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[polaris]

Dear All,

About this time last year I posted a similar Post. The replies were informative and the responses numerous - all such remain within the same confidentiality - but I I can help/assist I will do so.

If anyone wishes any help/guidance any comms. all comms. will be totally private. Confidentiality is guaranteed.

Regards, Bernard

[Martin (Admin)]

You are a great and noble man Bernard.

Martin - Model Boat Mayhem

[polaris]

Dear Martin,

Thankyou for your very generous reply... indeed, one that needed some hours of thought as to how I was to reply. Over the years I have received quite a few words of thanks for things done 'on Boards' (from recipients of suggestions and Board operators), but none at such a level as you have just deemed to do.

It unnerves me that other more 'direct association' Boards have gone quiet this last few months at a time when I thought there would be more necessity, and I have a feeling that things are just simmering at the moment - we are all wondering what's in stall I suppose. However, I feel that things are not as bad as they might seem... as we all know the media will make the most out of it - therefore I take little notice of their antics.

Your Post to my Topic prompts me to enlarge for the benefit of new members and others who may not have noticed those of last year. I will do shortly.

Regards, Bernard

[Martin (Admin)]

This is another topic I have NO authority on as I' almost tea total, not of principle or anything high minded,
it's I just don't appreciate the subtiles of a fine wine, a single malt whiskey or the nuances of real ale.

I, like many other I guess, used to scoff at alcoholism, blaming it on lack of self control, but I changed my mind after
watching an episode of the American political TV drama ' West Wing'. One of the lead characters gives a long, loving
and detailed description of joy of pouring out "Johnnie Walker "Blue Label""   in to a lead cut crystal glass,  the sound that
the ice makes in the glass as it cracks and melts, the aroma of the whiskey in the air, the infusion of the first sip....

The character, a recovering alcoholic, concludes the scene by saying,
"It's such a wonderful experience.... why would anyone want it to stop?"

.... for the first time in my life I sort of understood the true problem of the alcoholic.

[polaris]

Dear Martin,

You have hit the nail on the head fair and square: and, what you describe in your last Post can actually be frightening to some. This is good, as it can be the first step in tackling the 'denial' aspect.

I am, as many know already, a recovering alcoholic of some six + years standing. It is still a fight sometimes: one does lapse occasionally, but, thanks to the realism of things one can quickly get things back on track, and the gaps between become that much longer each time. I have no qualms whatsoever in saying what I have said, as I am simply not bothered of who knows what... firstly, I am too long in the tooth to be concerned about it, and, secondly, I don't care who knows anyway!

Somehow or another I managed for many years to run businesses and companies successfully with the underlying reliance of alcohol. The frequency of intake varied of course, but it was there all the same. The 'obligatory' business lunches, dinners, and social 'meetings', covered what was a problem (& what was becoming morso), and this obviously helped to camouflage what was really going on. Coming from and being within a hard rock mining background, 'regular' drinking is quite normal, indeed, excess is not really very noticed in this field (a Topic on a mining Forum is running at the moment as it happens). It matters nought whether one is Mgt. or workforce in this field... indeed, it might even be presumed to be an historic occupational hazard. I can enlarge if pushed! (I fully acknowledge that the smelting industries, and other similarly concentrative occupations have just the same occupational difficulties. Maritime: well, I have heard all I need to know, and know that similar applies.)

You see, there are four distinct categories: the regular, the dependent, the alcoholic, and the drunk. The regular; many fit this category (whether they like to think it or not!), the dependent, much like the first but more regularly (say two pints per day - oh, this does get the attention of one or two doesn't it!), now we come to the next stage: the alcoholic: oh, how some like to despise same! BUT, if one consumes more than the last stage on a daily basis, sorry to say it is a dependency, and it would be wise to get back to the first stage asap.. Now we get firmly to the third stage - the alcoholic. This sounds nasty doesn't it, and indeed for those afflicted IT IS, and it needs attending to. The Drunk, well, this is someone who has gone so far down the line that it is virtually irrecoverable, they cannot manage a single hour of the day without alcohol, but I doubt there is anybody reading this on here who comes into this category - however... if there might be, PLEASE email me. In general there are three courses open to recovery: 1, stop (not many can do this single handidly and I do know of quite a few self help examples - though this is extremely commendable, I do NOT recommend this route. With this and all other problems relating to same please seek help and guidance, and the answer is extremely simple. SEE YOUR GP AND TELL THEM EVERTHING. As simple as that. Yes, as Martin quite correctly says, self discipline is involved, BUT, everybody is different, and we all need different 'triggers' to get things changed and back on line, and with alcohol, it is always best to tackle the problem with help.

