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Author Topic: antenna length  (Read 7195 times)

neilthebus

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antenna length
« on: September 25, 2006, 07:37:06 pm »

Another step along the way! (so much different from placing your bachmann loco on the track and turning the controller on).

How critical is the length of the antenna wire fitted to the receiver on the boat. I am wanting to fit a rigid wire antenna to the outside of my tug and then connect the thin wire from the reciever to that. Is that feasible or is there some complex formula involved  (like converting proper feet and inches to this new fangled metric jobby) to work out antenna length.

All replies gratefully received if not necessarily understood!!! ???
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Colin Bishop

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2006, 07:51:17 pm »

The rule is that the total antennae length from the receiver should be the same as the wire supplied. If you have an external wire then cut off the equivalent length from the original receiver wire and then connect it, preferably with a gold plated connector if not soldered. This will maintain the tuned length of the antennae which is important in giving the best reception and therefore greatest range from the transmitter. Having part of the antennae vertical will also help improve reception which is why many modellers either use or run the antennae up a mast.
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ambernblu

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2006, 07:56:24 pm »

Hiya...

Thats actually a feasible way of increasing the reception for the receiver, provided you don't cut the original length of the antenna wire down (well thats the golden rule i was always taught anyway!)

I think I used a spade connector(?) soldered the female end to the antenna wire so that when marrying up the removable superstructure with the hull meant clipping the antenna wire to whatever you are using as the aerial(!) Sense? Hope so...  :D

Which Bachmann was that then Neil - being an LMS and GWR fan myself....  ;D

Cheers, Brian
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neilthebus

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2006, 08:13:31 pm »

Thanks Brian

On the bachmann front it was class 08 and 24. Very much a diesel and electric man. Not much into mobile kettles.

Back to antenna length. Do I understand you correctly. If I connect the original wire to an outside aerial thats ok providing I keep the original flexible wire length to that as supplied?
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Colin Bishop

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2006, 08:31:55 pm »

No! The TOTAL antennae length should be the same as the original flexible wire supplied with the receiver - sure Brian will agree  :)
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ambernblu

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2006, 08:37:48 pm »

Hi Neil,

Mobile kettles indeed!  :D

Two of my boats have flexible wire aerials (by MFA?) which bolt into the removable deck and below, have a spade coupling on the end, from which the female part of the connector is soldered to the receiver wire. No mention was made of cutting the receiver antenna wire down (in fact this has always been advised against in my own limited experience!) but I've never had reception problems with these two boats - in fact I've regularly run them across to the other side of the lake without any hassle. Height of antenna is also obviously another major plus factor inherent in retaining good reception!

Colin however is advising retaining the original length of the receiver antenna if an additional length (aerial) is added... (?) To be honest, I wasn't aware of this being necessary  ???

My scale model boats utilise an aerial wire run around the inside of the model and that is generally sufficient to obtain a good result reception wise, without the wire spoiling the lines of the model.

Cheers, Brian  
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meechingman

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2006, 08:39:43 pm »

Having part of the antennae vertical will also help improve reception which is why many modellers either use or run the antennae up a mast.

Absolutely correct, though, looking around the pond yesterday, just about everyone - myself included - was holding their TX with the antenna flat or at around 30 degrees. They only went vertical when someone wanted to walk in front of them! I have a vertical RX antenna in one tug and a horizontal loop in the other. My yacht has a part coiled, part vertical wire. Can't say I've noticed any difference in ranges. Seems that the length is more critical than the orientation.

Andy G
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Colin Bishop

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2006, 09:11:45 pm »

For practical purposes at usual distances most modern kit is pretty forgiving but at longer ranges it is important to try and keep the total aerial/antennae length the same as that supplied with the receiver as this is tuned to the transmitting wavelength. As Meechingman says, the "natural" transmitter angle is around 30 degrees to the vertical so if the boat has a mixture of horizontal and vertical orientation to the antennae then it will recieve a reasonably strong signal. When the model is close to the bank this is all pretty academic. But if it is further away or there is other interference it can make the difference between controlling and losing the model. I usually build merchant ships and the aantennae is a mixture of vertical up the foremast, horizontal to the mainmast with the rest arranged inside the superstructure. Sort of belt and braces really!
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cbr900

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2006, 03:53:24 am »

When building my Robbe Sea Wolf they recommended that you measure the spring steel rod supplied in the kit to use as an antennae and cut the same length off your receiver wire and solder together keeping the total length of the aerial wire as it was originally....



