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[TCC]

The 'black cotton between two points' is not floating my boat anymore and I need to up my game on a scale battleship build. I'm after  the best of the best practices here. What do the top guys use? andn do?

Cotton is or goes fluffy...

Wire you can never get straight unless it is taut enough to pull fittings off...

I caught mention of 'lycra' thread the other day.. and in various thicknesses, is that it? Or waxed cotton?

You know the type of rigging I'm on about, they bring the actual cord up to the riggee (eyebolt?) pass it through then return it away, then they wrap a 2nd much thinner strand around (for a fair length) to bind the 'up' and 'return' under the thinner in one nice neat bundle. How do they do that? I mean in practical terms as if you're actually doing that on the model, amoung masts and spars and davits, indeed amoung other rigging, well you're not easily able to take that thinner cord around them up + return as you'll always have to relase your hand at least twice in every 360 and how do you keep the original rigging taut while yo wrap the thinner around?

[boatmadman]

I have used cotton, then run wax over the cotton to de fluff it. Alternatively, paint the cotton, both have worked for me.

As for binding, I tensioned the rigging and stuck it with a touch of superglue, then touched a little superglue on the section to be bound and wrapped the cord around tightly.

Ian

[TCC]

Hi Ian
Thanks for your ideas.. a dab of superglue will keep things taut while you wrap the thinner strand round.

Is there any way to prefabricate off-ship? Y'see, that's the issue, working space. This is a built build and I restoring and unfinished model. That would mke a long, hard offputting chore much less so.

Hve you ever waxed white cotton? can you se any deposits?

Thanks

[tigertiger]

If you tie a piece of thread between two points.
Then run thin (502) CA along the thread.
When dry it is semi rigid like wire.

[TCC]

If you tie a piece of thread between two points.
Then run thin (502) CA along the thread.
When dry it is semi rigid like wire.

I think I'm using that superglue now. I only have to touch the nozzle to something and capilliary action does the rest... glued my fingers to very delicate things innumerable times! I've never known CA like it! Tried to glue a small thin tube the other week and bam.... finger and thumb glued together with a tube in between!

I'm used to cheap 'pound shop' types that are thicker and leave a white residue.

Anyway, back tot he rigging: Yes, that's a technique to use.

I suppose my question is of the 'how do I carry a ladder up a tower block' type, [i.e no one set answer with step-by-step instructions] But for a free standing cord out away from anything, yes, I'd have no touble rapping the thinner around the cord. But I'm facing 4 cords in a line  and they are about 4mm apart. It's actually 2 sets of 4 and 2 of 3. Here ->



Excuse the photo. This is an old model I'm finishing/restoring. The rigging you see is mk2 and I'm not v happy about it. But it was a bxxxh to do messing with eyebolts, bottle-screws and the wire 'O' 'washers' in between. In fact, I was grateful just to complete it. I'm now doing away with the 'O's and will just rig the bottlescrew to the cord directly with the 'thinner cord rapped around the bigger' ends.

Thanks lads

[ian kennedy]

Hi TCC,

One method i use for 1/96th scale and smaller is to get some fine copper wire for standing rigging on 19th and 20th centuary period warships.

strech the copper straight , then with fine needle nosed pliers bend a small open loop at one end, leaving it with a tail about 10-15mm long.

thread it through your eylet or anchoring point, close the loop with the pliers and wrap the excess tail wire around itself to represent the binding.

Pull the wire tight after you have threaded it through th other mounting eye and bind round like above.

All looks well after a few light coats of suitable paint.

For natural looking rigging rope etc, i use MANTUA rigging chord in natural or black, pull it through some furniture scratch wax and run through your fingers with pressure...no fury fibres...knot or tie off and a tiny blob of thin quality cyano on the knot will secure the joint.

Hope this helps

Regards
Ian

[TCC]

I'm looking at 1.6mm and 2.4mm 'black' heatshrink that reduces 2:1, so that'll be about .8 and 1.2mm respectively.

Y'see, what's causing me issues is wrapping the binding around. I'm using some copper wire out of some compnonet and it's like 'a babies hair'. I've had to quadruple it up so I can get some distance per turn, but it's a B to do.

