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[tigertiger]

The thread about boating becoming an old mans hobby begs another thread as to

What can we do about it?

I have just put down a few thoughts to outline some of the problems, then hopefully someone will shoot me down with some good ideas.
I hope that posters on this thread can highlight many issues :), propose new ideas , find flaws with the suggestions , and find a few pragmatic solutions .

-------------------------------

Local clubs are one platform, but unless you happen to walk past the lake when the are operating it is hard to know they exist.
For example I have spent a lot of time in Llanberis and have never seen a boat there, I obviiously have not been to the lakeside at the same time as Stavros and The Welsh Druid.
But what can clubs do to promote themselves with a limited/ or no budget.

Also what would be a safe environmnet to promote the sport/hobby?
There is the child protection issue, to consider. Some people sadly do see middle aged men with 'toys' as a potential threat.
I sit next to the lake where I live (in China) and have little old ladies, and kids come up to see what I am doing and say hello, and nobody thinks anything of it. Sadley in the UK someone would point a finger.

The exhibitions are good, but usually it is only the converted who get to here about them?
What other platforms are there. ???

[RickF]

I think there are two sides to this hobby, which for the sake of discussion (I nearly said argument, but thought better of it) I will call building and sailing. Modellers therefore fall into one of three categories: Predominantly builders, predominantly sailors, or builders and sailors. Each one has their own motivation, aspirations and requirements.

Builders (like myself) lock themselves away in their workshops, shunning sunlight and human contact, occasionally making a foray to a stretch of water to calibrate the plimsol line on their latest creation.

Sailors frequent model shops, buy easybuild kit or RTS plastic boats and head for the nearest pond on a Sunday morning.

The third category are gregarious creatures, who join clubs and spend hours by the lake discussing and showing off their models.

So, how does this affect how new blood can be attracted to the hobby? I am no expert but I have been involved in other organisations that have been engaged in recruiting drives. The primary factors are interest and easy access. To this end, we should concentrate on attracting sailors. Once hooked, they may become builders too, but no-one is going to start in this hobby with a year-long building project - they almost certainly want to get on the water.

In my opinion it is only the clubs that are in a position to do this. I'm on dangerous ground here, as for various reasons I'm not a "club man", but I'm sure this is the only practical, organised way of getting the message across.

How that message is presented will be down to the individuals, but I would repeat that generating interest and providing easy access must be paramount.

Rick

[chromedome]

The sailors first idea is very interesting.

[Welsh_Druid]

Local clubs are one platform, but unless you happen to walk past the lake when the are operating it is hard to know they exist.
For example I have spent a lot of time in Llanberis and have never seen a boat there, I obviously have not been to the lakeside at the same time as Stavros and The Welsh Druid.
But what can clubs do to promote themselves with a limited/ or no budget.

A very fair comment Tiger. At Llanberis we operate from a slipway off the public car park by the lake. As this is publicly owned we cannot put up any signs or advertising material to attract people. In any case the local vandals would soon dispose of them - you only have to see what they have done to the children's playground and the car park ticket machine ( actually to our benefit as we no longer have to pay to park  )

We are only there as a group on Sundays although we can, and do, sail independently at any other time, so any new members come from people seeing us there on Sundays or from personal contacts. Recent new members have all come from people seeing us at the lake. 

We do encourage anybody stopping to look to try their hand.  Only yesterday we had a couple who did this a few weeks ago, return  -  they had even been to the International Boat Show the day before and bought their first kit - to their delight they were handed a TX and left to enjoy one of my boats whilst I sailed another  :) -

With our nearest model shop almost 70 miles away advertising there is no use I'm afraid.

If ever you come to Llanberis again Tiger let us know and we will make you (and anybody else holidaying in Snowdonia ) very welcome'

Don B

[zetec]

Start them young is the only way. Look at the car race scene and you will get the idea. I'm afraid that most youngsters are only interested in fast models. I take my son 6 and daughter 9 to a local park lake in the summer. They have a go of my fast(ish) patrol boat but would get bored stiff if it was just a scale speed tug or fishing boat, not knocking either... just the way it is.

