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Author Topic: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build  (Read 113467 times)

Martin13

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My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« on: March 28, 2008, 06:14:17 am »

Due to a particular members constant prodding to post my build, I have finally got the nerve to post - Well here goes.

I have been at it for about 6 months with various degrees of success and still have not finished the hull. But before I get into the build, a little background first.

As with many, in my younger days loved to build plastic kits of all sorts with large scale trucks becoming a favourite. When I started my apprenticeship, my supervisor got me interested in model boats of which I built several but my favourite was a RAAF Crash Tender. Back then boats were made of marine ply and/or balsa powered by IC motors and had heaps of fun building and operating the models. As time went on, model building became less frequent due to work demands and other interests.

Times have now changed and I have slowed down a lot since then and building processes have changed with new products/material available.Living in the country, property owners are reluctant for modelers to operate IC boats on there ponds for fear of water contamination (fuel) and noise, so have now become familiar with electric motors and such. Back in my early boating days, if plastic/fibreglass was mentioned, everybody looked at you strangely and asked were you joking - today it's the norm - so another new thing to learn.

I intend to post this build a little different from other builds as I will be posting pic's including my stuff-ups, IE what I intended/wanted to do but the results errr......  >:(

The purpose is to show Newbies that errors are made and some big ones too but not to get discouraged and give it a go. As we say Down Under "Sh*t Happens"

Also for the more experienced modeler, I want your comment, I NEED your comment. Give me suggestions on maybe another way to have approached the task at hand. There are areas that I have given little to no thought about and will need the knowledge of the many years of experience on this forum...

Special thanks to Steve/Ripslider for sending me 3 word documents complete with screen prints on how to resize an image, email and post pic's on forum ( a real step by step dummies guide)

So as stated earlier - here goes


Martin Down Under
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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2008, 06:45:26 am »

Hi Martin

Excellent O0 . I really look forward to seeing this. How big will she be? I am guessing pretty big. :o

And a big thanks to Steve/Ripslider for going the extra mile for another member. O0


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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2008, 08:04:18 am »

Damm.....just spent 30 minutes to write more text and add Pic's.....then my Internet connection dropped out.

Think I best to write and save in a Word Doc, then cut and paste

Dammm >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(

Martin doon under
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2008, 09:26:39 am »


In my early days of model boats, I was given a set of Model Maker plans drawn by Ken Hards of HMS Brave Borderer.( a hard chine planning hull) I then had the plans increased  to a scale of 1:16 approx length 72”, Beam 18” ( 1800mm x 450mm) as I thought that one day I would like to build this boat.

The plans show little to no detail of how to construct - very basic drawings.
Now times have changed and decided it was time to get back into model boats and Brave Borderer was going to be my first build after along time in retirement (modeling that is).

Special Note: At this point of time, I was not aware of the Model Mayhem Forum.

So here goes – The plans show the bulkheads/formers spacing at 12” to 15 “ apart, this is far too wide as I intend to skin with 1.5mm marine grade 3 ply, intermediate formers will need to be added. After many headaches and lots of cursing, I finally made a set of formers of 8mm plywood giving a new spacing of 6” to 8” (150mm to 200mm) much better.

This type of hull has an internal keel and was also made up of 8mm plywood. I also used two strips of softwood as doublers as strength for the centre prop shaft and these ran from the stern till about 2/3 along the hull. At that time, I thought that the doublers were sufficient but now believe them to be an overkill for the size of material used

I do not have pics of the build process as the hull is basically completed, so I have taken pic’s as it stands now.

Still having Internet problems - will try and post pics seperately

Martin doon under

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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2008, 11:27:45 am »

Hopefully a pic appears
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2008, 11:31:58 am »

and one more !


martin doon under
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Shipmate60

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2008, 11:44:09 am »

Martin,
That is one big beast, how do you intend to power her?

Bob
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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2008, 12:02:49 pm »

Hi   NO Bob that is the babe  ::) ::)


aye
john

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boatmadman

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2008, 05:00:19 pm »

Hi,

I built a Borderer for my first attempt at scratch build! I learnt a lot the hard way - there was no mayhem back then!