I'm now thinking of pre-fabricating these strands off-ship and fixing them to the eyebolt with a wire 'O' or an oval '0' to make up for adjustments. I've read of guys who do this but the adjustment is in the hook.. same principle.

This is what I did last week. It's a proper ship model cord (hemp?) but I aimed to paint it ship colour anyway, that and the binding. (the green and black paint is just to insulate bare wire from the LED)



While I'm not that happy with the way I've rigged the 'wire' holding the gaff(?) and certain bits are bad choices, it would have been so much easier if I could have shrink wrapped those bindings. I may re-do this using home-made 'wire' from 3-5 strands of this fine copper wire. To scale the image, the ring at the end of the 'gaff' is 2mm dia.


Anyone got a supplier of very small beads for rigging fixtures? I'm using the insulation from wires at the mo but they aren't the correct shape.

[tigertiger]

This book may fit the bill.
https://shop.traplet.com/product.aspx?c=291
Rigging Period Ship Models - by Lennarth Petersson


Read the writeup, it does say it includes knots.

I have not purchased my self, but may well do in future.

Traplet also has a sale on now, and I think UK postage is free at the moment for orders over 30 quid, but check online.

[boatmadman]

TCC

beads can be got from evilbay, a quick look and I saw sizes down to 2.4mm

Ian

[tigertiger]

I'm looking at 1.6mm and 2.4mm 'black' heatshrink that reduces 2:1, so that'll be about .8 and 1.2mm respectively.

Y'see, what's causing me issues is wrapping the binding around. I'm using some copper wire out of some compnonet and it's like 'a babies hair'. I've had to quadruple it up so I can get some distance per turn, but it's a B to do.

I have used heat shrink for binding. It might work for static models, but close inspection you can see it is not binding.

It is no good for working models. It just is not suitable for taking a load. The lines will slip through, mine did. I had to tie a stop knot in the tail end to stop it slipping through.

[barriew]

I've used heat shrink, it holds for awhile, so I add a drop of superglue into the heatshrink to seal it. That seems to stand up to reasonable use - probably not on a sailing vessel though. Be sure to shrink it and let it cool BEFORE adding the CA - heating CA is not a good idea .

Barrie

[Wetwater]

  Small beads, in various sizes shapes and colours, can be obtained from haberdashery shops ( what a funny word ) craft shops or
  most department stores which have a curtain material, thread, ribbon etc section.   Ask SWMBO. 

[TCC]

Hi All
I re-did that piece in the photo with home-made 'rope' of 3 strands of copper wire with small 'beads',in reality, insulation from wire that is <1mm. Looks tons better and I'm far happier with things... I un-done all the short-cuts and did it properly... i.e. each end to a cord is binded, the spar is cut shorter and looks more real... more to scale. I'd also sited the beads equally and the same on all 4 lengths. I've also now found mystyle of rope for the rigging, copper wire woven like rope, so I'll use that on all of the shrouds, etc.

I used Ians method with this copper wire (rope) and brought a tail up through the eyebolt and wrapped that around using CA to keep it steady and tight.

Boatmadman, 2.4mm is too big, I'm needing <1mm beads for .3 or .5 wire or cord.

Tigertiger, It's not a knot book I need, I have one of them.

The heatshrink lads, I've gone the other way now seeing as it's a naff idea for a moving boat, cheers!

Barrie, why does CA like flame? What's in it? I tried rounding my square 'beads' off the other day (with a lighter) and next thing I had no cord between the eyebolts!    Like 'puff' and the CA covered thread was gone, replaced by 2 blackened embers at either end. That'll teach me to use non-traditional methods...

Don't forget lads, we are talking about beads that are 1mm or less. The black insulation (beads) in the above image is wire about 1mm, the green insultion (beads) is thinner and as thin as practical. The only other maybe better method I can think of is to build up a 'bead' with a ball of glue (PVA or CA?) and add to build it up, form it's shape.

cheers

[tigertiger]

Hi TCC

The book I quoted is not a knot book. It is a rigging book, for period ship models.