Roy
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dougal99

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2006, 11:24:33 am »

Hi All

I have always understood that the aerial should be kept at the total length supplied, from having read a few books on the subject early in my model boat career. Regarding what Colin said about modern equipment being pretty forgiving, I wonder whether this is as critical now as it was, especially at ranges of up to 200M which is about as far as I can see clearly to control my boats.

I have noticed that the aerial length on Futaba and Hitec are markedly different lengths and have always put that down to the circuitry designs used. I have also noticed that some people not only hold their TX aerials vertical when their boats are at a distance but some hold the TX over their heads presumably in the belief that they get extra range. I've not found the need to do this, but hey, if it works for you...

I've yet to fit an additional aerial but with Sentinel on the stocks I will have to bite the bullet.

Cheers

Doug
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DickyD

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2006, 11:52:30 am »


Reading these threads I assume it would be OK for me to cut my antenna wire and insert a spade connector so as to make my superstructure completely removable.

I would of course solder the connections.

Please no technical explanations, a straight forward yes or no will do.

Me brain urts already without having to do any more thinking. :-\

Will one day get this flipping thing on the water. :-[

                              Cheers Richard
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Colin Bishop

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2006, 12:03:10 pm »

YES!  ;)
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DickyD

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2006, 12:06:27 pm »


See that was easy, I could understand that, no problem. Thanks Colin.

                                                         Richard :)
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kikkari

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2006, 09:31:24 pm »

Pretty much everything you didn't need to know about antennas...
Radio and Antennas for Robots
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dougal99

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2006, 09:32:01 am »

Pretty much everything you didn't need to know about antennas...
Radio and Antennas for Robots


And I thought it was simple. Silly me ::)
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DickyD

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2006, 12:31:51 pm »


  Always someone has to spoil it by getting technical

                                                    :( :(
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kikkari

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2006, 12:53:57 pm »

I'll get my (lab)coat....  ::) :D
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neilthebus

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2006, 07:54:01 pm »

Thanks guys.

My head hurts too now.

The antenna wire that came with my Hi-Tec Rx isn't that long so its a bit awkward taking the superstructure off.

Really do appreciate all the advice. :)
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OMK

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2006, 03:30:12 am »

How critical is the length of the antenna wire fitted to the receiver on the boat?

Neilthebus, since you asked about the length of the receiver antenna, let's try to answer your question in easy terms...
First of all, there is a formula to calculating the required length, but it's relatively simple and requiring just a basic level of math knowledge.
Let's assume that your receiver is crystalled for, say, 40.200 MHz. In order to ascertain the antenna length, you simply divide 300 (three-hundred) by the operating frequency. In this case, we're assuming the operating frequency to be 40.2 MHz. So dividing 300 by 40.2 will yield the length of the antenna... in metres. i.e: 7.462 metres. This is the electrical length that your receiver antenna needs to be in order to resonate nicely with your 40.2 MHz frequency (otherwise known as a full-length antenna.). But an antenna at nearly seven-and-a-half metres is waaaaaay too long for practical R/C purposes. So radio designers overcome this by simply calculating their antenna lengths to a division or multiple of the calculated full-wavelength. In other words, if you divide your 7.426 by 2, you effectively end up with a half-length antenna. This again is too long to be practical. So half that figure again... the answer is a quarter-length antenna. And again, this too is an impractical length.
All R/C radio equipment have their antenna lengths calculated and pruned to 1/8 (one-eighth) length. Ergo, your one-eighth-length antenna, resonating at 40.2 MHz, will be 0.933 metres long (or 933 millimetres). You simply divide 300 by your crystal frequency, then divide that answer by 8.
Metric to Imperial?... That's easy too. Just divide 933 by 25.4. This is the same length, only now in inches.

So how come most all brand-name R/C transmitters/receivers use a bog-standard antenna length?... Or why is the antenna length at the transmitter the same for different crystal frequencies? The answer is one of compatibility. i.e: 'twould be hellish for R/C manufacturers to supply a dedicated antenna for each and every crystal frequency. So they exploit the fact that a slightly de-tuned antenna will still work, because the output power from the Tx is relatively small, and the unwanted feedback currents from the mis-matched antenna will cause no harm to the Tx output transistor. The amount of power reaching a mis-matched antenna is still large enough to work over the specified distance as long as that mis-match is not tooooo far off. (Try to avoid powering your Tx with its antenna collapsed.).