Ian
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2008, 08:55:42 pm »

Hi,

I built a Borderer for my first attempt at scratch build! I learnt a lot the hard way - there was no mayhem back then!

Ian

Great quote Ian, that's what has happened here - learning the hard way. Try to build a boat with no assistance and hope it turns out okay.

In this instance, it was all trial and error. As I continue with this build thread, you will see the fun and games I had with the hull - but I did enjoy doing it.

Bob,
At this stage motors will be 3 x 700BB or maybe 850's although on this particular hull, I think I would require a VW starter motor to get it to plane.
More to come shortly

Martin doon under

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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2008, 10:43:01 pm »

With the formers in place on my building board keel in place along with doublers its now time to think about the chine timber and the stringer that forms/runs along at deck level.

Apologies, I am not familiar with the correct terminology for these timbers – as I refer to them as the bits of wood that run the full length of the hull that I am eventually going to stick the covering material to. ???

First up the chine timber-the piece of wood that forms between the side of hull and bottom. This is going to be tricky. If you are familiar with the Brave Borderer/Perkasa hull, you can picture this in your mind. The timber runs fairly straight for 2/3 thirds of the length of the hull then has to be bent/curved to meet at the bow. Also to add a challenge, the chine will need to be bent downwards towards the deck at the bow.

First Attempt.
I cut a piece of 19mm square softwood to the correct length and cut slots close together into the timber to allow me to bend the material to obtain the curve I required-these slots can be seen on the next pic.
Well, there was no way on earth that the material was going to bend that far – scrap that idea.

Second Attempt.
I traced out the chine line from the plan and transferred this to a plank of 19mm softwood but only the curved area as the plank was not wide enough and then cut it out on my bandsaw. I placed this timber in position with a straight length of 19mm square softwood and allowed for a 4” or 100mm overlap. At this point I proceeded to make a join by diagonally joining the two timbers and glueing. The second Photo shows this join as a long pencil mark on the chine. This method is used a lot in model gliders and makes for a very strong joint

I now have the correct curvature for the chine to meet on the centre line at the bow. At this point I then slotted the material as previous in order to bend the chine stringer towards the deck-this attempt actually worked so I used the same method to make the deck stringer as the photo shows. The forward most area of the bow was built up from block balsa

forgot one other thing, you can see from the pic that I had a problem with one of the intermediate formers and had to add extra material-another stuff-up >>:-(

Martin doon under
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IainM

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2008, 12:14:23 am »

Hi Martin,
I'm really very interested in seeing how you get on with this one!!  In particular how much power you end up having to provide.  Based on my 30" one that consumes around 45 watts to get on the plane and using the scale cubed rule, I guess you'll need around 400 watts total power from your three motors.  I'm not convinced about this rule of thumb so hopefully your experience can help.

Fascinating ........ and very well done.  I'm learning as you go along, so please keep up the posting  :)

Thanks
Iain

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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2008, 01:12:59 am »

Hi Martin,
I'm really very interested in seeing how you get on with this one!!  In particular how much power you end up having to provide.  Based on my 30" one that consumes around 45 watts to get on the plane and using the scale cubed rule, I guess you'll need around 400 watts total power from your three motors.  I'm not convinced about this rule of thumb so hopefully your experience can help.

Fascinating ........ and very well done.  I'm learning as you go along, so please keep up the posting  :)

Thanks
Iain

Good to hear from you Iain.....please keep watching this space as I'm sure you will have a laugh or too.

The early parts of this build give a good indication of what NOT to do as you will see in the next few posts.....But remember, even though the hull did not turn out how I intended, I did learn a lot about model construction and had a lot of fun and laughs along the way, which in my mind is the most important part........

Martin doon under
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2008, 01:20:47 am »

With chine and deck stringers in place and all glued together it was time to lay the 1.5mm plywood skin.
This was going to be achieved with the use of 4 panels starting from the bottom of the hull.

Prior to laying and fitting the plywood skin, I got a little ahead of myself and decided to file/sand the balsa blocks to make the bow area of the correct shape and sand in the chine line as a guide when laying the skin.
It was a good idea initially, but I went too far and sanded down level with the formers not allowing for the thickness of the skinning material... Ho Hum, something else I would have to fix later….