If a club is really keen to get new blood in why not advertise a "open day". Better still build 5 or 6 "speed 400" style boats and offer a few easy no hassle races for the youngsters, no fee and perhaps a £5 trophy for the winner. This way you might get 2 or 3 kids and I bet a few dads will show interest. Even if you only get 1 or 2 each event to start it will at least mean the average club will maintain its numbers.

Look at the other forms of modeling that have taken off big time in the last few years...A little competition is always good. How about a challenge for the fastest straight line boat built using a set motor and battery? even offer to supply the battery on the day if they buy the motor cheap (£5) and with a little effort they could be on the water for £15. Little advert in the local paper (play on the "offering kids an interest" theme and get it for free!) or a few posters in the local area/park. Make it cheap and easy for people to get started and most of all FUN.

No grumpy moans when they crash or don't do things right first time or their dog starts going for a swim. if you are concerned your prize model will get damaged then sail another day. Take interest even if their offerings are not to show standard. Set up a refreshment stand so that people can stand and have a cuppa and watch the boats for five mins.

Drag along a few sons and daughters so it doesn't look like just an adults hobby...

[warbird]

Builders (like myself) lock themselves away in their workshops, shunning sunlight and human contact, occasionally making a foray to a stretch of water to calibrate the plimsol line on their latest creation.

Sailors frequent model shops, buy easybuild kit or RTS plastic boats and head for the nearest pond on a Sunday morning.

The third category are gregarious creatures, who join clubs and spend hours by the lake discussing and showing off their models.

 I think you, unintentionally, are doing the Sail’ers down, Having built & sailed model boats for a number of years I would now put myself into the Sail’ers camp as I have very little time for building these days (I’ve had very little time for sailing these last few years too!) but I have had great pleasure in sailing my boats in a scale like manner. I think all the ready built boats I have bought in the past have allowed the ‘Builder’ of the model to charge me a fair price for a well-finished model AND given them the funds to go & build more models. (after all, to get maybe more than you paid for the kit & having had the enjoyment of building it can’t be bad!) Not all model builders want to sail their models, they get their pleasure from building not sailing. I, on the other hand, get my enjoyment from sailing rather than building. In the past, I have seen some fantastic scale models at shows only to be let down when the builder put them on the water!
So please don’t think all us Sail’ers go out & buy RTR plastic ‘Ships’ most of us keep the builders Building while they in turn keep us Sail’ers Sailing…………
Cheers All……………..

[Stavros]

Well said Welsh Druid you beat me to it!

[Bartapuss]

If you want fresh blood, just murder anyone you find at the pond side

[RickF]

Oh dear, guilty of the sin of not taking myself seriously enough.

Well, Warbird, it was never my intention to do anyone down, either intentionally or unintentionally. However, if you ignore the light-hearted definitions I gave of the different classes of modellers, I think you will see that what I am describing is exactly what you write:

Not all model builders want to sail their models, they get their pleasure from building not sailing. I, on the other hand, get my enjoyment from sailing rather than building.

However, whether we are builders or sailors, we are still left with the question posed earlier - how to attract new people to boat modelling - and I think Zetec and Don have the right answer.

Rick

[Doc]

I've found that before I try something new I usually do some thinking about it first.  If the idea really interests me, I will find a way to get into it, or do it.  Those things that seem like a fun thing but I have some sort of hesitation about, or that I can "take it or leave it", I don't do a lot of looking to find the door to.  Some, sure, but not a lot.
I've also found (with other hobbies) that 'attracting' new people isn't the 'best' idea to start with.  It gets really crowded, etc, etc.  The 'entrance requirements' sort of deteriorate, if that makes sense.  The easier it is to do, the less likely I am to stay with it, sort of (depends on what it is though naturally!).
Being naturally sceptical/cynical/dumb, I tend to steer away from dedicated, no holds barred, "Membership Drives".  To me, they all seem to want to get there hands in my pockets, for one reason or another, and I only have room for my hands in my pockets, for whatever reasons... Sweety.
 - 'Doc

[peewee]

I try to do my bit by taking potentially interested people with me to my club lake & letting them have a go with my boats (closing my eyes when they head for the buoys).

