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Author Topic: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build  (Read 113427 times)

DickyD

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2008, 12:27:38 pm »

Looking good Martin. O0
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2008, 11:52:15 am »

Thanks DickyD,

Just waiting for glue to dry on last planks, then fix bow balsa where I sanded too far.

 No.1 hull keeping No.2 hull for company

Martin way doon under
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2008, 11:55:14 am »

More pic's
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bigfella

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2008, 05:06:20 am »

Martin

Looking Good. That is a lot of planking, I don't know if I could be that patient.

Regards David
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2008, 09:39:18 am »

Martin

Looking Good. That is a lot of planking, I don't know if I could be that patient.

Regards David

Thanks David

  :D 800 planks in all. The 2 sheets of 1200mm square 0.6 ply was just enough :)

After Dad passing away, I found it quite therapeutic but sometimes a pain in the rectum for a 1800mm/6 foot model
But I must admit, it does look good on the inside of the hull - outside will be fibreglassed

Martin the very patient planker :D :D
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2008, 11:52:28 am »


Planking completed, bow error corrected (where I sanded off too much)
Low spots in Hull filled and sanded with one coat of resin applied and dried followed by a light sanding.

I placed woven fibreglass over hull and decided that since I have never fibreglassed before that glass should be cut into 4 panels. 2 for the bottom of hull and 2 for each side of hull.

Martin
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John W E

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2008, 08:45:17 pm »

Food for thought Martin   one of the good sides of a Forum is ‘You meet people from all over the world’ but this does have a drawback.

When people give advice; the people giving the advice don’t know the capabilities of the person receiving the advice – and, this was the case when I was giving you advice about your hull build.

If we had known each other personally, I could have assessed/known how good of a builder you are.

This may have altered your thoughts on your build.

When we first discussed diagonal planking; and the materials to use and the procedure to use; I for all my sins have to be excused because I took you as a complete novice.   I was expecting the planking to have some unevenness and also to have a certain amount of large gaps – WRONG!!!!!   So here we go, this is for anyone else who is interested also.

First of all, think of the material that you are going to be planking with; in your case it was 1/16 planking.  This doubled up for the two skins and equates to ⅛ inch thick hull.   When we look at this and think about the strength of this actual build – you have produced a very, very strong hull – near enough ‘bullet proof’.

This is because of the makeup of the actual material you have used and also the way you have applied it.

I bet now, if you took the boat, you could literally bounce this across a concrete floor without any damage DON’T TRY THIS THOUGH  then you proceeded to coat it with another extremely strong material – woven roven or woven matting – and coated that in resin.

Now, if we can stop there and just think about why we are using the woven roven in the resin; because it is going to increase the strength even more to a hull that doesn’t really need strengthening any more.   What we should have done is, just give the hull two or three coats of epoxy resin.  Not polyester resin, but, epoxy.

This epoxy would have penetrated the first layer of your hull’s outer layer of plywood planking ONLY to the glue bond of the plywood.

Effectively it would create a good true seal from exterior environments.   This would have been all that would have been required on this type of hull.

Sorry my mate, but don’t bother trying to remove what you have already done.   Dress it up as per plan; and you are going to have a slightly heavier hull – but, immensely strong!!!! 

Now for other builds; there are many way of building hulls with many materials and a lot of these materials, plus workmanship would not stand up alone to the environment that we use them in.

Let us take for instance, a large hull built from balsa wood – which is very practical – a lot of people build this type of hull very successfully using balsa wood.    However, one of the drawbacks with this is, if the outer skin is damaged, it absorbs water pretty quickly.  Joints will begin to spring with the absorption of water through the damage – if left unattended that is.

To counteract this, what a lot of builders tend to do is give the balsa wood a coating of polyester resin and then, over the top of that, sometimes they will use car body filler to fill any discrepancies in on the hull.

Then, over the top of that, when it has been sanded they will apply either a layer of chopped strand mat and resin, sand it to a smooth finish or, tissue mat and resin.   This does two jobs;

a)   it gives an effective barrier between the exterior elements and the balsa wood and
b)   also slightly increases the strength of the hull build

If we go one stage further and add matting to the inside of the hull, which we should do, this will also protect the hull from water penetration on the inside.   It will also add a little more strength to the hull.

