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Author Topic: Steam Questions  (Read 10081 times)

Bunkerbarge

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Steam Questions
« on: August 14, 2008, 10:21:06 am »

I was asked recently a question about oilers which made me realise that it might well be usefull to have a thread that dealt specifically with steam plant question from people, new to the field, who may not understand a specific issue. 

I'll start off with Oilers and see where it goes from there.

Obviously as with any moving machinery, metal parts require lubrication to run smoothly and prevent wear, no more so than inside a small reciprocating steam engine.  Steam is also a very good cleaning agent, which is why steam cleaners are so popular, so a particularly viscous oil is used to lubricate the inside surfaces of the engine and which is injected into the supply steam line.  There are basically two types of oiler found on model engines, the mechanical pump, usually found on railway engines, and displacement lubricators, more commonly found on marine engines.  The mechanical pump is quite simply a positive displacement pump operated by a crank connected to a moving part of the engine.  It is actually a more reliable form of oiling as it guarrantees an injection of oil with each stroke of the pump and the quantity can be controlled by some form of external mans.

The displacement lubricator is a bit different and is found usually on the end of a "T" branch off the steam supply line.  The top of the oiler is a removable cap to enable filling the device with oil, which, when initially done should be right to the brim so that when the top is replaced it forces the first couple of drops into the steam line ready for when the engine starts up.  When steam is passing the oiler a small quantity of steam enters the oiler and, having no-where to go, condenses in the slightly cooler space.  When it does that it forms water and falls to the bottom of the lubricator and hence "pushes" the oil upwards and a very small quantity is displaced into the steam pipe.  Over the period of the boat being in the water all the oil in the oiler is displaced by condensed water and the chamber becomes full of water.  When the boat is returned to the bank the drain valve on the oiler can be opened and the water is forced out of the oiler by steam pressure into a drain receptacle, usually the separator tank.  Steam is then shut off, the cap removed and the oiler refilled with fresh steam oil.

The oil that passes through the engine exits mixed with the exhaust steam to be collected by the separator which is then syphoned off when the boat has finished a run.

One of the great advantages of the displacement lubricator is it's simplicity but it is limited in it's most common and basic form in having no control.  There are however nowadays more sophisticated items available which have a valve in the steam line so you can control the amount of oil discharged.  These units are also fitted with a glass chamber so that it is easy to see how much oil and water there is in the oiler at any time.
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2008, 10:31:59 am »

I've just answered a question about steam pipe lagging in another thread and thought that might be usefull here as well.

Steam pipe insulation has to be done the hard way I'm afraid.  I do mine with a reel of twine or fine string, cut a length and carefully and tightly wrap the string along the length of the pipe.  To start off I wrap over the tail to keep it tidy then at the end loop the tail through the last turn, tighten it and cut the tail off close to the surface.  A spot of superglue holds it all in place while I paint it with a matt white enamel such as Humbrol.  Don't bind the pipe right up to the back of the pipe fittings or you will have difficulty fitting and removing the pipe.  Some people use gloss but being a marine engineer, steam pipes have always been matt to me.  If they get dirty they get repainted.

I insulate mine only along the copper pipe and do not cover the brass fittings soldered to the ends.

Here's a couple of examples.
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ooby

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2008, 03:59:51 pm »

Bunkerbarge, great idea, and many thanks for your information. 

The area that is most befuddling to me is, "silver solder".   I'm not to the point of being able to do my own plumbing.  A friend uses Harris #45 solder with gas welding equipment.  I understand that some local hardware store type silver solder has too low of a melting point.  Your expertise would be most appreciated.

Joe
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 09:08:18 pm »

Good question and soldering does seem to cause a lot of concern.

There are basically two different types of soldering, soft soldering and hard soldering.  Soft soldering requires temperatures of sometimes less than 400 deg C which makes it unsuitable for steam use, either in pipes and fitting or boilers so should only be considered for use with plumbing installations and electrical and electronics work.  Soft soldering uses a solder comprising usually of tin and lead in a 60-40% mix and does not actually bond with the parent metal.  By purely capilliary action the solder fills the gaps of the joint and holds the two parts together mechanically. There are nowadays lead free solders as well and these have a melting point of around 250 deg C.

