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Author Topic: beginner in trouble  (Read 18506 times)

sweed73

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beginner in trouble
« on: February 23, 2009, 07:46:01 pm »

HI i recently bought a 2 channel 27mhz model boat, it was home made and works fine,
i wanted to add some extra channels so i've bought a 4 channel 40mhz transmitter, the model says fm ppm ct2099,Item number: 180326198686
i also bought a 40mhz rx from sunupp available off ebay,Item number: 230323582476
i then bought a pair of crystals channel 695 but i didn't understand about single and dual conversions,Item number: 280304261894
 also the rx has a switch for choosing between futabo and jr
nothing works !!
any help as too where i'm going wrong would be great, keep reading but i can't seem to find a way of proving whats wrong.
cheers
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DickyD

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2009, 08:55:15 pm »

You really need the same make of Tx and Rx both 40AM or both 40FM and then you need a pair of crystals that are compatible with the Tx and the Rx.
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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2009, 08:58:06 pm »


I'm curious about the words  PPM ? It sounds like a mis-match to me.

ken
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stallspeed

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2009, 09:08:26 pm »

Hi Stephen.

Can you say what make the crystals are,where you got them or provide a hyperlink to the supplier.

Can you not contact j40sun,ask him what frequency band he used the transmitter on and also what make of crystals he used for it.

PS a ppm receiver is ok.
 pcm would not have been compatble with the transmitter

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DickyD

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2009, 09:10:07 pm »

Everthing, Rx, Tx, and crystals are all 40FM Ken.

They are all on Ebay using his reference numbers.
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sweed73

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2009, 09:16:10 pm »

is there anything i might need to do to " initialise "? the transmitter after the batteries have been removed, some sort of fail safe ?
or could the crystals not be single as it doesn't say.
is there any easy way to check if a transmitter is transmitting, the same with the reciever ?
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stallspeed

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2009, 09:18:22 pm »

Nope!
Need more info on the crystals to at least get the receiver on track.
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sweed73

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2009, 09:23:35 pm »

the item number is 280304261894 on ebay uk
i'll try and contact the seller of the tx and see what make he used.
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stallspeed

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2009, 09:27:34 pm »

So you are saying your 695 crystals came with your transmitter or what?
You need to know if the receiver crystals are s-conv or dual conv but you also need to know what radios work with the crystals.

ps
ok found the listing
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sweed73

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2009, 09:31:37 pm »

the radio came with no crystals, i bought the crystals off ebay, they don't say single or dual, i wasn't aware of the difference at the time.
i cant seem to find the make of a crystal that people use with that radio.
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stallspeed

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2009, 09:45:49 pm »

The receiver is a good'un because you can switch to pos or negative shift to pick up your both types of transmitter.

The single/dual receiverissue you sussed correctly but the transmitter crystal has to match the handset as well.

If the crystals are dual converson they should be ok either way.I can't guess from any related equipment from your crystal vendor.
That is another query for you to ask.

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red181

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2009, 12:17:09 am »

Hi, you are going to have a problem with that transmitter. PPM is a pulse modulation, generally found with rc planes, and helicopters. THe rx looks like its compatable, however, as stated by the ebay seller, he was using it with a rc helicopter. On such, the throttle stick has no self centring action, ( assuming its also a mode 2, uk spec, throttle on the left stick) with a rc helicopter, you have to be able to maintain throttle (headspeed) without needing constant pressure on the stick, so essentailly you can take your hand off the stick and it stays there. With a rc boat or car, the throttle needs to self centre, take your hand off the stick, it returns to centre (and stops!)

Generally, they also have a ratchet effect on the throttle stick. It should work, and some may come back and say it does not matter, but if you inadvertantly knock that stick, off goes the boat! I would not use it, it didnt cost you much, so put it down to a bad experience. Now, in the pic of the tx both sticks are central, he has taken a very clever picture!! If both stick have self centring he could not have been using it for a helicopter, as the  heli gyro will not set unless the stick is all the way down, its a safety thing, so the blades dont start spinning when your face is next to them  :}
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w3bby

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2009, 01:16:23 am »

The problem as I see it, if you are in the UK and the seller is as well then the transmitter should not be a 40mhz set if it was used for a helicopter. 40 Mhz is reserved for surface use http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/system/files/frequencies_GBR.pdf. A radio for aircraft use is 35Mhz.
You need to check the band for the transmitter.

Peter Fitness

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2009, 03:17:51 am »

With a rc boat or car, the throttle needs to self centre, take your hand off the stick, it returns to centre (and stops!)

Why?  :o All of my boat transmitters have ratcheting throttle sticks, I think it's much easier than keeping a constant pressure on the stick. It comes down to personal preference.

Peter.
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Martin (Admin)

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2009, 08:02:04 am »

Silly question, you have swapped the the Tx and Rx crystals around to check they are not marked the
wrong way round?

Dual conversion means that it's requires a special crystal if it's a dual conversion receiver ( my Hitec Laser 40Mhz set
used dual convention crystals in the receiver, normal, signal convention crystals don't work ).


The short answer may be to arrange to meet up with the local club or another modeller with 40Mhz radio and ask
him if he could help you sort out what's not compatible / not working.

