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2008, 06:39:48 pm »

During my RFA years we were regularly inflicted with "naughty boys". Generally signed on as deck-boys. Without exception these kids arrived with (street) attitude. Generally within 6 weeks or so; with a little prodding by the Bosun and his accolytes, there would be a miraculous transformation in attitude. No "pub" to go to, no telly to watch; just a bunch of guys who would have to rely on the "recaltrint" when required. I would say (hand on heart) that 70%+ responded and at the end of a deployment they were a new person. Most of them had never been subjected to a discilplined environment...and reacted well to it. I think there is a case for some sort of National Service but not a one that is led by Government dictat or the "Officer" class. Education by example and a "gentle nudge" works better.....and remove said person from his/her local environment.
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Welsh_Druid

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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2008, 07:15:04 pm »

Roger

I am not sure which posting you are referring to - but if it was mine you will note that I specifically said  " Sorry Roger - I am not getting at you "  and did not in any way refer to your personal circumstances. (I included that comment because  we all know you live in France) But if this offended you I am sorry.

You must agree though that STATE pensions paid to a UK citizen in another country are not taxed in the UK.

Also if you re-read my posting you will see that there is no reference whatsoever, general, sweeping or otherwise, to any public servants.

If it was my posting which annoyed and saddened you because of your previous employment this is rather ironic. I too was a Local Government Officer at first tier level and would agree emphatically with all the points you made in your posting. Fortunately I retained good health and whilst I too was head-hunted, it was by another semi-government agency !!

Don B.
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Colin H

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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2008, 10:59:47 pm »

Roger,

First let me say I have no doubt what you say about your own circumstances is true, but I must raise a few points with you.

You ask us not to make `general sweeping remarks about public servants` as they offend. This I can understand but if you read your post you are guilty of exactly the same thing by making sweeping and general statements about the private sector.

I have worked in the private sector for some 46 years man and boy most of it in the building trade. Now if you want to talk `back handers` corruption etc I am an expert. Remember Poulson (may have spelt that wrong).

For several years I was a contracts manager for the largest domestic central heating company in the UK. 95% of my work was done for local authorities, and government agencies (military married quarters) etc. Contracts valued at between 100K & 1.3 million. Please DO NOT ask me to believe that the public servants involved were `lily white` because they were not.

From meals out to weekends away with the wife/girlfriend, from TVs at Christmas to tickets for holidays abroad I have seen it all with my own eyes.

What must be obvious to all is that there are good and bad workers on both sides just as there is a criminal element on both sides.

You did not accept bribes but I can assure you that if you worked at the public/private sector interface some of your fellow workers did. Its just that the bad boys knew you were clean and therefore kept everything well away from you.

Colin H.
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farrow

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Pensions
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2008, 09:22:30 am »

I do not know what government pensions have to do with Physical Punishment, but I do believe that all the wailing over the pensions is very much of the "grass always looks greener over the otherside of the fence". When I started in Government service our wages were always based on the lower quartellle of nation wage negotiations, to allow for pension and employment security, except of course MP's. Pension bashing is usually instigated by the Government as now when they want to reduce pay agreements and reduce pensions, which they will in about 2013 when it will go down in value by about 50% and then every thing will be renationalised. After all it is the new more efficient private contractors who are losing confidential CD,s and mail also the rail service is getting worse.
But to Physical punishment, yes parents should use more corporal punishment and so should schools when the younger generation get out of hand, it did me no harm except taught me very early that society has rules and when you break them you are punished. So I learnt at an early stage to respect other people and be tolerant of their views.
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Peter Fitness

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Re: Pensions
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2008, 10:12:54 pm »

I think there is a case for some sort of National Service but not a one that is led by Government dictat or the "Officer" class. Education by example and a "gentle nudge" works better.....and remove said person from his/her local environment.
Excellent point Bryan.  O0  It may be slightly off topic, but the right kind of National Service is a great idea to put some of the "bludgers" to useful work. This very idea has been suggested by many here in Australia, but as usual, the "do-gooders" and the civil liberties groups get very hostile about it. We have a large group of young people who are laughingly (with gritted teeth) referred to as the Prime Minister's Surfing Team, because they claim unemployment benefits (the dole), and spend much of their time surfing. Placing them into military service for an extended period would (hopefully) teach them discipline, and give them an acceptable work ethic.
Peter.
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Pensions
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2008, 01:14:26 pm »

When my lot were disestablished, it was found that our previous employer, HM Govt, had allowed an enormous shortfall in the pension fund.  We were "allowed" to just over double our contributions for a few years to make up the shortfall.  The employer contributions did not increase, but the employer was allowed periodical "contribution holidays" as and when it was deemed a good idea.
A far right wing publican friend at the time told me how well off I was with my pension arrangement.  Then I showed him a payslip and asked what he would feel about paying the same percentage of his income.  He never raised the subject again.
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Re: Pensions
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2008, 06:06:03 pm »

I wonder how many of the people on here who are advocating national service did national service themselves if they had , they may have very different views and appart from that what the h..l has it to do with pensions we ask  ::)
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Peter Fitness

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Re: Pensions
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2008, 11:44:17 pm »

Youngat65, I missed out on National Service by a whisker in the late 50s. I had been called up, passed my medical, and was waiting to be told when to go to Sydney, when the government of the day dropped the whole scheme. They must have heard I was coming  {-) {-). However, some of the strongest advocates for the return of National Service in Australia, are those who themselves did do it.
You are right though, it has absolutely nothing to do with pensions, it just flowed on from a comment by Bryan Young.
Peter.
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MTB

