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[Bunkerbarge]

Interesting though isn't it?  

If the crane uses the ships supply how does the crane slew whilst remaining connected?  A pipe must run up the middle and have some sort of swivel fitting at the top but a bit limited when you start to think of higher pressures.  You can't have steam pipes swivelling around with 10 bar behind it!!

Bryan, not having access to my CV Waine books I wonder if any of them have any steam crane details in them?  Anyone got copies to hand, maybe the "Steam Coasters and Short Sea Traders" would be worth a look.  What about industrial museums such as Beamish, I suspect some of them would have steam cranes around.

[Colin Bishop]

The crane wouldn't necessarily have to be able to slew 360 degrees so a flexible connection would do the job. I wondered about the Waine book as well, bit expensive to buy these days though.

[Colin Bishop]

Three irrelevant posts deleted. This is an interesting thread - don't spoil it folks!

Colin

[DickyD]

Might I suggest you delete my reply no.67 as well, seeing as BY thinks its a joke Colin

[Colin Bishop]

No Richard, there's some useful info there I think. I just didn't feel that  the personal comments enhanced the topic.

[Bryan Young]

Interesting though isn't it?  

If the crane uses the ships supply how does the crane slew whilst remaining connected?  A pipe must run up the middle and have some sort of swivel fitting at the top but a bit limited when you start to think of higher pressures.  You can't have steam pipes swivelling around with 10 bar behind it!!

Bryan, not having access to my CV Waine books I wonder if any of them have any steam crane details in them?  Anyone got copies to hand, maybe the "Steam Coasters and Short Sea Traders" would be worth a look.  What about industrial museums such as Beamish, I suspect some of them would have steam cranes around.

Living up here I know Beamish fairly well. The last time I was there I was told that most of the "maritime" collection was still held in a warehouse in Hebburn. Nice thought but no go as yet.

[Bryan Young]

The crane wouldn't necessarily have to be able to slew 360 degrees so a flexible connection would do the job. I wondered about the Waine book as well, bit expensive to buy these days though.

I reckon 180 degrees would do the job. I have no idea what pressure it would work at but those Victorians were pretty ingenious with many things so I don't think a bit of steam would put them off much!

[Colin Bishop]

I reckon 180 degrees would do the job.

I think the location of the cranes on Lairdscastle would confirm that Bryan. Off the quayside and into the hold. If they could manage 180 degrees than a bit more for luck is unlikely to have been a problem. These were the people who designed the atmospheric railway using a leather seal! http://mikes.railhistory.railfan.net/r027.html

[Bluebird v2]

Hi all

Just to try and explain to Colin Bishop and Bunkerbarge and others, the principles of a high pressure rotary coupling, which, has been around from day blonk.

This setup is very much on the same principle as a gland on a steam valve. The only difference being is the spindle in the valve is actually a machined pipe, which is represented by A in the drawing below.  This can rotate 360 degrees and the graphite packing is quite capable of taking higher pressures than 10 bar (1 bar = 14.6 psi approx (if my memory serves me correctly).  This type of application of swivelling joints has been used, and is used, in areas that use super-heated steam as well.

I do suspect that the main boilers on the General Havelock would have operated in the region of 80 psi and something like 120 psi.  She would have carried what is known as 'Donkey Boilers' smaller boilers to supply steam for deck machinery, therefore avoiding draining too much steam from the main boilers.

Hope this is of some help.

Aye
John E
Bluebird

[DickyD]

Using my local knowledge you will I believe find a number of steam cranes being renovated at Tanfield Railway, although not on their web site you could try contacting them.   

http://tanfield-railway.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

Also if you look on the folowing web site there is a hazy video of ships unloading in Newcastle using steam cranes [the long video]

http://www.ringtonscentenary.co.uk/

 :angel:

[Bunkerbarge]

The swivel connection is interesting as it is basically very similar to the sootblowing steam lance seal arrangements used nowadays. 

We do have the luxury now though of access to quite sophisticated gland packing materials, not available in the days of the Havelock, so I wasn't sure just what arrangements they had in those days and what pressures they were capable of holding.

It reminds me of my early cargo ship days climbing around the boilers, superheaters and economisers with a pot of used oil and graphite flakes, painting all the valve spindles and glands.  Graphite was actually a very good lubricant and protecting medium for steam use and I think steam valves were kept in better condition in those days than they are today.

[Bryan Young]

How about this:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/On30-Operational-Steam-Crane-superb-craftsman-kit_W0QQitemZ290132042542QQihZ019QQcategoryZ485QQcmdZViewItem

No way did I treat this as a joke! It just seemed inappropiate. It was really nice of you to spend a bit of time and effort to help. But looking at the pic you posted it is/was not really the sort of thing fitted to ships. I have also trolled Google and have come up with ziltch. I now start doing a re-run of museums. I cannot believe that this was the only ship to be so fitted! No offence meant. BY.

[Bryan Young]

Using my local knowledge you will I believe find a number of steam cranes being renovated at Tanfield Railway, although not on their web site you could try contacting them.   

http://tanfield-railway.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1

Also if you look on the folowing web site there is a hazy video of ships unloading in Newcastle using steam cranes [the long video]

http://www.ringtonscentenary.co.uk/

 :angel:

As you seem to live in Hampshire, but have local knowledge of the Tanfield Railway.....do you originate from the Tanfield area? Surely we are not long lost brothers, or went to school together! BY.

[Bryan Young]

::)

Nice one Bluebird....until I talked to "the Carpenter" I did not know that the circular bit that the wheels run around on is called a "Trod". (as in a trodden path I surmise). Interesting where odd paths can lead!.