It soon became evident that I was not going to be able to lay the plywood skin all the way around to the balsa section at the bow as I was unable to bend the plywood to meet the curvature of the hull. I then decided to skin the bottom of the hull up till one former back from the balsa bow section and plank the rest. This worked out okay for the bottom of the hull and used small brass nails to hold the skin whilst the glue set.

Next step was to glue and nail the skin for the sides of the hull as I was able to bend the plywood right up to but not over the balsa bow without too much cursing. After the skinning glue had dried, I proceeded with cutting out strips of 1.5mm ply for planking about ½” or 12mm wide.
In order to plank the bottom of the hull, I had to add extra partial ply formers to support the planks. Planking was very fiddly as I never attempted anything like this in the past but I had a lot of fun. Due to the curvature at the bow section, I had a lot of problems trying to hold the planks in place including over the balsa bow (which I previously stuffed up) whilst the glue set-a quantity of brass nails were used.

After completing the planking I noticed that I had a number of gaps between the planks. On the inside of the hull, I used 30 minute Epoxy resin between the joins – a little messy but added extra strength to the planked area as this part of the hull will eventually be covered over. For the outside to the hull, I decided just to use carpenters wood putty or something like it.


Martin from the land of the Big Red Roo

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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2008, 03:20:50 am »


Having had some experience building model boats even being that a long time ago, I initially thought myself as an Advanced Beginner, but as you will see in the next few posts – I'm now reclassified as a Newbie.

WARNING TO ALL NEWBIES – Avoid at all costs, how I proceeded next…

Having now laid the skinning ply along with the planking, I had a number of gaps especially where the sheeting met the planks, a slight step was apparent. On checking out a model supply website here in Oz, I purchased this putty called “Milliput Putty”. On opening the box I found two sticks, one green and the other yellow and according to the instructions, break off equal amounts from both sticks and squeeze together till you have one uniform colour then apply as needed.
So I followed the instructions and placed it quite freely in the areas that needed to be built up and the gaps between the planks and let set.

BIG MISTAKE. >>:-( Forget using sand paper, this stuff set like concrete. In trying to file off the excess, the thought of getting out the 4” electric grinder crossed my mind on several occasions.
Over a number of weeks, I used a small rotary grinding tool similar to a Dremel as this was turning out to be a real nightmare. In other areas that needed filling, I used a water based carpenter’s wood putty and even that set pretty hard. Note: at this point in time, I was not aware that one should use P38 filler.

As I stated earlier, sanding was going to be a long pain in the rectum job and in sanding the hull managed to get through 1 to 2 layers of the plywood-not recommended…but life goes on


Martin the frustrated :'( :'( :'(
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2008, 04:49:01 am »


With the task at hand at trying to sand the hull and keep the correct shape (mind you-fighting a losing battle) at the hull during the day, evenings were spent on the Internet researching Brave Borderer.
After a period of time researching, I eventually came across the Model Mayhem Site and was impressed with the many models in the galleries. Later I joined in on the forum and found it a haven for information, modeling tips and very friendly/helpful people
 
With information gathered from the forum including many emails sent to the UK, I eventually managed to get hold of the Original Vospers Ltd Brave Borderer build drawings (at great cost). These plans included profile plan , top view showing superstructure layout, top view showing how the boat was built i.e., gas turbine engines, exhausts, generators, controls, radio room etc, sectional drawings at various ribs and so on. The last plan was the hull/former line drawings as per the original build.

On comparing these drawings with my model and the Model Maker plans it became very evident that my models chine line was completely wrong at and near the bow not to mention that I could not make the chine line equal on both sides of the hull. Also my hull bow comes to a sharp point where as the Original was rounded off. No matter what I tried, I could not get it right as the pics show.

Maybe, If I mounted some feathers on the rear I could then use the hull with my dartboard...Hmmm, must give this some thought.

I then printed off a few pictures of my hull and took them to a fibreglass supplier asking for help on how to fix the problem. This supplier runs courses on how to fiberglass, make moulds etc but are very popular and am now on a waiting list.
They supplied me with instructions and a heap of fiberglass stuff. Not ever having worked with fiberglass before, I thought I may put this little project on temporary hold and ask the forum for advice.