Hard soldering is where silver soldering comes into it and comprises of a filler rod consisting mainly of silver, copper and zinc and requires temperatures in the range of 800 deg C.  This type of soldering is best for steam work as the joints maintain thier strength at all temperatures normally encountered in the plant.


This is a little bit more detail of silver soldering procedures:

As with solf soldering silver soldering works by capillary action so there must be a gap to allow the solder to flow into. The ideal gap should be in the region of between 0.0375 and 0.075 mm

As with all soldering cleanliness is essential and all surfaces to be joined should be cleaned thoroughly, during preparation and immediately prior to assembly. A good rub with either steel wool or emery clothprior to commencing soldering is best.

 Most silver solder rods nowadays come pre coated with flux but if uncoated rods are used the correct flux must be applied. Enough should be applied to ensure that the surfaces to be joined are well coated, but care should be taken to not allow flux to cover too much of the area outside the joint as the liquid solder will flow into this area.

Securing of the work and initial preparation is essential.  The parts must be held in a manner such that they will not move when the heat or solder is applied and not be held in any way that will remove the heat from the job, as in a metal vice.  Use a open hearth made of small insulating bricks, readily available from most machine shop suppliers to keep the heat in the job area.

Silver solder requires temperatures of somewhere between 600 deg C to 800 deg C dependant on the rod make up, so a means of generating those temperatures is also essential. Hobby propane torches are usually sufficient but remember it is easier to turn a flame down that it is to generate the required heat from a flame that is too small. The heat should always be applied to the parent metal, not to the solder and evenly to both parts of the joint.  Usually a cherry red is just about right but care should be taken that both parts are of an equal temerature otherwise the solder will only flow over one surface. The flux will eventually become clear which is an indication that it is about the right temperature for soldering, and the solder should then be touched to the work.

With large volumes of metal, such as a boiler, it will be found that the metal conducts the heat away so rapidly that it is often hard to achieve a high enough temperature. A second heat source may be required, or carefull placement of the fire bricks mentioned above.

After all soldering is finished, allow the joint to cool and then all traces of the flux should be removed.  For larger objects such as a boiler a suitable pickle should be used, which is a mild acid, but for most hobby work a soak in warm soapy water and a rub with either wet and dry or wire wool will clean the joint and allow for easy polishing afterwards.

The strength of a correctly made silver soldered joint should be equal to the strength of the parent metal.

the joints in these pictures were all made using these techniques.

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ooby

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 10:36:30 pm »

Bunkerbarge, 

My words of "Thanks", don't begin to convey my gratitude.  But, "Thank you, Sir", for your most informative and prompt information.  I've printed it, and will start practicing.

Joe
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Martin (Admin)

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2008, 08:17:32 am »

Yes, a very interesting read BB. How about a few words on different type of boiler pumps.
I've heard that they run at a fixed feed rate and non adjustable....?!?!?
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SteamboatPhil

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2008, 09:31:13 am »

The boiler pumps on my engines have a variable throw crank (ie tapped holes a various pitches) and the pump boby is clamped, so when you alter the pump stroke, you can slide the pump body to ensure that the pump rum reaches the end of the pump body. I also fit a by pass valve just in case on the smallest stroke I'm still getting too much water.
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mrsgoggins

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2008, 11:31:28 am »

To add to Bunkerbarge's info on silver soldering, you can stop the solder going where it shouldn't by painting the surface with "Tippex". Use the solvent based version, not the environmentally friendly one.

Keith
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2008, 03:00:24 am »

Let's have a look at the basic three types of boiler feed pump.

To start with feed pumps are usually of a positive displacement piston type pump.  There may be others out there but I haven't come across one yet!  The only real difference is how you drive them and how you control them.

First up is the manual one.  Bring the boat into the bank, open the valve from your feed tank and into the boiler and manually pump a bit more water into the boiler by a little handle connected to the pump.  This has the disadvantage of putting a slug of cold water into the boiler but the advantage of not taking any power away from the engine.  You also have to bring the boat into the side every now and then anyway to empty the separator tank and fill the lubricator so this actually fits in reasonably nicely with this process.  It also keeps the plant that bit more simple as it uses a bit less pipework and a valve less.