[Bob]

I'm having a hell of a job, what's the dfference between JPG and JPEG for posting pictures?
Anyway........... Hello Bryan,
I have been having a ferret through Google and have come up with these pictures of a steam grab dredge working on one of the canals.
I can well imagine a docker wreathed in gland steam on the fore deck years ago on a crane setup like this. A bit bigger yes but looking much like this.
You may gets some ideas from them.
I had a look through WAINE's STEAM COASTERs & SHORT SEA TRADERS, all swinging derricks or union purchase no steam cranes so far as I can see.
Cheers, Bob Ferguson

[Colin Bishop]

That certainly looks similar to those i have seen on ship models except that the jib would be longer as it has to plumb the hold on one side and the quayside on the other.

[Bryan Young]

I'm having a hell of a job, what's the dfference between JPG and JPEG for posting pictures?
Anyway........... Hello Bryan,
I have been having a ferret through Google and have come up with these pictures of a steam grab dredge working on one of the canals.
I can well imagine a docker wreathed in gland steam on the fore deck years ago on a crane setup like this. A bit bigger yes but looking much like this.
You may gets some ideas from them.
I had a look through WAINE's STEAM COASTERs & SHORT SEA TRADERS, all swinging derricks or union purchase no steam cranes so far as I can see.
Cheers, Bob Ferguson

Hi. Nice to hear from you again...how is the LSL? Unfortunately your pics show "self-contained" units. As Colin(Bishop) said, this type gets its steam from the ships supply and not from its own boiler. I still think that it is basically a normal steam cargo winch (of its era) but turned on to its back! Ta for the effort though. Cheers. BY.

[Bob]

Goodmorning Bryan,
Work on the LSL has slowed at present, busy building a couple of toolboxes for my son and son-in-law for Xmas, and getting ready for our annual GREAT LITTLE TRAIN SHOW at end of October. The club pond has had its winter clean out (bloody ducks could shoot the lot of them) and us boaties are snapping at the bit for the summer season to start. Will be back to it again before long.
In this canal dredger the steam is supplied from a boiler at the other end of the punt and delivered to the dredge crane via the centre pivot, allowing 360 rotation..
In the middle picture you can see the platform that the crane is mounted on, where the operater stands, the whole lot rotating.  Note the brace rods from the top of the winch frame to the back edge of the platform and the boom heel pins.
Cheers, Bob

[Colin Bishop]

Looking good Bryan. Can I ask which brand/type of white paint you have been using? Also is it matt, gloss or satin?

[Bryan Young]

Looking good Bryan. Can I ask which brand/type of white paint you have been using? Also is it matt, gloss or satin?

Evening, Colin. Depends which bit you are talking about. If it is the rails, then it is a coat of Humbrol Matt followed by a coat of satin. If it is the larger aluminium bits ( only a couple of which I have shown) then I like Halfords radiator paint...primer followed by the top coat (aerosols). The black is generally Humbrol "Satin Coal Black". Lovely deep black. Helpful? Cheers. BY.

[Colin Bishop]

Yes, thanks Bryan, very much as I would do.

[Bunkerbarge]

Lovely job Bryan, the woodwork looks beautifull and the taff rails are superb.

[Bryan Young]

Lovely job Bryan, the woodwork looks beautifull and the taff rails are superb.

Actually, the pictures are a load of crud and I feel quite embarassed about them. In the "old days" of film photography I could aim the flash to give a reflected and thus softer light. Can't do that now without spending mega-bucks. I think I shall have to go the old traditional way and put various layers of toilet paper over the flash unit to soften it a bit. 2 steps forward and 1 step back it seems!

[anmo]

Actually, the pictures are a load of crud and I feel quite embarassed about them. In the "old days" of film photography I could aim the flash to give a reflected and thus softer light. Can't do that now without spending mega-bucks. I think I shall have to go the old traditional way and put various layers of toilet paper over the flash unit to soften it a bit. 2 steps forward and 1 step back it seems!

And you aren't the only one. I've been a photographer, sometimes semi-professional, all my life, and I thought that when I finally went digital, I'd find the changeover fairly easy, especially since almost all my film work was with transparencies where the exposure tolerance is virtually zero. Wrong, wrong, wrong, it's like starting all over again, there's so much new stuff to learn, white balance for example. I'm doing fairly well with digital photography now, but it hasn't been easy, and I was almost back to being a beginner at first, 'acceptable pics' are easy, but 'good pics' of difficult subjects, especially in bad light, certainly aren't. The good thing about digital though, is that you can take lots and lots of pics, see instant results, and progress through learning from your mistakes.

[Bryan Young]

Actually, the pictures are a load of crud and I feel quite embarassed about them. In the "old days" of film photography I could aim the flash to give a reflected and thus softer light. Can't do that now without spending mega-bucks. I think I shall have to go the old traditional way and put various layers of toilet paper over the flash unit to soften it a bit. 2 steps forward and 1 step back it seems!

And you aren't the only one. I've been a photographer, sometimes semi-professional, all my life, and I thought that when I finally went digital, I'd find the changeover fairly easy, especially since almost all my film work was with transparencies where the exposure tolerance is virtually zero. Wrong, wrong, wrong, it's like starting all over again, there's so much new stuff to learn, white balance for example. I'm doing fairly well with digital photography now, but it hasn't been easy, and I was almost back to being a beginner at first, 'acceptable pics' are easy, but 'good pics' of difficult subjects, especially in bad light, certainly aren't. The good thing about digital though, is that you can take lots and lots of pics, see instant results, and progress through learning from your mistakes.

Perhaps you can suggest a better "mute" than toilet paper? Cheers. BY.