A number of you may remember a post I started “Fibreglassing a Hull” an invaluable tool, at least for me and a must for Newbies

Martin not as frustrated now  :) :) :)
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2008, 10:08:09 am »


A number of you may remember a post I started mid November 2007 “Fibreglassing a Hull” a most invaluable tool.

The information gained from this post i.e. various members telling me “what works for them”, armed me with a load of options on how to achieve a hull that I wanted.
It was quickly becoming apparent that my hull build would not fill my requirements and too heavy plus I did not have the necessary skills to carry out the fibreglass hull repair.

So, what am I going to do – easy, store it and start again, being the easiest thing to do. It was not a waste of time building it but rather a great training aid in modeling.

It’s now the Mark 1 hull and proudly lives high on a shelf for all to see. Now lets plan and start the Mk 2 version....


Martin The Wise O0
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2008, 11:16:27 am »


From the information and help gained from the “Fibreglassing a Hull” post, I had several options that I could use.
One option was to build a hull planked with 3mm balsa and fibreglass. I have seen this before on a Freemantle Class Patrol Boat and was ideal for that shape hull and I also intend to use the same method much later when I plan to build the same boat.

Second Option was to build a balsa plug, create a mould and make a hull from fibreglass. This was a smashing idea but the problems would be great. As on the Mk 1 hull, I had problems just trying to get the correct shape of the hull and had never fibreglassed before.

Third Option was to build a hull using the Double Diagonal Planking method, then fibreglass over the lot. It didn’t take too long for me to realize what ever method I used that fibreglass was always a part of the process. Oh well, looks like I am going to have to learn how to use this stuff after all.

I opted for the Double Diagonal Planking method-strong; light weight and looks like a good challenge but most importantly – fun to try out.

Now that I have an accurate set of plans and the method of skinning the hull, I set out making formers and keel once again of 8mm ply. I used ½” or 12mm square softwood doublers that traveled the full length of the internal keel so the planks may be glued to. The intermediate and deck chines were also made from ½’ or 12mm softwood.
Now that I am going to plank this hull, I needed to install intermediate stringers to help support the planks and keep the correct shape of the hull. As with the Mk 1 hull, I decided to use block balsa to make up the bow area, that is, from the very front to the first former and sand down to the correct shape.

You would think that after all the mishaps I made on the first hull, I would not make the same mistake again – WRONG…I did it again, I sanded the balsa blocks down to the former and did not allow for the thickness of the planks… >>:-(


Martin the keen modeler O0 O0

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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2008, 11:54:42 am »


Finding planking material was not easy but with a lot of hard slogging managed to find 0.6mm AAA grade marine 3 Ply. A sheet 48” or 1200mm square cost $75 Aud and I needed 2 for the job at hand (had to do a 300km there and back trip to pick up the material).
I laid out the sheets and proceeded initially using a 10mm spacer hard up against a steel straight edge and used a sharp knife to cut out the strips of which this took some time to complete. Then I started planking the hull

What do you think of the Mk 2 version so far???

Martin and I like my new hull O0 O0 O0

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DickyD

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2008, 12:59:26 pm »

John said you were doing a brilliant job and you should put the build on the forum and I have to agree with him, brilliant job and nice to see plenty of photos. O0
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2008, 07:48:56 pm »

John said you were doing a brilliant job and you should put the build on the forum and I have to agree with him, brilliant job and nice to see plenty of photos. O0

Thanks for your kind words Richard.
Yes, John's been at me for some time to post my build and I intend (now that I know how to use one) to take as many detailed photo's as possible.

Martin the excited :)
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peterd

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2008, 08:18:58 pm »

and one more !


martin doon under

Martin    O0 O0 O0 O0

Peter
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2008, 09:42:50 pm »

Hi Peter - long time no see

Here are more pic's. Planking comming along well

Martin the never ending planker
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2008, 09:50:31 pm »

And another pic.

First layer almost completed - Would you believe that is 400 planks...

Martin the planker
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2008, 12:16:26 pm »

Completed first layer of planks and filled hollows with P38 then started 2nd layer in opposite direction - now just the last few planks.
It's very noticeable now where I got carried away sanding the bow but will lay 3mm balsa down and re-shape

Martin
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