In actual fact, this type of hull can be classified as a true composite build – like that which is seen on some real/life sized boats – i.e. pleasure boats/sailing boats etc.

The other type of construction is when we use tougher materials; the more tough the material is, the less exterior protection we have to add – well that is in theory.  When we say protection we are referring to either an epoxy or a polyester barrier between our elements and the exterior of the hull.

The other reason we use a polyester/mat/tissue is – if we have had to do a lot of reshaping of the hull – say if we have left a lot of gaps in the planks and we have had a lot of hollows to fill in with car body filler.

When we apply a skin of epoxy or polyester laminate e.g. when I say laminate, I mean mixed with chopped matting or woven roven.   This actually bonds all the materials together in one harmonious structure.

Hope this gives you some thought Martin and everyone.

Aye
John e
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DickyD

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2008, 09:08:03 pm »

Bet that makes Martin scratchy doon under very happy John having to use the fibreglass when he didn't need to  {-) Do you think you should have told him that ? Ooops.
I was wondering why he was doing that seeing the job he made of the planking. :-\ Thought it must be me. {-) Caught you out didn't he ? O0
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John W E

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2008, 09:17:16 pm »

Dicky, hi ya

I think Martin had worked this out previously  :)  and it is one of the drawbacks of not knowing everyone's abilities, and for all I know he could have built a hull full of holes - just like mine - MTB DOES STAND FOR 'MY TINY BRAIN' YA NAR.  ;D ;D :D :D {-)  SORRY Martin doon under.

john
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DickyD

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2008, 09:20:43 pm »

As you say John, better to play safe, after all his boat is likely to be put in water at some time.
BTW have you found that destroyer yet ?
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2008, 11:56:56 pm »


                           This is all good – “GOOD CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS”
Food for thought Martin   one of the good sides of a Forum is ‘You meet people from all over the world’ but this does have a drawback.

When people give advice; the people giving the advice don’t know the capabilities of the person receiving the advice – How true and, this was the case when I was giving you advice about your hull build.

If we had known each other personally, I could have assessed/known how good of a builder you are. Must admit John, even I was surprised how well the hull turned out.

This may have altered your thoughts on your build.

When we first discussed diagonal planking; and the materials to use and the procedure to use; I for all my sins have to be excused because I took you as a complete novice. When I posted that thread re “Fibreglassing a Hull”, it was because, this is how things are done these days. The procedures for building and materials have changed over the last 30 years since I last built a hull. Having said that, I asked questions as a Novice would, hoping that I would get clear and precise instructions on the best way to proceed using todays methods and you VERY willingly provided such information with NO obligations  and am very grateful for you in doing so    I was expecting the planking to have some unevenness I do have some and also to have a certain amount of large gaps –no gaps just shear luck WRONG!!!!!   So here we go, this is for anyone else who is interested also.

First of all, think of the material that you are going to be planking with; in your case it was 1/16 planking.  This doubled up for the two skins and equates to ⅛ inch thick hull.The material I used doubled up to 1.2mm which I believe made it just over 1/16th    When we look at this and think about the strength of this actual build – you have produced a very, very strong hull – near enough ‘bullet proof’. I wouldn't go that far but strong none the less

This is because of the makeup of the actual material you have used and also the way you have applied it.

I bet now, if you took the boat, you could literally bounce this then youacross a concrete floor without any damage DON’T TRY THIS THOUGH  proceeded to coat it with another extremely strong material – woven roven or woven matting – and coated that in resin.

Now, if we can stop there and just think about why we are using the woven roven in the resin; because it is going to increase the strength even more to a hull that doesn’t really need strengthening any more.   What we should have done is, just give the hull two or three coats of epoxy resin.  Not polyester resin, but, epoxy.

This epoxy would have penetrated the first layer of your hull’s outer layer of plywood planking ONLY to the glue bond of the plywood.