My website is an attempt at making the world of restoring old wooden model kits accessible to people & help them have the confidence to get started in the hobby - with links, tips and videos to whet the appetite .

I seem to have got a few people going which was the idea (plus it is really fun to do).

Pete  :)

[Oddy-B]

Start them young is the only way. Look at the car race scene and you will get the idea. I'm afraid that most youngsters are only interested in fast models. I take my son 6 and daughter 9 to a local park lake in the summer. They have a go of my fast(ish) patrol boat but would get bored stiff if it was just a scale speed tug or fishing boat, not knocking either... just the way it is.

If a club is really keen to get new blood in why not advertise a "open day". Better still build 5 or 6 "speed 400" style boats and offer a few easy no hassle races for the youngsters, no fee and perhaps a £5 trophy for the winner. This way you might get 2 or 3 kids and I bet a few dads will show interest. Even if you only get 1 or 2 each event to start it will at least mean the average club will maintain its numbers.

Look at the other forms of modeling that have taken off big time in the last few years...A little competition is always good. How about a challenge for the fastest straight line boat built using a set motor and battery? even offer to supply the battery on the day if they buy the motor cheap (£5) and with a little effort they could be on the water for £15. Little advert in the local paper (play on the "offering kids an interest" theme and get it for free!) or a few posters in the local area/park. Make it cheap and easy for people to get started and most of all FUN.

No grumpy moans when they crash or don't do things right first time or their dog starts going for a swim. if you are concerned your prize model will get damaged then sail another day. Take interest even if their offerings are not to show standard. Set up a refreshment stand so that people can stand and have a cuppa and watch the boats for five mins.

Drag along a few sons and daughters so it doesn't look like just an adults hobby...

now this too me is a good idea
 I dont belong to a club and undecided whether to join one, but if the clubs are to survive then they really must promote the attractiveness of model boats.

[OMK]

Fresh blood? Nah - it has to be IN the blood already. If it ain't in the blood you're flogging a dead horse.
Fact is, kids are too busy doing what most all of us were doing at their age anyway. And if they're ever inclined, they'll get into this - and few million other hobbies - when they're good and ready.
YOU did. Why worry?
Tiger. T has started a neat thread. If he hadn't it wouldn't have insipred Don B's response: "If ever you come to Llanberis again Tiger let us know and we will make you (and anybody else holidaying in Snowdonia ) very welcome'".
Ah!... that's better. Generosity and hospitality.

Sounds like Snowdonia is the place to be, then. They've got good hospitality... good boating waters... pubs... gorgeous wimmin... Stavros...
And since most of us here are past thirty anyway, I reckon - as spooky as it sounds - that maybe we ARE the new blood.
Kids in non-kid bodies.

Moderated

[tigertiger]

Going on from what PMK just said.

Fresh blood doesn't always mean kids.
There are a lot of 20-30-40-50 somethings to be attracted.

Sorry if I just offended the 60 somethings.

[rats]

 Excellent website Peewee ! Can those old boats be run on fast electrics as well as IC - or are they too heavy ?
   

[flag-d]

Now its my turn...

I think that most posters so far have been right.  I fully agree with Zetec.  I have 2 boys (11 and 13) and they like excitement.  To them, watching a beautifully built tug, sedately and expertly towing a barge is like watching paint dry.  They want white water, noise and spray: speed essentially.  I have a MTB which they very occasionally show interest in (oh, doesn't it fire anything?).  I also have a couple of electric buggies which they love...because they're, and I'm quoting here, 'not boring'.  However, I think that speed and excitement is only half the story.  The other half is time.  I was more than happy to spend a year of evenings and the occasional weekend constructing my pride and joy MTB.  Getting the average kid to concentrate for more than 10 minutes at a time is a virtually impossible feat!  As I've said, I have 2 electric buggies, both kits from Tamiya.  They took 2-3 hours to assemble, each.  The kids, both, were fascinated.  No glue was involved, just screws and nuts and bolts.  They could see that in a couple of hours, they'd be finished: the sort of time frame they can understand and cope with, as opposed to several months away from finishing.  From a building point of view, there seem to be either the full kit (ages to build and still needs rx, servos, linkages, batteries etc. once the box is empty) or the RTR which is usually slow, easily broken and on the same frequency as every other one!  To get kids involved, someone needs to provide a Tamiya-type-electric-car boat kit: bolt together and screw together without glue, everything, and I mean everything, you need in the box.  Also, once finished, it needs to be fast and look good without being too delicate.  Additionally, it needs to be able to be upgraded: racing props, faster motors, ball raced gear box, trim tabs etc.  This type of kit just doesn't seem to exist and I'm sure that with a little thought, they could be on shelves quite quickly.  What would you get in this mythical kit then?