Next up is an electrically driven pump.  This also does not take power away from the engine but obviously requires a battery, motor and gearbox unit and a means of control.  This can be via an electrical signal from a boiler level sensor giving complete control of the feed.  This does not put a slug of cold water in but a continuous controlled feed but the complete assembly with battery is heavy.

Last type is an engine driven pump.  This has the major advantage of a degree of built in control as the demand on the boiler is dependant on the use of the engine and the faster the engine goes the faster the pump goes.  It is not quite that simple though as load on the engine varies and so the steam requirement is not exactly proportional to the engine speed.  This set up usually uses a two way valve which discharges the pump to either the boiler or back to the feed tank.  The two way valve can be manually set, thus relying on the speed of the engine to control the feed, which is, as stated not perfect, or it can be controlled electronically via a sensor on the boiler which changes the valve over from boiler to return line.

Problems with sensors can occur when they are the type that fits around the sight glass as the level is invariably innacurate due to capilliary action of the water and steam in the sight glass giving false readings.  The best sensors are a capacitor type that sits in the top of the boiler but here a degree of damping is required in the circuitry to allow for the water sloshing around in the boiler. 

Therer are also pumps driven by the engine which can be controlled in other ways such as the one above where the stroke is varied but this once again is not perfect although experienced operators will get the pump stroke at a point where it will keep the boiler topped up for the duration of a run before the separator and lubricator require attention.
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Martin (Admin)

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2008, 03:29:29 am »


This is all very interesting BB, thanks for taking the time and patients to explain to me the basics of steam.


So my next questions are about boilers and making steam;
1. Do you use tap water in model steam engines?
2. In the boiler, what the best ratio of water to air for making steam in a horizontal non tubed boiler?
3. Is the same for a vertical boiler?
4. Is the ratio different for a tubed boiler?
5. Is brazing or silver soldering usually used in the construction of a boiler?
6. Pressure testing, I understand you use a hydraulic method, what are the rules?
7. Is the pipework tested too, if not, why not?
8. I often read the ships boilers have to be regularly cleaned, do modeller have to do the same?
9. What does 'blowdown" mean?
10. I sort of understand 'supereated steam', what sort of percentage gain do you get over non 'superheated steam'?

 ....... Do you think I should get a book on the subject?
           Naaa, You get real time answers from current active modellers this way!
               Again thanks for your Time Bunkerbarge!  :)

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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2008, 08:04:28 pm »


Thanks for the questions.  Let me start however by saying that I do not want to be seen as some sort of expert in these things.  There are a number of members here who know more about model steam plant that I will ever know and they are more than welcome to add their thoughts and views as and when they feel.  All I am happy to do here though is share my own experiences with those who would like to know a bit more about the subject and perhaps offer a bit of guidance as to how to put together and operate a model steam plant.  They can be very frustrating but they can also be tremendously rewarding and well worth getting to know a few things about the basics. 

If I don’t know something I will do a bit of research to support an answer and if I can’t find the answer I’ll tell you.  Also be aware that in steam plant as well as with most areas of our hobby there are more ways than one to skin the cat.  Consequently there are quite often many solutions and all I will try to do are offer my own views on their individual merits.  It remains up to the modeler which path he chooses to take.

Lets have a look at the questions:

1.   Do you use tap water in model steam engines?

I have heard a number of sources say that they use tap water but to me, and I think it is probably as a result of my marine engineering background, I always use distilled water.  I know we use the boiler comparatively infrequently so scale shouldn’t be a big problem but if you live in an area of hard water you will generate some scale build up.  For me the fiver a gallon is worth it to know that you will never generate any scale.  Remember that the very first steam engines actually used raw sea water as feed but they had to de scale the boiler every couple of days!

2.   In the boiler, what the best ratio of water to air for making steam in a horizontal non tubed boiler?

A difficult question and no hard and fast rule that I know of.  Most boilers I suspect will be manually fed so the level will vary between a high and a low level as judged by the modeler so in the case of those I would suggest that you operate between 25%-33% full and 66%-75% full.  Any lower is getting dangerously close to drying out and serious overheating and any more and you are getting too close to hydraulically locking (completely full) and then run a very serious risk of over pressure and rupture.  Don’t forget the pressure relief valve is designed to vent off steam, it cannot vent off water fast enough to prevent over pressure if it is full.  If you have a level control system I would go for a set point of about 66% full.  Too low and an ingress of water will bring the temperature down too quickly and too high reduces the steam volume so you run out quicker when you use it fast.

