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[Le Caux Deux]

Are competitive scale sailing events dying out, Their is about 25 model boat clubs in the North of England yet how many MPBA qualifying regattas are their.

The number of clubs stays roughly the same but each year the number of inter-club or national events gets less. We go to the trouble of building beautiful fully functioning boats, but then, what do we do with them. Surely its better to have an element of competitiveness about how our boats perform on the water then it is for them to sit in their display cabinets never to be let out and have fun.

I know travel is expensive and no-one expects people to attend every event, but scale sailing events that encourage competition, even between clubs, can be entertaining and rewarding and by publicising these events can only help to encourage more people to join our hobby

Mike

[gingyer]

I think you will find the majority of modelers can't be bothered with these competitons

the competitions that seem to be taking off are simple and fun, or have people who are really dedicated to it (tug towing)

If you still want these competitions then you need to see how to make them attractive to people to take part

Colin

[nemesis]

Hi Mike, I see from your post that you are new to this hobby of ours. It is understandable that people get sick of competition, with models getting smaller & smaller, modellers who do not make the model, judges, bless their cotton socks, who do not know what they are about, the list goes on & on. I think you may have opened a hornets nest with your posting. This post is my opinion. Nemesis

[Colin Bishop]

This subject was discussed at some length a couple of years ago, see one of the topics here: http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=14505.0

There are certainly a lot fewer competitive events as there used to be which I think is a bit of a shame really. I haven't run my boats very often this year largely because I quickly get bored just running around in circles on an open lake, it's much more fun if there is a decent course on offer, even if it is not necessarily part of a competition.

It was demonstrated back in the 1970s that you can design steering courses which treat large and small boats in a very similar way but the lessons learned seem to have been largely lost over the years. Nemesis is however correct in giving some other reasons for the lack of interest in competitions. People are certainly less willing to travel than they used to be, increasing costs, traffic conditions and the advancing age profile of the boat modelling community all have something to do with it.

The other problem lies with static judging. In days of yore modellers could be assumed to have built their boat thenselves, either from scratch or from a kit or semi kit. These days the boats you see on the pond could simply have been bought off EBay or are RTR models both of which rather screw up any existing judging rule structures.

As for the standard of of judging, that is simply down to the organisers choosing the right people and not some local worthy who just 'loved the teddy bear steering the Victorian Steam Launch'.

I think it is also true to say that people these days are less willing (more afraid?!) to subject their work to the examination of their peers than they used to be and that is perhaps an attitude of mind and maybe not an altogether healthy one.

Colin

[barriew]

I belong to a club that doesn't have any competitions and that suits me just fine. I build my boats for my enjoyment, not to meet some 'rules' and so have only ever entered one competition - and that only to help out the organisers. (I think I won 3rd in kit class)

I do agree with Colin that a few buoys on the water make sailing more interesting, and our water has a couple of posts sticking out of the water, so that adds interest

The MPBA recognised the declining interest in competitive sailing, and introduced a new section in 2009 - Non-competitive Section - for people  who just want an excuse to get together and maybe try a fun steering course. They arrange a number of non-competitive meetings at various clubs, often coinciding with a club's Open Day.

Barrie

[Le Caux Deux]

I think you will find the majority of modelers can't be bothered with these competitons

the competitions that seem to be taking off are simple and fun, or have people who are really dedicated to it (tug towing)

If you still want these competitions then you need to see how to make them attractive to people to take part

Colin

I agree we need to make these competitions more attractive - but how do we do that unless people are prepared to put some effort into making them more attractive. That was one of the reasons I started this subject.

I would have thought that to qualify as a 'Model Boat' it had to sail on water, otherwise it's a static model. And that it's ability on the water compared to other models, and it's larger brethren, should be one of the prime considerations when judging a model.

Take one example of a popular class of boat to build - the Life Boat. Their are some beautiful models of this class of boat probably at every club in the country, shouldn't one of the primary elements in judging these boats be about their ability to negotiate a course at a scale steering event.

One other reason to hold scale steering events should also be to encourage those of us who perhaps are not as skilled at the 'scale' building but can still build a highly manoeuvrable working model that performs well on the water. It is people like us who can feel overawed by the quality of some of the boats displayed but could hold our own on the course.