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Re: Pensions
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2008, 07:01:17 pm »

some sgreeement from me colin but it's not too hard to work out isit . figure how much you want as a pension when you retirethen figure as best you can what interest rates might be then and plan to save up to the amount you need to pay out the amountyou need in interest ,to do that stop all the smoking and drinking and fancy hollidays and put the money in your kitty  plus any bonuses you might get.you have 2 choices spend iton1 luxuries now or 2have the kind of retirement you worked for all your life.for.. i ddid and whilst it's not perfect i am going to be fairly happy in my new home in a couple of months when the weather gets warmer,and i'm off fishing with the wife any day i want to off to work lads the more tax and national insuranceyou pay the better i like itoh just to say that i was self employrd almosy all of my life and i paid 40 out of 44 years worth of stamps anyway and sometimes i paid so much national insurance to the gov' for my employees that the monthly check could hve bought me a new car and that was all my money i put in for my employees pension not for me nor tax deductable.. frightening ennit. so i won't be rich but hopfully i won'y be on the bread line no matter how hard gordon brown tried to put me there thats another reason iv'e never voted labour.they always shaft the working man.
and i don't feel bad about any of the benefits i'm getting at the moment because i bloody well paid for them even when i didn't have to. now i can have my little car at the gov's expensehaha.sorry lads been a long time since i've had the oppotunity to stick my fingers up at someone even if it is this crappy gov.best wishes.mtb. roy
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Bryan Young

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Re: Pensions
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2008, 07:36:30 pm »

I wonder how many of the people on here who are advocating national service did national service themselves if they had , they may have very different views and appart from that what the h..l has it to do with pensions we ask  ::)
I was NOT advocating National Service! The RFA is a civilian organisation and is manned by civilians. BUT they do have a work ethic and the senior POs make sure that new entrants obey those. I guess it (the RFA) is a bit of a conundrum nowadays, but it works, and works well.
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Re: Pensions
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2008, 10:42:44 pm »

Still doesn't.t answer the question as to how many people who are talking about National Service on here actually have done it . even with my limited old age eyesight  I could see that you Mr young wasn't talking about national service but others were. I saw chaps come into National service real hard cases  having been in all sorts of trouble got in the right crowd and came out good citizens I also saw it the other way where normal good chaps came in and went out villains.
 So the point I was making was Don't advocate it unless you have done it. I also couldn't see what it had to do with pensions which is what the thread was about
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MTB

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Re: Pensions
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2008, 11:00:30 pm »


[/quote]
I was NOT advocating National Service!.
[/quote]
i am .......................................................any one who is leaving scool at 15 should either have a job to gofirstto  ,mustto take responsibility for ALLthier actions from then on or do 5years in the forces where they can finish thier education to help thier country and learn to grow up into a reponsible adult instead of expecting everyone else to put up with thier bad behavior and pay for it . i had a wonderful time in the army and wish i had not got married before i went in which was the reason i came out, son pining for his dad. enjoyed the mountains in Aden now called yemen the jungle in Borneo, but didn't like the freezing cold in norway where i froze my buns off sitting in an amoured car  lso lost seversal days pay after overturning a feret in the desert and ripped the gun turret off. nearly killed us but what a larf' almost got court martialled for that. great place to make a man of you shame they don't look after our troops so well today. disgusting polotitians. i vote the next time they wanta fight they go first in the front line and see how it feels. i can seetony being the big i am then or gordon running to the nearest forces airfield gun in handbaying for blood
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JayDee

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Re: Pensions
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2008, 11:09:00 pm »

Hello,
OFF TOPIC  - - - - I was called up for National Service on a Thursday, the following Thursday they ended it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
John. >:(   >:(  >:(
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w3bby

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Re: Pensions
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2008, 12:40:19 am »

What bugs me in this case is that if people go to live abroad to live and do not pay UK taxes they still expect to receive the UK state pension out of OUR taxes !

So I served my country for a number of years and have a minimal pension due to me when I reach 65 and according to you I shouldn't get it because I now live abroad, it's paid for in time, money and hard work, also have some other remnants due to a couple of years as a civvy in the UK. I have other arrangements to give me some comfort in my retirement but D****** if I'll leave that money untouched.

MTB

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Re: Pensions
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2008, 05:07:00 am »

LIKE IT OR NOT YOU HAVE TO PAY YOUR TAXESIF EVERYONE DID AS THEY PLEASED WE'D BE IN A RIGHT OLD MESS WITH STARVING PENSIONERS EVERY WHERE. SO WHAT'S DIFFERENT. stop paying bloody pootitions too much money and allowing them to fleece us by giving handouts to thier families from expensesand we might start getting somewhere. also stop giving money to the lazy sods who won't work 6 weeks on the dole then starve.if you don't work thts how it used to be, can't see anything wrong with that.other countries don't put up with it so why do we that's why the workshy emigrate here.better go to bed getting on me soap box again. blimey i would have made a tory councillor wouldn't i. long live maggy . thats upset a few i'll bet.ha ha.god bless mtb.roy
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regiment

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Re: Pensions
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2008, 03:19:12 pm »

i receive a raf pension after 22 yrs a state pension  free tv licence bus pass 200 heating  allowence  help with rent and poll tax  but have to pay for teeth care and glasses im happy regards gordon
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Tom Eccles

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Re: Pensions
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2008, 07:48:51 pm »

Before this topic degenerates into a "Saturday Night Special" I would like to add my little bit.

Pension? You earned it, you deserve it, Anywhere in the world you happen to live. Bye the way, I also think that pensions should be paid free of tax.

National Service? I served 13 years in the British Army and I truly resent any suggestions that the armed forces should be regarded as a dumping ground for the failed children of inadequate parents
(and yes I DID read all the relevent postings)

Punishment? If some little 'Erbert was to cause injury to my family then he had better be more determined than me!

Cheers
Clegg
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