3.   Is the same for a vertical boiler?

I would say yes, but only based on marine vertical auxiliary boiler experience!!

4.   Is the ratio different for a tubed boiler?

If there are any members out there with more experience please feel free to add your comments but my own views would be the same as long as the tubes remain flooded, which may modify the lower level a little.

5.   Is brazing or silver soldering usually used in the construction of a boiler?

It is a bit of a misnomer that brazing and silver soldering are different techniques.  They are actually both the same and vary only really in the temperatures involved.  In both cases the technique only melts the filler material and so the filler does not actually fuse to the parent metal.  The differences being that silver solder melts at around 600 deg C but brazing rods, consisting of mainly bronze or brass melt at around 800-1000 deg C.  A very good description of the whole process is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazing

I thin k in most model boilers you will find that they have been brazed because A) The melting point is higher therefore the joints are less susceptible to heat issues and B) Braze material is a lot cheaper than silver solder.  For home use silver solder is that bit easier to achieve as Oxy-Acetylene gear is not required to reach the higher temperatures needed with brazing.


6.   Pressure testing, I understand you use a hydraulic method, what are the rules?

Prior to January 1st 2006 all relevant bodies concerned with model steam plants had their own set of rules.  This was obviously very difficult to understand and comply with and put a lot of people off.  As of the 1st January 2006 these organizations all got their heads together and declared a set of rules and regulations for model boilers to comply with.  These rules have been accepted by the Health and Safety Executive, most of the big insurance providers and most modeling organizations.  The unfortunate bottom line with these rules was the one point five Bar-Litre requirement.  If you find the capacity of your boiler as the total internal volume in litres and multiply it by the working pressure in Bars you will find you own Bar-Litre figure.  A limit of one point five unfortunately meant that basically only Mamod and Wilesco type boilers were exempt so the vast majority of model boat boilers required testing.

In 2007 however the pressure exerted on the organizations resulted in a reassessment of the requirements and the Bar-Litre rule was changed to three, which now includes about 80-90% of model boat boilers.  Consequently if your boiler is less than the three Bar-Litre limit you are exempt from the testing regulations, however, it is recommended that safety valves are tested at least once every 12 months and the boiler and pipework installation should also be checked at least every 12 months.  Exempt also means from the old steam test requirements.  This is not to say however that all insurance companies accept these standards and even some clubs have their own rules for members to comply with so it is still not quite as cut and dried as it may seem.  It is however the responsibility of the owner to ensure that any regulations that apply to the model in any situation it is in are adhered to.

7.   Is the pipework tested too, if not, why not?

As above

8.   I often read the ships boilers have to be regularly cleaned, do modeller have to do the same?

Marine boilers under Lloyds are surveyed every 30 months which is an inspection of all internal surfaces for signs of cracks and surface corrosion/erosion as well as a visual inspection of all fittings and shell penetrations.  On reassembly the safety valves have to be tested and all safety shut downs demonstrated.  If the water treatment has been looked after and maintained within limits and the combustion equipment has been kept in good order there should be very little cleaning required.

Model boilers are a little different in so far as you can’t actually crawl around inside them but similar things apply.  If you keep your burners in good order and combustion clean and efficient you will not generate any soot deposits and if you use distilled water you should not generate any scale on the water side.  If soot has built up a complete strip down and a soak in warm soapy water should shift most soot deposits and if scale has formed in the water spaces a descaler such as Calgon or any other kettle descaler could be used in the water side.

9. What does 'blowdown" mean?

Blowing Down a marine boiler is done to remove impurities in the water that the water treatment has conditioned into sludge.  You simply open a valve on the bottom of the boiler and then an over board valve and blow out the sludge.  You will normally blow down about half the gauge glass of water to ensure the deposits are removed.  If subsequent testing shows high levels of suspended solids them you may increase the treatment and blow down until the impurities return to normal levels.  In conjunction with this process is the scumming of the boiler and we usually blow and scum at the same time.  Scumming is where other impurities, also conditioned by the water treatment, float to the top of the water and remain there. A large funnel, just below the normal surface of the water is connected to the blow down line and a valve, when opened, scums off the floating impurities and blows them down the blow down line.  Normal routine watch keeping practice would be to scum first, then blow down and the blow down the gauge glasses to ensure that they are clear and reading correctly.