Now you're probably wondering.... "But if the above formula is true, it implies that a half-length antenna would effectively have twice the sensitivity, therefore twice the range, over a quarter-length... and FOUR times more than a one-eighth length.".
Good point. But your receiver has a tuned input. This means it will only allow the frequencies of interest to pass (i.e: signals from your Tx), while blocking out those that aren't (i.e: signals from other R/C transmitters, etc.). And although it does a good job, a longer antenna would probably swamp the tuned input. When that happens, you'll likely experience unwanted servo jitter (among other odd behavior).

Experiments on a 35, 40 and 72MHz systems has shown that the range has increased by some 8 - 10% once both ant's. had been pruned to their resonant frequency. So to answer your question - in the case of low-power R/C transmissions - the length is not toooo critical as long as both the Rx and TX lengths are within, say, 10 to 15% of the electrical length of your transmitting frequency. The closer you get them to match, the sweeter it will be. In a nutshell, if you add that thin wire to the outside of your tug, just make sure that the total length is the same as what you started with.


Hope this is of help.
Best regards and happy modelling.
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DickyD

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2006, 09:00:23 am »

Thanks guys.

My head hurts too now.

The antenna wire that came with my Hi-Tec Rx isn't that long so its a bit awkward taking the superstructure off.

Really do appreciate all the advice. :)

I got a simple " yes" answer to my question.
 
What did you do ??

Richard    ::) ::)
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2006, 10:27:38 am »

Sorry PMK but that is nearly right... the reason why different receivers have a different length of antenna is because they are base loaded , they use a coil to shorten the electrical lenth of the antenna even moor , so you have to add the length of the base coil to the length of wire.
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cbr900

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2006, 10:32:59 am »

In other words DICKYD keep your antenae length as it was ans always will be....



Roy
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dougal99

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2006, 10:33:44 am »

Well my aerials are all about the length PMK's calculations arrive at. Anyway the conclusion appears to be keep your aerial at the length provided and you shouldn't go far wrong. (it says here on this piece of paper ;D ;D)

Doug
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2006, 10:36:17 am »

   Quote dougal99

Well my aerials are all about the length PMK's calculations arrive at. Anyway the conclusion appears to be keep your aerial at the length provided and you shouldn't go far wrong. (it says here on this piece of paper  )
 


 Yep thats about it . Peter
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OMK

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Re: antenna length
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2006, 12:29:49 pm »

Sorry PMK but that is nearly right... the reason why different receivers have a different length of antenna is because they are base loaded

So where do you suggest this loading coil resides? Inside the receiver?... external to the receiver?
If you're suggesting it's inside, then where? More to the point... HOW do you suggest to stuffing several feet of antenna inside an already jam-packed Rx enclosure? Even more to the point... WHY? The front-end band-pass filter will normally consist of a couple small coils wound on a ferrite core inside a metal can. A parallel capacitor across the coil will bring it to resonance at the frequency determined by the Tx crystal. So all the coil you'll ever need is already inside the receiver.
In plain money, you need to convey as much of the tiny transmitted signal as possible to that front-end filter. A coiled antenna becomes an inductor. An inductor is resistive. Ergo, a resistive antenna is lossy - it will block some of the valuable signal. You may as well use a length of wet string.
Agreed, the correct ELECTRICAL length must be maintained. But the PHYSICAL length makes all the difference between a workable antenna and a crappy antenna. A coiled antenna - even if external to the receiver - will have a detrimental effect on the overall range. You should never prune, trim, snip, cut, fold it back on itself or coil it up. Pilots of model aircraft usually leave the excess length dangling from the fuselage or the tailplane. Model boat'ers don't have that luxury. But we all know how to overcome this, right?
Perhaps you are coiling your Rx antenna in order to have it fit inside your model?
Perhaps this will explain, as Doug 99 observed, why some modellers are swinging their transmitters above their heads... maybe they're trying to recover some of that lost range.

Do you remember the days of CB radio? Did you ever wonder why CB'ers binned their base-loaded ant's. in favour of anything but?
Are you sure you not confusing your base-loaded coil analogy with that at the transmitting end?
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