So, you see, I have simply 'been there and done it', and I can - if wished - be the stopgap between the 'absolutely nothing' feeling, and the start to get out of things situation.

Please IM if wanted, my email adds. is on my profile. Have no fear of constant emails (I don't do that), only continuing if the sender shows they want to continue.

Kind Regards, Bernard

[Cargo]

I stopped drinking and smoking in 1998. Never was an alcoholic but it is only a small step to it.

[polaris]

Dear Jan,

Thankyou for your reply.

Good for you. You did well. I still smoke, BUT I know I must stop sooner or later, and speak with my GP on a regular basis on this. One thing at a time.

Regards, Bernard

[bobdoc]

Hi Bernard

Thanks for raising this subject at this time of year when we think of ourselves within our families, immediate and beyond.

I believe I can add a fifth group: the binge drinker (before the modern use of that word - unexplained benders of days or weeks interspersed with long periods "dry" yet who find it relatively easy to renounce alcohol a) spontaneously and b) have little insight about starting again: "it's easy, I've stopped lots of times"

As a group, these individuals are much more difficult to help: they can stop when "motivated"  - often with difficulty understanding the trigger or motivation. Thesreasons are often unclear and, as for another binge/bender even more so, especially to the individual involved.

That said, the real risk enumerated in today's society, are the chronic habitual over-drinkers for whom harm is not yet obvious .....yet.

Be honest with yourself - 2 pints a day and no "day-off" is risky to some (probably most): wine and beer is easy on the gut. And spirits - oh, so easy not to knock off a few before closing time! And what about those generous measures at home - the extra finger or so of your favourite spirit?

Cirrhosis, liver failure, oesophageal varices and, disaster, pancreatitis. Frequent diarrhoea or regular loose stool is often a warning sign.

Each of us needs to be honest with ourselves: Have I a problem? Who can I ask to help?  Say out loud: "I am worth it"

It's our own choice! If you are honest with yourself and concerned = ask someone to help

Don't leave your family in tears when talking with the right person for you can offer so much.

Bobdoc

[polaris]

Dear Bob,

I take the liberty of highlighting.

True, binge drinking is in fact an aspect solid aspect of alcolism. This fits fairly and squarly into Dependency - which in turn leads without any dount into alcolism.

Sorry to be so blunt.

Regards,  Bernard

[polaris]

Please: All. Contribute anything you consider applicable to this subject.

[polaris]

It would have helped if I had spellchecked my last!

True, binge drinking is in fact an aspect solid aspect of alcoholism. This fits fairly and squarely into Dependency - which in turn leads without any doubt into alcoholism.

Regards, Bernard.

[TCC]

what was really going on. Coming from and being within a hardback mining background, 'regular' drinking is quite normal, indeed, excess is not really very noticed in this field (a Topic on a mining Forum is running at the moment as it happens). It matters nought whether one is Mgt. or workforce in this field... indeed, it might even be presumed to be an historic occupational hazard.

Hi Bernard
I didn't think I'd see such a topic on here. I'm surprised... but in a good way that the mods allow it.

I'm going to echo your coment that for 'working class', it's seen as normal for a man to stop off at a pub after work and get 'bevied' and then go home for his tea. Indeed, I've 'worked mates' with such a man (building trade) and he could do that as he never learnt to drive. When I worked with him, I'd accompny him now & then... keep him company as I was sorta single then. In fact, when I think about him, his older brother was a near full blown aclcoholic as well... he went to work in Germany and lost a brand new transit van due to 'not turning in for work' and someone took it off hm over owed money. (I think his wife would have ben picking that tab up?)

But after work drinking was normal behavior. I can take of leave it, myself, but we all have vices in one way or another.

Anyway, I wish you well. Keep up the good fight.#

p.s. around where I live now, they are closing the pubs down. There's about 6 or 7 that are within about a mile radius of me that have boarded up windows. It's an interesting social phenomenom and it's changed the face of Britain in the 21st C.

[ivorthediver]

I think [ says he] that its great that things like this can be aired.... I like a drink and would not know which group others would allocate me but I am a very lucky person
 
1/ I had the miss fortune of seeing Some one very dear to me slide down the self denial incline and after having tried all the group therapy units in trying to help her realise what was happening and her" losing it" when it was inferred that she was an alcoholic........well I was not prepared to watch her killing herself ....so we parted after 18 years together.

2/ whilst I can enjoy what some would regard as the occasional bender ....I don't get drunk or hungover ..... despite a few attempts.......

I enjoy a drink like most but I am sensible about it and have no wish to end up like my ex partner....