As far as model boilers are concerned the same expression is used if you blow down the boiler i.e. open up a valve below the water level to remove the water from the boiler.  Sometimes modelers will do this as part of the shutting down process to completely remove the water from the boiler and you might also hear it in reference to the lubricator when you would blow it down to remove the condensed water collected in the bottom of it.

10.   I sort of understand 'supereated steam', what sort of percentage gain do you get over non 'superheated steam'?

VERY basically steam is said to be “Wet” or “Saturated” when it still contains moisture which is what we produce in a model boiler and many marine auxiliary boilers.  To get to “Superheated” steam you need to have to heat this steam in the absence of water to a temperature above the evaporation temperature. Hence if the saturated steam produced in a boiler is exposed to a surface with a higher temperature, its temperature will increase above the evaporating temperature.

The steam is then described as superheated by the number of temperature degrees through which it has been heated above saturation temperature.

Superheat cannot be imparted to the steam whilst it is still in the presence of water, as any additional heat simply evaporates more water. The saturated steam must be passed through an additional heat exchanger. This may be a second heat exchange stage in the boiler, or a separate superheater unit. The primary heating medium may be either the hot flue gas from the boiler, or may be separately fired.

Some model boilers are fitted with an additional coil that passes the steam discharge through the exhaust gas of the boiler and thus takes the steam into the superheated range but it is a bit primitive as the steam does not spend a lot of time in the coil and so does not get much chance to take on much more heat from the exhaust gas.  How many degrees of superheat are achieved is anybody’s guess but any additional heat energy that you can get into the steam is an advantage as it is additional energy available to be used to drive the engine.  It also helps to keep the supply steam that bit drier which then helps to prevent the steam from washing away the lubricating oil in the engine.

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SteamboatPhil

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2008, 09:44:06 pm »

What BB said, but I must add re boiler testing, to enter any Model Power Boat Assocation event you must have a boiler test cirtificate no matter what size the boiler as we do not accept the bar litre chart (which has sort of become a chinese whisper as to is it or isn't it a rule)Super heated steam gives you greater efficency on the engine as it has a greater expansion rate, oh my high speed units this is easier to achieve than on the small scale gas fired units, as I have a petrol blowlamp firing through the semi flash coils, so I still have a lot of heat at the end, which is where I have around 2 turns of pipe before going into the engine.
On the water front, one of boilers was built pre war by my grandfather and has used pond water for most of that time. I must say that I know pump from water tanks in the boat (well god knows whats in ponds these days), and the water I use is from the water collection tank in the tumble drier (good stuff) Although I do use tap water some of the time.
Further advertising to follow, but meanwhile I will be lecturing (I hate that term, more like giving a sort of informed chat) on high speed and flash steam at the Midlands Model Engineer Exhibition in October, so pop along Martin (its not boring--really, and they only give me 45 mins so not to long)further chats on my stand of course ;D
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2008, 10:17:57 pm »

I think we have to ensure that people understand the 3 bar-litre rule is exactly that, a rule.  There is no Chinese whisper about it, but what leads to the confusion and then clouds the fact is that so many organisations put thier own rules above and beyong that.  This of course then makes it very difficult for steam modellers to take thier models to events which may well be covered by different rules put in place by local organisations.

As I always say, and said above again, it is the responsibility of the individual to find out what the rules are at any event and ensure that they comply with them.
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oiler

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2008, 08:52:44 pm »

GREAT WORK!!
Martin this thread should be stickied! (should be always on top)

One word of caution about using distilled water. ONLY USE STEAM DISTILLED WATER AND NOT DEIONIZED WATER!!! Make sure it says steam distilled on the jug!

I run G scale live steam locomotives and guys found out the hard way.

Here's a quote from an article for you to read about it.