Sport boat type fast planing hull, 1 piece moulding
Suitable deck/cock-pit/hatch etc.
Accessory kit: windscreen, cockpit details, lights, ski-pole etc
Outboard or Z type drive, nothing assembled, all there, ready to be built, including 540 type motor
Battery box
Radio box
Servo
Steering linkage
Drive battery
rx - proper, 27MHz, Futaba/Acoms etc
tx - proper, 27MHz, Futaba/Acoms etc
Drive battery charger
No glueing required
No soldering required
Provide an Allen key if need be, otherwise all the builder needs is a modelling knife, side cutters and a Pozi-drive screwdriver

Design it so that, ignoring painting, it will take around 2-3 hours to build, just long enough to charge up the nicad pack with the charger that came in the box.  By Christmas afternoon, everyone is down at the lake, blasting around in their (unpainted) speed boats.  By February of course, some boats have sunk, some boats have broken and some owners have got bored...but some have got hooked, along with their mates and will stay so for years to come.

Of course, another problem to overcome is where to sail one's boat?  I'm lucky, I can pop down to my lake which is 10 minutes away.  Though it is salt water, it has all round concrete access and free parking all of 2 yards from the water's edge.  Many, many more of you have to spend an hour in the car to get there before you can launch your pride and joy.  The great advantage of an electric car is that you can drive it around the lounge the moment you finish it.  Even so, a bolt and screw together, cool looking model kit, not a toy, with gear boxes and other mechanics in it which results in an impressively fast model, I think would be a winner.  But then I would think that, it was my idea!

Mike

[ambernblu]

What an excellent idea, Mike - I wonder which manufacturer would take up the challenge then....? Sounds like a winner to me - and a way of combatting these abysmal RTR boats that we've heard have the potential to cause so much grief....  >:(

I would only want to add one thing extra to that carefully thought out and comprehensive specification - an assortment of peel-off, gaudily coloured, sticky backed ( ) plastic flashes/names etc., etc. (or whatever you want to call 'em!) sufficient for say 2 or 3 different boats, that would have the effect of negating the need for painting, but would avoid that plain presentation on the water and thus add to the perceived and anticipated adrenalin rush!! Absolutely spiffing wot? 

[flag-d]

Good idea.  Many electric buggy models come with a clear plastic body shell (polycarbonate/lexan type) and a sheaf of decals/stickers which almost completely cover it!

Mike

[tonyH]

Mike is spot on. If the answer were to be pure RTR could someone explain to me why so many 10-20 year olds are quite content to spend so much time and money on their armies for Warhammer, or Losi etc. adds-on to their radio cars.

And also we need to actually ask the question because surely within the current forum there is at least one under, say, 40

Tony

[Shipmate60]

The way we (The South SWA) use to attract new blood is to display and sail at different venues.
We go to Explosions Museum, the Historic Portsmouth Dockyard etc.
It is surprising the amount of interest these venues generate. It gets us and our models out of the purist modelling loop.
I do like the idea about the easy fit models too.
But with newcomers comming to the pondside to keep their interest you have to let them sail their models, or mine. So be prepared for some who don't know the "etiquette" of radio, etc.
A little patience goes a long way too!!!

Bob

[peewee]

Excellent website Peewee ! Can those old boats be run on fast electrics as well as IC - or are they too heavy ?
   