Mike

[knoby]

Scale steering competitions are without doubt much rarer than they used to be. Back in the 70's & early 80's my father & myself spent most weekends of the summer at open scale regattas, the only real problem was choosing which ones to attend. each year there were certain regattas that were not to be missed & the organisers had plenty of experience to draw on to make the events great fun & as fair as was possible.

However, there always have been issues with scale steering competitions & as the models & technologies have advanced, these have become greater than ever. It is impossible to design a competition that allows a modern harbour tug with steerable Kort's & a bow thruster to compete on equal footing with a 6 ft model of the titanic that has a 20 ft turning circle. therefore it was inevitable that scale steering competitions would eventually breed models specifically designed to take on the courses. This in turn lead to 'mumblings ' among the competitors about how fair the competitions are.& eventually falling numbers of people attending the events.

To stage an open event takes a huge amount of effort on the part of the organising club, or more specifically, the few individuals in that club that actually do the work. To design a good course, a fair scoring system. a running order that doesn't give frequency clashes, & actually pull it off is a major undertaking, &, in my experience, was only ever achieved regularly by a very few talented people. So i can understand why they gave up when the events received a lot of 'flack' for being unfair or bias towards certain models ( or competitors).

I am with Colin, in that I also find just sailing up & down the lake a little boring & like the challenge of putting my models on a course. the problem is with such a diverse spectrum of models, it was never going to be that fair a competition. I was happy to enter the regattas knowing this, as has been said, you read the rules & you accept them or you don't.

As far as boats that don't get sailed debate goes, I think the models should either be static or working. If the are static then judge them on the table, if they are working them judge them on the water, its always been that simple to me.

Just my thoughts, i know this is one subject there is no right or wrong answer too, everybody has a different & correct opinion on it.

cheers Glenn

[Le Caux Deux]

Thanks Glen for your input

I'm sure that if people could organise good events in the 70/80s then with the better communications like email, the internet, mobile phones and forums like this we should be able to organise better events now.

I also understand your point about the abilities of different boats, but one can classify boats by size/manoeuvrability, and design a course that has sections for models of different sizes/abilities.

Mike

[Colin Bishop]

Some very valid points in the above posts. I don't think we will ever go back to the 70s/80s for the reasons given, and of course the average age of competitors then was much younger so people were more inclined to be competitive. I suppose now that many of us are in possession of bus passes, going around in circles is the logical limit to our ambitions.....

Glenn is dead right that the old first class MPBA regattas took a huge amount of effort to stage successfully and I rather doubt if those heights will ever be scaled again. However, much of the organisational effort went into the judging process and you needed a lot of manpower for that at a large event with a course judge needed for every boat on the water simultaneously of which there could be half a dozen or more.

Modern equipment and models of modern prototypes mean that many model boats are more manoeuvrable than ever before and that does cause serious issues for designing steering courses which are fair to all. Probably the current MPBA rules are as good as you are going to get as they have evolved over the years. Staging one of these events is still a big commitment on the part of the host club though.

With regard to free sailing, it does seem to me a bit of a shame that models with bow thrusters, korts and other devices are unable to demonstrate their versatility except by pirouetting around in open water which doesn't show them off to best advantage. Maybe one solution would be to have challenging steering courses with interesting obstacles and docks etc. but dispense with the competitive element and just use the course for free sailing only. This would cut out the manpower and organisational overheads but still allow boaters to demonstrate the performance of their models and have some fun as well. Maybe something to consider for the 2011 Mayhem gathering perhaps.

With regard to competitive activity, the UK was once a major force in Scale International Model Boating through participation in NAVIGA and to gain a place on the British Team you had to be very good indeed. These days the UK doesn’t even enter the NAVIGA C Class at all which is a dreadful comedown from past glories.

Colin

[barriew]

. Maybe one solution would be to have challenging steering courses with interesting obstacles and docks etc. but dispense with the competitive element and just use the course for free sailing only. This would cut out the manpower and organisational overheads but still allow boaters to demonstrate the performance of their models and have some fun as well.
Colin

As I understand it, this is the object of  the non-competitive MPBA section. One problem we had at my previous club was that we shared the water with an angling club who objected to us leaving out any buoys, which meant if we wanted them to sail around each week, they had to be set out each week. Not very practical. Of course there is the other problem of vandalism if they could be left out.