[barriew]

Barrie, why does CA like flame? What's in it? I tried rounding my square 'beads' off the other day (with a lighter) and next thing I had no cord between the eyebolts!    Like 'puff' and the CA covered thread was gone, replaced by 2 blackened embers at either end. That'll teach me to use non-traditional methods...
cheers

Don't know about that - I understood that CA good release cyanide if heated that's why I said what I did.

Barrie

[RickF]

TCC,

I have a PDF file with all the illustrations  from Pettersson's book (67 pages) but no text. It is very detailed but applies to 18-19 century sailing vessels. You are welcome to a copy if you want one - but not sure how much help it will be for 20 century warships.

Rick

[dreadnought72]

Tcc, for beads of about a millimetre, surely you've said it already: it'll be easier to just build up a small blob o' PVA in the right place?

For the bottoms of the shrouds, would they have been whipped rope ends? Wouldn't bottle-screws have been a more likely choice, with the shoruds steel wire? (I am fully confident here that I may well be talking out my  ).

The Lion for this period has those funky hexagonal spreaders for the radio aerials: what approach are you going to take with these? (I'm still wondering how best to do it in 1/72nd for the Dreadnought...do I need to think "photoetch"?)

All the best,

Andy

[TCC]

TCC,

I have a PDF file with all the illustrations  from Pettersson's book (67 pages) but no text. It is very detailed but applies to 18-19 century sailing vessels. You are welcome to a copy if you want one - but not sure how much help it will be for 20 century warships.

Rick

Please... it can't do any harm, right? Rick, could you send to:

ffff-fred'at'blueyonder.co.uk

Ta!

I do have a few derricks to rig and these have pairs of pulley under the boom to the load... but they can also have them holding up the boom head and moving the boom from side to side. But they also just use one pulley to do the same roles so I suppose.. well I know, they used the best method for the workload they faced. I just haven't chosen what way to go, yet. The same goes for the radial davits for the accomodation ladders.

[tigertiger]

A security note to all members.

Putting your email address into a post may not be a good idea.

Webcrawler software crawls through the internet looking for '@'. They then capture the email address and the next thing you know, SPAM.

It is safer to put something like
    "please email me at Fred*hotmail.com , where you see '*' please insert '@' , I have done this to stop SPAM"

[TCC]

Tcc, for beads of about a millimetre, surely you've said it already: it'll be easier to just build up a small blob o' PVA in the right place?
Yeah, I always have good ideas after I've done the job!

But what about the triangular beads and the other rigging fittings I see occasionally on the better model builds?

What I did last night was use the under 1mm insulation, fixed it with CA and the CA has balled around the 'bead' and rounded it out nicely. I'm quite impressed with myself, really.

For the bottoms of the shrouds, would they have been whipped rope ends? Wouldn't bottle-screws have been a more likely choice, with the shoruds steel wire? (I am fully confident here that I may well be talking out my  ).
No, that's it for the ones around the mainmast... Steel wire with bottle-screws at the bottom. Butmy Q about 'how do I do the binding?' was for everything... the funnel stays, well all the 'wire' really.

Now tey used steel wire in the real ship. I've used wire but I can never get it tight enough so it's straight (without bends) without damaging the fittings either end. Plus there's little 'give' in wire and a pond-side knock will damage something.

So I tried this cord. That didn't look right, imho, as you ca see with the above images.

Cotton gathered dust on the loose strands... shirring elastic, after 10 yrs of storage, looked like those worms on the beach.

So I've now gone with copper wire woven into a 'rope'. It has some bad points... but I can shape it if it's slack to have some realistic droop to it, plus while it's not a realistic scale looking thing, it looks nice! I just don't know whether to paint it and if so, what colour. But my main issue, how to bind the ends, I've sussed.



This is my mk3 (mk 3½?) of rigging this top and I'm pretty happy with it.