[polaris]

In response, and in public, I can only say to those who have replied, how do you percieve your problem? I do not expect you to enlarge upon same in public, but if you wish to in private please feel obliged to do so. Regards, Bernard

[polaris]

TCC,

With Martins direct and personal involvement in this Topic believe me no Mods. will have any influence whatsoever.

I have no fight in the matter, just my own, it's just my health that is of concern. As to others, well, it it's up to them.

Regards, Bernard.
 

[OMK]

Please: All. Contribute anything you consider applicable to this subject.

This is not really a valid contribution - more of a request for your advice.
There is a chap called Mike who lives just spitting distance from me. He's in his late fifties by now, a clever bloke, ex Navy man, into RC planes, and an ex alcoholic. Nice bloke and all, but he's a total pain in the neck because all he talks about is how much better he is than everyone else because he's managed to kick the booze. In fact, he's such a pest that I and several others have stopped going to the field because none of us want to be near the dude. My take is that he's lying to us and himself, else why on earth does he keep on and on and on about booze? In your opinion, do you think that he really has kicked his habit?

My request is, how would you suggest telling an ex-alcoholic (in the politest way possible) to keep his big mouth shut?
He is obviously still dying for a drink, so would it be wise to buy him a bottle of his favourite tipple in order that he might leave us alone to enjoy ours?

[Weeds]

to keep his big mouth shut?

Sounds like you don't get along together. You can just stop talking to him, you know, say Hello and Good Bye, and just respons with Yes and Sure to everything he says. Pretend you don't hear him and ignore him in a polite way.

[Weeds]

Sounds like many of you think that a person can drink alcohol responsibly. It's what alcohol manufacturers want you to believe, but it's not true. If alcohol was discovered today by a pharmaceutical company as a drug, it would never be approved by the FDA because it has so many harmful side effects. So in essence, alcohol should be banned by the FDA if the same medical standards were applied.

All the best,

Jeff

[Reade Models]

a clever bloke, ex Navy man, into RC planes, and an ex alcoholic.

I think that Polaris, (who is extremely knowlegeable on this subject)  may well confirm, there is no such thing as an 'ex-alcoholic'?  If you are one, it's for life?  This is why the guys who attend Alcoholics Anonymous always refer to themselves as 'recovering'. Apparently, you never can never quite fully recover?  Believing that you have recovered is often the first step towards the next drink.

Stopping drinking is a big deal for those who do it, and not without just cause, a bit like ex-smokers who tend to become totally anti-smoking. Your ex-Navy man is probably quite proud of the fact that he's saved his own life, and with some justification?

Malc

[bigfella]

Although I don't indulge in drinking alcohol, never really liked the taste, Most of my family partake and about 20 years ago my brother used to drink non stop. His excuse was that it was the stress of his job. It got to one stage that he drove home from a night of boozing, left the car running in the street and got up 3 hours later and drove to work. He has since seen the light and now falls asleep after one glass of wine at dinner. I suppose I am unique as when I was playing in the pubs with my band at the end of the night I was the only sober one. They used to think it quite strange a musician that did not drink or smoke. Is it a sign of the times where the norm is going out and getting blind drunk, yet if you don't drink you are considered a freak. One thing I could never understand was why tie in Music with the sale of alcohol. Some clubs when advertising a big act that is coming to the venue they state that the "Band Starts at 8:30" every one packs in and the band never starts until 11:00. By that time everyone, bar me, has had a skin full. Not a good practice.

Regards David

[OMK]

You yourself also sound pretty knowledgeable on the subject. No doubt the ex-Navy man does feel proud of his achievement, ergo he should deserve a pat on the back. But do you know the really sad thing? He's a very bad ambassador for anyone who wants to quit their habit. Put it this way, I've never been much of a drinker. I like a pint as much as the next man, and that's it. I've also been known to enjoy the odd spliff or three. But my biggest vice is cigarettes. Now just for arguement's sake, let's assume I'm wanting to quit smoking. Let's say I'm at the stage where I'm ready and, above all, willing to give it a whirl. But how can I? I look at Mr. ex-Navy and what I see scares me witless. I'm not so stupid that I can't see that the man is suffering. And that is what terrifies me. I mean, what is the point of trying to quit when all you get in exchange is a life of doom and gloom?

I really don't know what goes on in those rehab/AA places, so I'm really in no position to be speaking of things which I know very little of. But, from an average Joe's perspective/call it ignorance, would it not be better for the ex-Navy man, and all those in similar situations, would it not be better to teach them about moderation, rather than having them quit their habit altogether? Like I said, he is a clever bloke, but you cannot escape the fact that he's also a pain in the bum. It's understandable WHY he's like he is, so would he be a happier bloke if if wasn't denying himself every day? Because if not, I am terrified at the thought of quitting smoking if it means I'm gonna end up being miserable all the time.
I reckon more folk would kick smoking/booze/drugs if they could live without fear of society turning on them for having the odd drink once in a while. Surely moderation has to be better than starvation?