Barrie

[gingyer]

may be a topic for another thread but
1 thing always gets brought up in these types of threads and that is the age of the average modeler and what happened in the
70/80's
I am 30 years old and in the "younger" end of our clubs age group with only about 6 younger than me  

the question is how do we encourage new modelers to the hobby and get involved in simple steering and docking comps

this may be the start of getting people involved in these types of competitions

[Colin Bishop]

As I understand it, this is the object of  the non-competitive MPBA section.

Yes, although I don't think they are specific with regards to recommending courses etc., just having an organised good time.

I doubt if many clubs would be in the situation where obstacles, buoys and docks etc. can be left out, unless their waters are on fenced off private land so you have to have stuff that can be easily deployed when required (and somewhere to store it). This is not unduly difficult with a bit of ingenuity and there have been some fairly recent posts on the subject. At Berrylands back in the 70s we ran our events in the local Lido swimming pool and the various buoys and other obstacles were attached to weighted lines strung across the pool. The ends of the lines were attached to short lengths of scaffold pole which rested in the moulded handrail around the pool at water level. Everything could be adjusted very precisely by moving the poles along the handrail or winding in the line on one side and letting it out on the other. It worked a treat for many years and just took a few minutes to retrieve at the end of the event. We used to design different courses by laying out the obstacles in a local field and using their positions to work out where the balanced weighted mooring lines needed to be attached to the main underwater lines to keep everything in the required relative positions. If a model pushed an obstacle out of position the weight on the vertical mooring line would bring it back to where it was supposed to be.

Colin

[Le Caux Deux]

may be a topic for another thread but
1 thing always gets brought up in these types of threads and that is the age of the average modeler and what happened in the
70/80's
I am 30 years old and in the "younger" end of our clubs age group with only about 6 younger than me  

the question is how do we encourage new modelers to the hobby and get involved in simple steering and docking comps

this may be the start of getting people involved in these types of competitions

Well Said Gingyer
If we don't encourage youngsters into the hobby how will it survive, I don't believe younger people a less competitive than before, its just channelling that in the right direction (said him with a bus pass).
I think that by encouraging their on-the-water skills would be less intimidating than trying to compete with the top scale modellers even at club level
I do appreciate that clubs with 'open' water have problems with vandalism but surly we can design something of a course which it quick and easy to lay out.

Mike

[knoby]

i totally agree with Mike, modern communications should make it simpler, & as Colin said there are several ways to design a course & the point scoring system to make it a more even playing field for all types of models. The problem seems to be that not too many people, for various reasons,  wish to enter the competitions these days, & this unfortunately deters clubs from organising them. There is nothing more disheartening then spending loads of time & effort organising the event only to have a handful of people turn up.

i love the steering competitions & I wish I had a solution to the dwindling attendances. Better communications would enable clubs to inform people all over the country of their event, but many of the competitors would have to travel for many hours to attend & then  only get 10 or 15 Min's on the water.

Reading back, my 2 posts have sounded negative & I don't mean it to sound so, its just that the lack of regattas seems to be caused by the lack of enthusiasm for this type of event. Maybe if there were more events, the popularity would pick up again. i think many shy away from steering competitions, but find they enjoy it once they try it & we need to encourage everyone to try it at least once. but as ever it up to someone in the club to get off their backside & organise it & thats always the hardest thing. most clubs I have ever belonged to have a small core of people that do 95% of the work & unless one of them wants to set up the event then it doesn't get done.

cheers Glenn

[ministeve]

we too in the tug towing fraternity have suffered lack of willing to compete due either to a few being a bit too dedicated to towing or being able to practice to a level far beond the newcomer although this should not stop people taking part but i fear it may have. also we have and like big ones hehe  dead tows, i mean, the ships we tow are around 10 to 15 feet in length that may put people off too i know we lost some competitors from down south due to this. we have now started to organise none competitive days were we encourage people to come along and just have a go even if they have not got a tug that will keep up with modern all singing and dancing tugs they can use one of the tugs that can. hopefully this will spark a little interest that may grow also a few comps we have called pro-amms where we pair a pro with a so called amateur so far it has been great and hopefully give people a help onto the first or third rung of the ladder so to speak.


Steve

[Le Caux Deux]

Steve
it's places like Barlne Moor and the National Waterways Museum we need more of, both for Tug Towing and for Scale events. But when one suggests more permanent set up at some clubs they fear that they will be vandalised. I know at my club that seams to be the major worry but if the club uses heavy enough materials and is reasonably secure I don't think that would be a major concern.

The major problem seams to be persuading people to attend and participate.