Thanks for the feedback - glad you liked the site. I think that these boats are generally run on electric - I just prefer IC and am lucky enough to have somewhere to use it. When all is done, I don't think that there is much difference in cost (if you by a vintage engine) and they will run fast for a long time.

I'm not really an expert in electrics - as I don't have any of these boats.

[flag-d]

Shipmate60: Now there's a sensible idea.  Getting out and about and showing the general public, many of whom may already be flyers and drivers, what model boats are all about.  Where I sail, I'm almost in the town centre, so quite a few people pass by and most will stop and chat and I'm always happy to do so.  But many other boating venues, not all, but many, are somewhat out of the way, so oftentimes it is only 'those in the know' that will go and watch.  I guess that this is in part due to the general dearth of boating lakes these days (oftentimes? dearth?  I seem to have got a bit 18th century suddenly!  I'm not that old!).  However, last summer at the Weymouth show, in front of The Pavilion there was a temporary 'pond', admittedly not very large, on which various models sailed all day.  I have no odea how much something like that would cost to rent, then fill and so on, but I'm sure it wouldn't be too much.  How about model boat clubs using such a thing at their local town fete or Mayor's Show, usually held in the summer in some local park or whatever.  I've certainly seen the r/c car fraternity showing off their stuff at such shows, so what about boats, static and working with such a temporary 'pond'?  Why not tie up with a local Good Cause, eg Lifeboats/Coast Guard or anyone else for that matter to reduce, or completely negate, stand costs?  The boats and pond would attract the visitors to the Good Cause, who'd benefit from donations and the club would gain some free and good publicity, maybe even a new member, certainly several prospectives and 1 or 2 of those might even make it as far as the boating lake the following weekend!

Oh dear, look at that!  Another load of old waffle.  I'll pipe down now, TTFN

Mike

[philk]

just a quick note to follow the thread so far.
we at the cygnets have some interesting methods of attracting new members that seem to work
the first is that our water is in the towns main park and A LOT of people walk by every time we sail so we get lots of interest that way.
the second and possibly best way is that we managed to tie ourselves into a newish model show in our area. it is held at a venue which in itself is a massive draw to the public. this has built up to a big show and this year we had nearly 11000 paying visitors through the gate. at present not many of these are active model boaters but a large proportion of them are general members of the public that are just coming along out of interest. we are already starting to convert the flyers into boats and since the show in september we have had 17 or 18 new members a lot of which can be linked to the show.
the third one for is a new idea we are doing for next year. we are going to have a float at the local carnival, not only to promote the show but to promote the clubs involved including ourselves. after the carnival goes throught the town the organisors have a show type event on the town castle lawn. we will be having a stand there by the river where we can run boats up and down the river, also coming along to this will be the involved flying club, the car club and the tank club which do the show and the cars and tanks will be running also.
this carnival has up to 25000 visitors every year so hopefully results will be positive.
with a membership at present of 144 we must be doing something right.

phil (cygnetsmbc)

[Shipmate60]

When talking to non-model boaters the main drawback seems to be all the detail.
Most people can recognise the time this takes, so I keep a few not so well detailed or finished models for these events. Just to show that not every model IS perfect, and to let some go away thinking " I can do better that THAT" and he is displaying that model.
There are still the ex-Airfix modellers about, but I do wonder where the next generation will come from.

Bob

[ambernblu]

There are still the ex-Airfix modellers about, but I do wonder where the next generation will come from.
Bob

Bob, (nice to see you back by the way  )

Its funny you should say that.... I just picked this up off another modelling site, referring to the Hornby purchase of Airfix and Humbrol... this is some of the Aberdeen Evening Express' take on it, entitled 'Airfix and Hornby - the new Axis of Evil'

With one fell swoop another generation of children is condemned to boxes of fiddly plastic bits, pots of glue with which to stick themselves to the cat and battleship grey paint that will stay under their fingernails until puberty makes girls more interesting than Messerschmitts. Said paint remnants will also foil first fumblings with said girls, if memory serves. Still, it's all for the best. Those nice folk at Airfix get to keep their jobs. And it keeps the anoraks in their attics out of harm's way in the modern world."

Hmmmmm!  >:(