[Circlip]

Only a slight side track but I hope helpfull to PMK.

  Laid with half a dozen wires connected to a big scope after a "slight" MI this rather attractive Sarth Afrikaan lady docteress said "OK, you can stop smoking now and have a 50% less chance of having another heart attack,      or you can carry on smoking and DIE"
    Bit of a no brainer really, from 40 to 0 in one day with NO artificial aids. I always used to say that I would give up smoking (After 45 years)when "I" wanted to, but secretly hoped no-one would put me to it. The deciding influence was that that wicked b3tch didn't give me a time limit, but that was 6 years ago and yes, there are times I could kill a cig, after Sunday lunch etc.but I won't "Just have the one" cos it WOULD go back to 40 a day.
   The secret is you've got to WANT to stop, forget patches and substitutes, and no, I'm NOT an anti-smoking pain, I have no problem with anyone else wishing to smoke like most "Converts".
    I think the same rules MUST apply to alcoholism, there's no "Just the One"
 It is worth the effort PMK

   Regards   Ian.

[Hagar]

I think the biggest difference is enjoying a drink and needing a drink.
I would go as far as saying that I do not drink, but that would be a lie. Beer in my house has a habit of going over the sell by date before I get to drink it,
The few times when I have felt that I REALLY need a drink, I go for the tea pot.
As a cure for the common cold, its great, As a social enhancer?

I to see a huge amount of double morals in alcohol and tobacco. We all know that Hash and Heroin are totally out of order, and in 99% of the world illegal. How many are aware that drinkind and smoking are responsible for thousands more deaths each year than all the illegal drugs combined?
I read that for every person that dies as a direct result of drugs, 1000 dies of tobacco or alcohol DIRECTLY, add to that figure, the passive smokers and the victims of drunk drivers.

There was that campaign aimed at drug missuse- "Just say no" maybe this should be redirected at all users of addictive substances.
I said to my doctor once that I had a dependency problem and they where all ears and sympathy. Untile they found out I was talking about tobacco.
If I was a drunk, I could go here or go there and get help every where.
If I was a drug addict I could get the same amount of help and even "soft" drugs to get me down.
The reaction to being a smoker; Buy some chewing gum and get over it!

Sorry for going away from the subject a bit.

Ian

[tigertiger]

I would like to point out that the Alchoholics Anonymous (AA) view of the problem is not shared by all organisations that help alchoholics. The AA paradigm (life long disease) is helpful to many but not all.

Another view is that excessive drinking is a learned behaviour. For example, many of us in out younger days learned to drink a lot with our mates. And out bodies learned to cope (adapt, or become dependant as the case may be). And many of us now drink less than we used to, so we unlearned.

The AA world view would not have helped me with my problem and my 'mindset', as falling off the wagon would mean I have failed, therefore I might as well drink the whole bottle.

But unlearning allowed me to go out and drink, and even get drunk occasionally, without being racked with guilt and failure. I just considered that the event was 'last night' and I should lay off for a while to make up for it.

I would avoid the wines and spirits section of supermarkets unless I actually wanted to buy alcohol, so no impulse buying.

If I wanted a drink started to buy wine and beer, instead of liquor. And I would not finish off bottles of open beer or wine. I stopped worrying about the 'sinful' waste.

So from a habit of 1 bottle of liquor a night, before going to the pub. I now drink about 1 bottle of wine a month in the winter and about 10 bottles of beer a week in the heat of summer.
So I do consider my self an ex-alchoholic.



BTW I gave up smoking the same way. Occasionally I would buy a pack of cigs when I went out. In the morning I gave them to a guy at work or threw them in the bin. And said to myself, last night I was with mates in a pub so I had a smoke, so what. Today I am off cigs again.

[polaris]

Dear All,

Thankyou very much to all those who have replied to this Topic. It is good to see such things being discussed openly - I didn't expect to see such interesting and numerous replies.

Being full of a wretched cold thing and feeling very fuzzy and very fed up for the last few days, I did get some alcohol yesterday (a good sweet liqueur), to ease head/chest/throat/aches. These rare lapses always leave me very cross with myself for being stupid enough to do it! - knowing that I of all people should know better! So, the first step today was to give away the remaining half of the bottle to an elderly cold sufferer elsewhere - who was very greatful for the contribution! So, an alcohol free zone again!

I have read all your Posts throughly, but, still being full of this wretched cold, will reply properly in a day or so.

Regards, Bernard