One other thing which has been mentioned is the cost of travel 'just for a few minutes on the water' which is maybe something which needs to be addressed at events.

Mike

[triumphjon]

maybe the competition element needs to be addressed ?  or the fact that to buy the sort of model thats highly manouverable can be exepensive ? we have all had time at the local lake where an interested member of society asks all the important questions then come that of cost , its about £xxx , then they walk away , put off by the cost of buying a boat that would be competetive at sterring competition level ! maybe a good way of encouraging more people into the hobby would be for more clubs have model in which non club members could try their hand at sailing on the lake ? maybe we could have navigation events that entail docking a model as the full sized counterparts would do the world over ?  just a few thoughts ! jon

[roycv]

Hi all, in regard to scale sailing 'competitions', may I suggest the following.  This is not my idea but was proposed for full size use.

The public and I am sure we also like to see a cloud of sailing yachts etc on the water.

What was proposed was that as most of the craft are of different sizes a competition was difficult.  So, everyone sails together the boat at the front then takes up a position at the rear of the squadron and then the next leader does the same.

It calls into effect all the skills needed in controlling the model and the boats all stay together and everyone enjoys the spectacle.

regards Roy

[triumphjon]

then that will challenge all of the helmspersons on the water , sounds like more fun ! having witnessed some of the standards of some people they could find this a little challenging ? but it does put the skill in being able to handle your model onto a level feild .

[knoby]

i think you may have hit on a great idea there Roy. Not only would it test pilots skills, but it would also provide quite a spectacle for those watching. The pilots could also vote for the captain of the day, based on their performance overall. I would certainly give it a go 

Glenn

[triumphjon]

with penalty points for colliding with another model ? i think this could be good for both operators and as a spectacle ! when do we give it a go ? ?

[roycv]

Hi triumphjon. Glad you think the idea worth taking up.  May I suggest that for an infringement that the offending boat has to do a 360 deg turn and then re-join the flotilla.
If you are to award penalty points you are still thinking in competitive terms.

I think the object perhaps should be to remain in as close a formation as possible.  Perhaps an OOD should be appointed to oversee good behaviour.
Bad behaviour could be rewarded by appointing the naughty one as the next OOD! (Poacher turned game keeper!)

Maybe you can find out who is the best OOD?
kind regards Roy

[knoby]

since the original post was asking about competitions & how to make them more attractive, I don't think there would be a problem with a point system, there has to be a way of determining a winner. There are some good ideas here that would make an interesting & not too competitive regatta. Cant help thinking it might be ideal for a Mayhem weekend, as i doubt you will ever find a more diverse range of boats gathered together at once. & it would be a great opportunity to gauge reactions.

Glenn

[JayDee]

Hello,

How about a competition where MORE points are awarded for the sailing abilities of the boat.
We have all seen those wonderfully crafted boats residing on a table, sometimes under a Gazebo in case it rains, winning the competition !!.
Model boats should do what real boats do, that is SAIL like the real boat.

Some of the boats I have seen were so protected from the elements, they could have been made from Icing Sugar!.
I have hear the owners say - "I don't want to damage the paintwork", or the favourite one is - "But its Salt water".
Where do they think boats sail?, if not in the Sea.

If the Rules were changed to award 70% of the points for sailing, the winners circle would be drastically changed.
Then the "Icing Sugar" ones would have a hard time, but not before time in my opinion.

I am waiting for the Flack !!!!!!!!!!!!.

John.

[Le Caux Deux]

The reason I started this thread was to simulate more interest in the boat handling side of the hobby, by getting more clubs to organise events which are open to the rest of us. The events don't have to be competitive but I think that just adds to the fun.

I have always thought that having more boats on the water together adds more to the spectator enjoyment, and only getting in a couple of sails round a course is not really sometimes worth the travel involved. Why shouldn't other boats form part of the obstetrical on the course, they do in the real world. Maybe one way would be to have timed starts say one boat leaving the dock every few minutes, and having points deducted from your score if your boat was passed on the course, (a bit like pursuit racing) all competing boats would have to obey the rules of the sea.

My main interest is Tug and I am guaranteed some great Sundays out at in my area where Tug Towing events are held on a regular basis.
I also enjoy entering scale sailing events (not that I've had many clear rounds), not everyone is into Tug Towing, it is for the rest of the hobby to organise something liker number of events that the Tug Tower manage organise. And to attract an interest in the hobby from younger people.

Mike