The Lion for this period has those funky hexagonal spreaders for the radio aerials: what approach are you going to take with these? (I'm still wondering how best to do it in 1/72nd for the Dreadnought...do I need to think "photoetch"?)
I made mine at first. I tried making the 'spiders' [the technical name for them told me by someone in the know. ;-)] with 8 strands of wire 'eyebolts' eminating from the centre held by a drop of CA. The gauge of the wire made them very weak.

I tied making each arm from twisted wire hoping the twisted 2 strands would impart strngth. Nah... there was no solidity to the structure that would wistand use. There was nothing else for it but to put a disc in the middle of the spider and that did give it the rigidity they needed. I then made about 20 of them, 20x8 arms = a lot of making thin wire eyebolts. You can see then in the middle of this image:



The table is 5/8ths thick, iirc, they were about 10mm across and even then were over-scale. LION didn't have this disc in the middle of her 'spiders' but I've seen other WW1 capital ships that do have this design. I've also found then with just a wire ring.

But someone offered me a set of bespoke items, they are the round wire type in photo-etch and have 5 strands to them. I didn't look that gift horse in the mouth as his were nicer and will last the inevitable knocks they'll get.

I'm now dismantling them and using all these 'eyebolt' arms as the eybolts in my much thinner bottlscrews to go at the bottom of my shrouds. You can see 2 of the old style of bottlescrews in the above image. I now make them with the thinnest insulation I can with a wire 'eyebolt' either end.

All the best,

Andy

Other than do what I'm doing, I don't know any other way of making them. Do they make a metal tube <1mm?

I've just been stuck on how to make pulley wheels or 1 to 1.5mm dia. These are the ones at the top of the yardarm for the signal halyards and the slightly bigger apr for the helm indicators (green ball and red flag) How I'm doing them is to take a sliver of tube and use that as the pulley. You just then pass a wire thru and fill the centre in nxt time you mix filler. Once the halyard is passed over it, you're eye doesn't see that the pulley doesn't have the 'v' groove missing. You won't have this issue seeing you're building to the scale you are. You can see the above is the white pulley wheels in the above images.

Anyway, cheers
Paul

[RickF]

I'll send the PDF, but it's such a big beast - 26.5 kb! I tried sending it in one go,but cancelled after about 10 minutes. I've tried reducing its size using Acrobat but I can't get it any smaller. I'll chop it into four and see how it goes.

Rick

[TCC]

I'll send the PDF, but it's such a big beast - 26.5 kb! I tried sending it in one go,but cancelled after about 10 minutes. I've tried reducing its size using Acrobat but I can't get it any smaller. I'll chop it into four and see how it goes.

Rick

Hey Rick, Are you on broadband? I'd hate to think of you doing this on Xp a minute ISP and would prefer you to stop. Sure, I'd like to see it but not if it's excessive for you in anyway. If it's easy, send it... if it's a chore, well I appreciate the thought.

You'd be better splitting it into 4 as if it gets bounced for any reason, that'll be coming back to you, won't it? I once had murder with a 8mb attachment that got bounced once and it was stuck in my ISP inbox. The trouble was everytime I went to d/l it from their server, my dail-up connection would dropout at some point and it would then revert back to the start.. drove me nuts! I wouldn't have wished that on my worst enemy.

Cheers rick

[RickF]

Yes, I am on broadband, I did split it in four and it still bounced! I'll PM you.

Rick

[TCC]

Tcc, for beads of about a millimetre, surely you've said it already: it'll be easier to just build up a small blob o' PVA in the right place?

And you DO mean build up, don't you? That's an excercise in patience! I made a nice set of PVA beads last night, really nice round, small, balls of it and went to bed with that satisfied feeling you get when you do good work.

Got up today to nothing, 1 or 2 you can just sense that there's a layer of PVA around the cord, so judgeing by that, it'll need about 6 to 10 coats of PVA to make a bead. Unless you 'fill' the pva with a inert substance? A powder of some sort.. but then you'd loose the ability of the liquid to self-ball.

I think a resin may be better... or any 'liquid' that 'sets' without shrinkage.

[tigertiger]

Have you tried silicone gap filler or silicone sealant?
The latter also comes in a range of colours.
The former is designed for filling cracks, so I assume it will take paint easily.