Test 1: Ask if he can test your crystals.
Test 2: Ask if he can test your receiver with his crystals.
Test 3: Can he test your receiver with your crystals
Test 4: Can you test your Transmitter with your crystals.

It would be best if he could bring a spare set of radio rather than strip down his working boat.
... bring a bottle of wine or beer as payment!  :-))
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w3bby

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2009, 09:11:00 am »

I'm going to say it again before it gets lost....

Before doing anything else

CHECK THE BAND!! If the Tx was used in a helicopter it should be 35Mhz not 40Mhz.

DickyD

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2009, 09:20:56 am »

Well spotted Ian, the seller said it was a spare Tx for his Helicopter so it wont be 40Mhz but 35Mhz.

Will not work in a month of Sundays. :-))
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omra85

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2009, 01:29:13 pm »

1. The transmitter is a cheap make of the type used with the "colco Lama 5 helicopter". It may be a short range and I wouldn't trust what frequency it is transmitting!
Bin it and put it down to experience - unless your model is only worth a few quid, in which case it won't matter.
2. The receiver is a 40Mhz (probably single conversion) FM version. It should be fine with Futaba crystals (Hitec can be funny sometimes)
3.  The crystals are neither Futaba, Hitec or JR, the seller is selling loads of different frequencies so could easily have mixed them up before labelling. They may even be poorly made copies. Don't trust them (reason as 1.)

Go to Howes (or similar) and get a known make of Tx on 40Mhz with a Tx Rx pair of the same make crystals. Put the Rx crystal in your Rx and try it. If it doesn't work then, you may have to get another Rx.  It's always best to get the Tx, Rx and crystals as a set. Saves a lot of hassle in the long run.

Danny
Ah - the joys of Ebay!
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sweed73

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2009, 03:50:16 pm »

Hi, the tx has a 40 mhz sticker on it , is there a way of making sure that it is 40mhz internally, i have ordered a set of 40mhz crystals from the same handset from someone, cost £5 they will be here  tomorrow , there's a shop near me where they've said i can take the radio and rx in and they'll check em out, i am ok to use 40mhz as its a boat this is correct?
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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2009, 04:04:20 pm »

Yes, 40Mhz is designated surface use (Land & Sea) in the UK.
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stallspeed

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2009, 04:36:59 pm »

The receiver is a good'un because you can switch to pos or negative shift to pick up your both types of transmitter.

The single/dual receiverissue you sussed correctly but the transmitter crystal has to match the handset as well.

If the crystals are dual converson they should be ok either way.I can't guess from any related equipment from your crystal vendor.
That is another query for you to ask.


I'm afraid you have probably got another pair of single coversion crystals and they won't work with that receiver.

Your transmitter is either negative shift (system used by Futaba,Hitec,Fleet) and positve shift (JR,Sanwa) and the vendor of the 695 crystals or transmitter could have answered that.
I think you have a more than 50/50 chance of them being ok with the transmitter i.e. both transmitter and crystal pair being -ve shift.

Your receiver manually switches between negative shift (system used by Futaba,Hitec,Fleet) and positve shift (JR,Sanwa) but it is narrow band and requires the crystals to be a close match (10 ppm/0C) suitable for dual conversion.
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sweed73

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2009, 05:04:40 pm »

just run it by me again, the reciever is i believe suppossed to be single conversion, manually selectable jr or futaba, therefore the problem i believe is getting a crystal to work with the transmitter, by ordering a crystal set which has come from this type of transmitter do i not at least stand half a chance of it working the problem being if it works with the rx, which hopefully it will. does the tolerance only affect the system if its dual ? am i right that the rx can be only be dual or single , one or the other, but the transmitter will work on both crystals.
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stallspeed

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2009, 05:15:41 pm »



You have a dual conv receiver selectable for JR or Futaba
You need dual conversion crystals which are more expensive and the transmitter crystal has to suit the transmitter (pos(JR/Sanwa) or neg shift(Futaba/Hitec))

Quote
Dual Conversion
    A type of receiver that converts the incoming frequency through two intermediate stages. This tends to eliminate the type of interference known as "image". With high-precision components, it also allows the receiver to be much more precise in selecting the incoming channel it accepts. This is what helps the receiver to be very narrow-band.
from http://www.futaba-rc.com/glossary.html#d

Quote
What means "positive or negative shift" for a reciever. On English web sites, I can read receiver for FUTABA/HITEC or Airtronics/JR, is it very important? Which receiver I need for A Sanwa transmitter?


There's no difference on "positive or negative shift" for a receiver. People in France usuall use 41 MHZ. There will be no influence either positive or negative shift. Unless you use 72 MHZ or 29 MHZ, the Futaba/Hitec will be negative shift, the JR/ Sanwa(Airtronics) will be positive shift. As long as you use the receiver in PPM mode, that could be compatible with Sanwa transmitter.
from http://www.gws.com.tw/english/service/faq/e_faq.htm
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sweed73

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Re: beginner in trouble
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2009, 05:25:34 pm »

i thought the dual conversion relates to the way the signal is processed, not the fact they have a selector switch, the info i have on the rx is that its a single conversion rx,
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=943803
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