Effectively it would create a good true seal from exterior environments.   This would have been all that would have been required on this type of hull.

Sorry my mate, but don’t bother trying to remove what you have already done.   Dress it up as per plan; and you are going to have a slightly heavier hull – but, immensely strong!!!! Actually the hull with the glass on it, is still lighter than the Mk 1 hull as I used to build a long time ago – SEE – your method has worked

Nothing to be sorry about John, as it was still my decision on how to proceed. When one asks for advice, it is up to that person as to whether he/she uses such information. You provided an idea and I was keen to try it out having never constructed in this method before.
So, DickyD thanks for your support but if John thinks he had upset me with those comments NO WAY. It is those type of comments I seek on this Build Thread – Good Constructive Comments.
The comments can only help me with my build and can be a guide to the Newbie along with other modelers having similar problems/mishaps.
So, having said that – Keep It Coming – I Love It.

Martin doon under

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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2008, 02:42:41 am »

Apologies to the forum – as stated earlier, I have proceeded with this build further than what is currently posted and hope today to bring it up to current status.

Fibreglassing – Before I precede, a little explanation about the choice of fibreglass. I made the decision to use 185gsm woven roven fibreglass as this was recommended by the supplier of where I got my materials and by club members stating that their will be less sanding required if I used this material over chopped strand matting. I also felt that the hull needed to be glassed over as the total thickness of planking was 1.2mm or 1/16th to 3/32”
When originally discussed with Bluebird re fibreglassing, I believe there was a misunderstanding on MY behalf as to material – I put this down to that fact we live in different countries and in some cases we call things by different names. We live and learn.

For the novice like myself, when it comes to fibreglass, I do not recommend using this type of material – you would be far better off using matting and more sanding, but at least have a better finish.

When I tried to cut out the 4 panels of glass, the damn material would not stop fraying – I had strands everywhere and found it almost impossible to have clean edges.

The two bottom panels went on with ease with roughly ½” overlap at the keel and about the same on the sides of the hull. The two side panels went on quite well with also about the same amount of overlap, but then I noticed something.

The side of hull where it meets the bottom ( chine stringer), the Fibreglass appeared to bulge out slightly ½” from the hull and regardless of my efforts, could not get it to sit down correctly. This happened on both sides of the hull from the transom till about 2/3rd along the length of the hull. The rest of the hull turned out okay with regards to no ripples or air bubbles, although the problem with strands was still evident – I had them everywhere over the hull.

After one week of pondering what to do, it was evident that the hull edges will need to be sanded

The build is now at its current status – I have just started to sand the hull where the glass bulged out.

If you look at the close up, you can see what I mean…Ho Hummm

Martin doon under


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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2008, 02:51:35 am »

more pic's - the glass over the keel is okay, light reflection - look along the edges - also note the strands everywhere

Come on you experts - please comment :) :)

Martin doon under
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tigertiger

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2008, 03:56:06 am »

Another great thing about this site, and this is part of the nature of forums, even if the advice given is not needed by the builder it helps others with less experience.

I have learned so much on this site.
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2008, 04:10:53 am »

Another great thing about this site, and this is part of the nature of forums, even if the advice given is not needed by the builder it helps others with less experience.

I have learned so much on this site.

TT
Glad to see that you are enjoying the build. The idea of this thread was to show others especially Newbies that when things go wrong, don't despair, as their are experienced builders on the forum to help you out - You Are Not Alone O0

Besides, we all stuff-up, I'm just proud of mine ;) ;) ;)
Feel free to comment anytime TT
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2008, 01:44:52 pm »

Big day today at sanding hull. I have sanded one side of hull to remove defective fibreglass and have since learned that the fibreglass material I have used was far too heavy - a much lighter material would have been more appropriate. Unfortunately, I needed to sand through the glass and actually exposed the Plywood planks - now the end grain is exposed one more time - need to seal this.

With regards to planking. In hindsight, I now feel that I would have had an even better finish of the planking if I added more intermediate stringers of say 1 inch apart. I had another look at Bluebird's Whaleback build and noticed that John had his stringers much closer together - much better idea as this will give the planks more support and less likely to get dips or hollows in the hull.