Deionized water contains no ions, which means it has had the chemically reactive molecules removed. If put into contact with metals, however, it will happily take on new ions, with disastrous results. Mike Chaney wrote about the effect of using deionized water at a UK exhibition:

    "After about a weeks running some of the loco boilers started to "weep", although they had been properly tested and certified. An investigation showed that the silver soldered joints were failing because the water was trying to grab back ions from any metal with which it came into contact. Copper, zinc and silver were found to be particularly susceptible."

Because of the way it is 'purified', it can cause long term problems by slowly removing zinc from the brass fittings - commonly called de-zincification.

Another article about deionized water corroding copper.

http://www.finishing.com/320/35.shtml

Low heat silver solder:
In the UK there is low heat silver solder that has cadmium in it like easy flo no 2. I have used it here in the states and it's a great solder for steam fittings because it melts at around 608-617°C. However cadmium solder poses a health risk and that is why it is not availible in the states.

If you live in the states and need a good sliver solder for non steam lines (water, gas, exhaust ...) you could use Harris Stay-brite #8 silver bearing solder # SB831 1/16

spec sheet for Stay-Brite #8:
http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/pdf/spec/Solder/HARRIS_STAY_BRITE_8_SILVER_BEARING_SOLDER.pdf

Anyway great post! Need more of them.


About easyflo:
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/Easy2.pdf
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wideawake

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2008, 01:46:27 pm »

I think we have to ensure that people understand the 3 bar-litre rule is exactly that, a rule.  There is no Chinese whisper about it, but what leads to the confusion and then clouds the fact is that so many organisations put thier own rules above and beyong that.  This of course then makes it very difficult for steam modellers to take thier models to events which may well be covered by different rules put in place by local organisations.

As I always say, and said above again, it is the responsibility of the individual to find out what the rules are at any event and ensure that they comply with them.

IMHO - It's very sad that after all the effort that went into getting a dispensation at 3 bar/litres accepted by the HSE organisations such as MPBA then negate all that effort by refusing to accept it.   I find it hard to believe that HSE would have accepted 3 bar/litres if they had any doubt about the danger posed by small boilers.   Why we need to shoot ourselves in the foot by then imposing additional restrictions is not something I comprehend.

While I agree with BB's final comment I'm inclined to the viiew that a more positive approach might be to boycott any event which doesn't accept the 3 bar/litre rule provided that the modeller has appropriate insurance.

Just my 2 penn'orth

Guy
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Bunkerbarge

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2008, 02:35:39 pm »

I agree Guy, a lot of lobbying and canvassing went into changing the rules to be more convenient to most modellers.  Unfortunately all this has now been wasted by the fact that so many local organisations and and clubs insist on having thier own individual rules.

It is certainly going to have a detrimental effect because I know lads in my own club are fed up with the confusion and are simply not bothering with steam any more.

I think that part of the problem was that the 3 bar-ltr rule is actually too lax and I can see the concern from some that we leave our selves a bit too open.  It only recommends, as opposed to requires, that safety valves are checked, which is ridiculous.

The real answer for me, and the one which every one seemed to ignore, was keeping the 1.5 bar-ltr rule making it compulsory to test most model boilers, but change the frequency to every five years.  This would make it all much more convenient but still maintain a reasonable requirement for responsible testing.

Lets face it Lloyds require full size auxilliary marine boilers to be tested every 30 months and they are running sometimes almost continuously.  Why on earth we should consider a frequency for a model boiler of 24 months for something that might be in use a couple of hours a week as a maximum just doesn't make sense.
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Bernhard

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2008, 02:49:06 pm »

hMMM REALE STRANGES WITH ALL THIS RULES...IN DENMARK I DONT THINK WI HAVE ENY FORE MODEL STEAM...AND IF,,,I WILL JUST FIND A NICE LAKE AND HAVE FUN WITH MY STEAM LAUNCH...WHAT EVER THE RULES SAIS,,,,,WHO CARES  ..
REGARDS BERNHARD
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oiler

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Re: Steam Questions
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2008, 04:00:38 am »

Well I just got a hold of the Arizona boiler commission today and apparently there are no rules for operating our small boilers. As long as we do not use it for commercial purposes or give rides on our boats.

In fact after an hour long conversation I think the head of the commission is going to buy a steam engine  {-) Needless to say he was very interested and wants to see my steam engines and locomotives.
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