My model as I sand, have noticed that I still have some dips in the planking which will need filling with maybe a mixture of resin and talcum powder, then resanded - and I dislike sanding. >>:-(

Does this sound like the way to go ??

Martin 
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tigertiger

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2008, 02:07:27 pm »

Try and find David's Isopon P38 car body filler.

Available globally, and is designed to be sanded, so is softer than wood, unlike other car body fillers.
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andi4x4

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2008, 12:53:30 am »

There is also an "Easy Sand" version of the P38 - certainly available in the UK in a tube and I think a tub. This is somewhat easier to sand than the regular P38 and may be more suitable ? I use it quite a bit for almost andy job that requires a filler.


Superb build Martin !  Makes mine look like an Airfix kit !

looking forward to seeing some more progress !

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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2008, 07:40:11 am »

There is also an "Easy Sand" version of the P38 - certainly available in the UK in a tube and I think a tub. This is somewhat easier to sand than the regular P38 and may be more suitable ? I use it quite a bit for almost andy job that requires a filler.


Superb build Martin !  Makes mine look like an Airfix kit !

looking forward to seeing some more progress !



Thanks Andi. Glad to see your enjoying the build and hope you can pickup tips of what NOT to do.
I managed to get hold of some body filler equivalent to P38 here in Oz. The company assured me it will do the job fine as its easy to sand and designed for the Auto industry to touch up scratches and pin hole dents. Have tried it out today and working fine - I still have a lot of sanding to do. I knew their was something I didn't like about building hulls >>:-(

Listen, your model is no Airfix kit, it's the normal scale one usually builds MTB/PT's. My eyesight ain't what it used to be, so my theory is "If it's big, I can see it" O0 O0 O0

Martin doon under
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freelancer

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2008, 04:24:29 pm »

Greetings from Canada

You appear to be open to suggestions...
Here is a tip that i learned from my 40 inch ELCO. I found that despite the single motor, the model planed beautifully but when i turned too hard the model would dig in and the speed would of course drop fast, to eliminate this I glued blocks onto the transom as to limit the movement of the rudder arms to approx 30-40 degrees, now no matter how hard i turn the model has its own turning arc and much less stress...of course it is a wider turning arc but there is a price to pay for all decisions..

HTH

John
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2008, 09:20:18 am »

TIP OF THE DAY

Whilst sanding fibreglass - was hands BEFORE you go to toilet ::)

Martin itchin doon under
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Martin13

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2008, 12:29:49 pm »

Thanks Freelance for the advice, will keep that in mind.
In using P38, I have not yet mastered the skill of not putting on too much - hence even more sanding to do.
I have almost completed all sanding to the main area on the hull and successfully filled all hollow areas. The only problem I have now is that I got slightly carried away when sanding and have managed to put a radius on the chine line from the bow to about 8 inches back (see photo's).
Have been advised to build up chine line with P38 and sand to correct shape. This I will commence in the next few days...

Martin doon under
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andi4x4

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2008, 08:12:29 pm »

Looking good Martin !

Boy - do I wish I had a workshop that big  :( :( :( :(  mine is also the office and is about 6'x10' !




 :( :( :( :( :( :( :(


regards

Andi
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DickyD

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #48 on: April 19, 2008, 09:13:42 pm »

Looking good Martin !

Boy - do I wish I had a workshop that big  :( :( :( :(  mine is also the office and is about 6'x10' !




 :( :( :( :( :( :( :(


regards

Andi
Your office is a lot larger than my shed, plus you've got carpet. >>:-(
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andi4x4

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Re: My HMS Brave Borderer 1:16 Scale Build
« Reply #49 on: April 19, 2008, 09:41:58 pm »

Your office is a lot larger than my shed, plus you've got carpet. >>:-(
[/quote]

Ah - Carpet - so that'll be that coloured fluffy thing on the floor that the missus keeps moaning about then !  ;D ;D ;D


Regards

Andi
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